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Q: To ATS' Christian Protestants of ALL types, denominational or not...

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posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Works don't save you without Christ your works are like a stinking rag before Father.

Why?
So, you're saying that inherently generous, kind people are hopelessly condemned, even if they've never heard of, nor believed the "texts" about Jesus' life and teachings?




posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I believe good works don't save a person, however we were saved in order to do good works and they should follow a legitimate born again person as their "fruit". (Eph. 2:8-10, James 2)

ETA: non-denominational Evangelical

edit on 23-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 06:38 PM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

. . . it certainly doesn't take away from the help I gave freely without expecting anything in return.

Jesus said God will raise you from the dead to reward you Himself.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 07:10 PM
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If I might, WildTimes, restate your question, framed in terms of how it came up in the previous thread (I am said "esteemed member" mentioned in the OP):

The proposition was made that if one did not give away their money to the poor, they would go to hell.

I replied that, from a Protestant perspective, this was an invalid proposition, because of the clear message that, if one did not perform good works (give away all your money to the poor,) they would not be saved (would go to hell.)

So, by Protestant theology, do good works contribute to one's salvation?

I would say no.

Similarly, are they indicative of salvation?

I would say no, because people who are not saved may also be seen to be performing good works.

But the key question, I think, would be "Do we expect to see people who are saved (or believe they are) doing good works?", to which I believe the answer would be yes, while recognizing that no conclusions may be drawn, if we see people who are saved not doing good works.
edit on 23-9-2012 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 07:48 PM
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Hi Wildtimes, we haven't been in the same thread for a while. Glad to run into you again. To your question as I understand it.

From the Protestant perspective, there is no possible way to earn your way into heaven. It can't be done. Do all the great works you can think of to do, and you will still go straight to hell. Because Christ will tell you... "I never knew you."

Salvation comes only through acceptance of Christ as prescribed in several places throughout the new testament. One being "Except you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins."

Works are a product of faith, fruits, and spirit for the Christian. And the former three are a product of salvation through Jesus Christ. So then "works" are the end product, or effect, rather than a causality.

What are works? Works are obedience and faithfulness in being led by the Holy Spirit. Only works that are spirit led bear fruit, and produce the will of God in your own life, and in the lives of those you are led to help, pray for, give to, etc.

For this reason, if a Christian is actually a Christian, their lives will bear it out publicly. "Ye shall know them by their fruits".

Ex-fundamentalist.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Works don't save you without Christ your works are like a stinking rag before Father.

Why?
So, you're saying that inherently generous, kind people are hopelessly condemned, even if they've never heard of, nor believed the "texts" about Jesus' life and teachings?


That is what Isaiah says. I'm not going to say everyone is hopelessly condemned, the parable of the goats and sheep he says people who did for his brothers and sisters would be rewarded, meaning his believers, both jewish and nonjewish. The ones who go into the fire are those who did nothing for them. During the millenial reign the earth will be populated by the nations who did not hurt or harm his bothers and sisters but aided them, because for every one of us they aided, they did it to him. Everytime they fed one of us who were poor and hungry, or gave us water when thirsty, or visited us in prison or when sick or dying they did it for him, this is what it means to be the Body of Christ which is why it is important to show love and aid all peoples, because you never know who we might be.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by EnochWasRight
 


What was the question?

How do you (if you are Protestant) think of 'sola fide' as it speaks to 'good works'?

I was brought up to believe that good works are just the right thing to do. Someone asserted that Protestants "think" faith alone is adequate and no good works are necessary. Others think that 'works' are something that naturally extend themselves when one has received "grace".

It seems to me that there is a question regarding whether it's enough to just say "I believe, okay fine", or whether behaving in a way that Jesus would have behaved is also important/required/expected...or not.....or irrelevant (invalid) altogether.

What do you believe?



For me, the question of faith alone is evidenced by works as a byproduct. From a faithful heart comes works naturally. Having faith means being faithful to God. God produces our faith by the life we are given, the destiny we partially determine and the nature of trials. We don't produce our faith, yet faith is the evidence that God is at work in and through us. Our actions show our faithfulness to God. God is love and love keeps no record of wrongs. It does keep a record of good works. Apart from works, faith is dead since there is nothing to evidence our faith. Works without faith is duplicity since we are essentially working for our self and not as a byproduct of faithfulness to God (God is Love). Love is evidence of faithfulness.

Here is a quote from something I wrote earlier on the topic.


James 2:26 - For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When I was young and growing in my faith, the verse above was always confusing to me. Do works arise from faith or does faith arise from works? Here is how I now see this verse:

Faith does not come from works and works do not save the soul. Faith saves the soul. A faith that is absent of works is dead. How can this paradox be understood?

Direction is important. In life, we can take reward, but suffering follows. Example: Smoking leads to cancer. Alternatively, if we seek to suffer for others, reward always follows. If we work for an education, we get a good job and paycheck. If we work hard at a job, the paycheck increases over time and our families benefit. These are all rewards which follow suffering. Faith is the same when compared.

If a person does works to get reward, does this lead to faith? If we seek faith first from suffering, What is the result?

Works can lead to reward if we are giving from faith. Taking reward is not faith. This amounts to duplicity since we say one thing and do another. If we are seeking reward by our works, then we are really after the reward. If we do works to avoid punishment, then we are again duplicitous. If we are seeking the supreme good of God by faith, then works are the byproduct. True reward then follows.



In the end, God knows: JOHN 2

23 Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Festival, many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name.[d] 24 But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. 25 He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.

I love the part of 1 Corinthians 13 where it says Love keeps no record of wrongs. This is grace. Grace is unmerited favor. The will of God is that we give and receive. Taking makes us a thief. Doing the will of God is being faithful. Works reflect the name we take. The name is the character of God. Taking the name apart from the character is taking it in vain. Faith is our faithfulness to the will of God.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

. . . it certainly doesn't take away from the help I gave freely without expecting anything in return.

Jesus said God will raise you from the dead to reward you Himself.


Jesus said.... according to a book. Ok, the queen of england also said she was appointed by God (that one made me laugh like hell). Obama at one point was positioning itself as the new messiah, which was just sad. Who to believe? So many choices.... LOL How about no one.

I am happy for you that you have some faith if it makes you think you feel all warm and fuzzy, however, I have no faith in the spoutings of unproven characters from potentially fictional historical allegories written by the victors of the day in any particular location of the world. There are so many religions on this planet, how to chose which is right? Or are they all wrong? Survey says! "Go with all wrong!"

I subscribe to a totally different outlook on what we consider to be reality, that being the holographic (the intentionally created interference pattern of bosons) virtual reality produced by some programmer and his team in the location in which we actually reside outside this "system" we call the universe. A place from which we are "tethered" somehow from that location to this virtual reality, or at least our perceptions of a reality.

There are some parallels in the Christian mythos concerning The Guff, also called The Library also called The Hall of Souls which may make my ideology a little easier to understand. There is still a creator who happens to be a mathematician and programmer, how else would one explain the innate beauty of the mathematics of the universe? All of "us" residing in this virtual reality have no free will since what we perceive as the passage of time and the interaction of subatomic particles are controlled from outside of this "system." We are simply passengers in what we perceive to be our own personal meat puppets. Characters in this virtually reality cannot stray from their "lines" and actions, I am what I am because that is the way my character was made, it's really quite simple. Our definitions of good and evil are really quite transitory and relativistic concerning our programming. Just my opinion though, none of us will really know what the deal is until we have left this "system."

We just might even all be the same person, so be good to family and anyone you meet, because you may be encountering another version of yourself.



The original story "The Egg" by Andy Weir

Cheers - Dave



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

. . . in the location in which we actually reside outside this "system" we call the universe. A place from which we are "tethered" somehow from that location to this virtual reality, or at least our perceptions of a reality.
I think once this was created, there was no longer an "outside", where the universe took up everything, so there is no going back because there is no longer a "back" to go to.

. . . you may be encountering another version of yourself.
That may be as good a religion as any, if you were to carry out what it should teach you (which you seen to do), like it shows in the video.
You probably learned it the hard way and maybe a way unique to you, where most people may be better served by traveling in a normal (not a terrorist cult or something destructive) religion.
edit on 23-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

. . . in the location in which we actually reside outside this "system" we call the universe. A place from which we are "tethered" somehow from that location to this virtual reality, or at least our perceptions of a reality.
I think once this was created, there was no longer an "outside", where the universe took up everything, so there is no going back because there is no longer a "back" to go to.

. . . you may be encountering another version of yourself.
That may be as good a religion as any, if you were to carry out what it should teach you (which you seen to do), like it shows in the video.
You probably learned it the hard way and maybe a way unique to you, where most people may be better served by traveling in a normal (not a terrorist cult or something destructive) religion.
edit on 23-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

You could be right, I could be right, we could both be wrong, who knows for sure? Personally, I have a science and engineering background so I do take a reductionist approach to the big picture and conduct both real and virtual experiments, as well as a few basic logistical thought experiments. There is an outside as far as I can tell via experimentation and you can provide yourself with pretty reasonable proof without spending $100k's in interferometry equipment and temporal analysis via proxy. There also appears to be a very definite communication methodology that resides "underneath" or "inside" what we call reality.

Regardless, I'm pretty happy with my ideology because it's so simple; hurt no one unless there is no other recourse, help when you can but don't interfere if you can't and leave your mark by leaving this a better place than the way you found it.

Doing the right thing does not require mainstream or any organized religion, it only requires that one do the right thing. Some people will, some people won't, it's all in the programming of the vehicle they inhabit, whether real or imagined and the part they play in this great charade ;-)

ETA: To reference your addition, yeah, I learned the hard way, four years in the killing fields and ten years of PTSD. On your better learned on a normal road, there is no normal apart from a relativistic perception of normal held out for us by "people" who simply want to control us. From a "reality" standpoint, when I look at the crap the MSM passes off as normal I just shudder to think of how many people lap up that crap. Normal is now corrupt politicians controlled by a usury cartel of thieves and liars. We are fed GMO food with just enough poison to keep big pharma and the medical/insurance industry going using a slow kill methodology. We have wholesale global gambling in the "temples" of a financial system skewed to screw the many and profit the few, the house always wins you know. We have a bunch sick puppies in the music industry that are so stupid that they spout off about selling their souls for fame and fortune. We have organized religion using fear and extortion, the same methods terrorist use, to garner additional wealth and control. We have a military/industrial complex telling us war is peace when actually war is profit and it goes on an on. Yeah, normal.....

Cheers - Dave
edit on 9/23.2012 by bobs_uruncle because: the ETA



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 11:04 PM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

Regardless, I'm pretty happy with my ideology because it's so simple; hurt no one unless there is no other recourse, help when you can but don't interfere if you can't and leave your mark by leaving this a better place than the way you found it.
I just don't think it (in the above quote) could be a program, and it has to be something that was arrived at through a process, whether it was living as everyone in the world, or some other way.
I think it is smart to optimize all aspects for a better chance at success, even if it means being indoctrinated into a religion, with the caveat that not every one of them are especially good for the process.
edit on 23-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

Regardless, I'm pretty happy with my ideology because it's so simple; hurt no one unless there is no other recourse, help when you can but don't interfere if you can't and leave your mark by leaving this a better place than the way you found it.
I just don't think it (in the above quote) could be a program, and it has to be something that was arrived at through a process, whether it was living as everyone in the world, or some other way.
I think it is smart to optimize all aspects for a better chance at success, even if it means being indoctrinated into a religion, with the caveat that not every one of them are especially good for the process.
edit on 23-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19


I thought God only had one son? Your quote above has the plural, sons.

If I were forced to make a choice out of all religions, I would become a Buddhist. It seems to be the only religion that addresses the resolution of inner conflict as the key in the search for spiritual enlightenment and has the same basic tenets I follow. All other organized religions use fear and extortion as the basis of expanding centralized positions of power and wealth through "colonialization" or expanding membership under the false premise of spiritual enlightenment. Just my opinion, but I've been around ;-)

Cheers - Dave
edit on 9/23.2012 by bobs_uruncle because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

I thought God only had one son? Your quote above has the plural, sons.

Oh, you noticed that, did you? We need to become them.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 07:35 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


But the key question, I think, would be "Do we expect to see people who are saved (or believe they are) doing good works?", to which I believe the answer would be yes, while recognizing that no conclusions may be drawn, if we see people who are saved not doing good works.


I think I understand you. Thank you for the response.

Branching off of your above statement, then, do you mean: "No conclusions may be drawn" because we are not seeing the good works, therefore we have no observation from which to make an assessment of the state of the individual's soul.?



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 


But the key question, I think, would be "Do we expect to see people who are saved (or believe they are) doing good works?", to which I believe the answer would be yes, while recognizing that no conclusions may be drawn, if we see people who are saved not doing good works.


I think I understand you. Thank you for the response.

Branching off of your above statement, then, do you mean: "No conclusions may be drawn" because we are not seeing the good works, therefore we have no observation from which to make an assessment of the state of the individual's soul.?


I see it as being a matter of if good works are not required for salvation (point one) and they are not indicative of salvation (point two,) then we can't really conclude anything by those observations. After all, a person may be extremely charitable, but do it anonymously, or they might be ostentatious in their giving, but that's all they do -- when I was the treasurer of my old church, I was the only one who knew who gave what, and some donations would have been seen as being "out of character" with the person giving, but they were what they were, and it's between God and them.

In other words, I take a bit of umbrage at the old standby hymn, "They'll Know We are Christians by Our Love", which implies that non-Christians do not love, or that the love that Christians do have is something readily identifiable as a sign of salvation.

The counter to all that, "Do we expect to see people who are saved (or believe they are) NOT doing evil works" is a statement that I heartily endorse. We all sin, but there should be an observable reduction in the amount of it, an indication that one is trying to apply Christ's teachings to their thoughts and actions.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


The counter to all that, "Do we expect to see people who are saved (or believe they are) NOT doing evil works" is a statement that I heartily endorse. We all sin, but there should be an observable reduction in the amount of it, an indication that one is trying to apply Christ's teachings to their thoughts and actions.

On this point we are in total agreement.
Thanks again.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

I thought God only had one son? Your quote above has the plural, sons.

Oh, you noticed that, did you? We need to become them.


Well, when you find the cheat codes to this movie or game that we laughingly call reality, let me know. Needing or wanting to become "them" is totally different than being them. Seems to me there would have to be some kind of intervention from the head programmer, like a "player" upgrade ;-)

Cheers - Dave



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

Seems to me there would have to be some kind of intervention from the head programmer, like a "player" upgrade ;-)
I was trying to do a Welsh dialect a little, kind of kidding because I am laughing to myself that you seem to be the first person to have noticed that, or at least make a comment on it.
Right, an upgrade.
Now some people imagine that how it works is that all-of-a-sudden people find themselves in a better place, then being there makes you a better person. What I get from that verse is that first we become better, then our environment gets better in response, considering that we have acquired god-like abilities to make our thoughts reality. The more like God we become the more "real" our reality becomes.
edit on 24-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

Seems to me there would have to be some kind of intervention from the head programmer, like a "player" upgrade ;-)
I was trying to do a Welsh dialect a little, kind of kidding because I am laughing to myself that you seem to be the first person to have noticed that, or at least make a comment on it.
Right, an upgrade.
Now some people imagine that how it works is that all-of-a-sudden people find themselves in a better place, then being there makes you a better person. What I get from that verse is that first we become better, then our environment gets better in response, considering that we have acquired god-like abilities to make our thoughts reality. The more like God we become the more "real" our reality becomes.
edit on 24-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19


Interesting proposition, but I think it's a pipe dream. Unless one wants to partake of copious quantities of mind altering drugs that have the companion effect of activating hitherto unknown process in the brain, I think we are subject to the requirements of Darwinian evolution, hence time and adaptation.

I really don't think there is a high probability that we are going to see a "miracle" in our lifetime or even multiple lifetimes where we suddenly all grow a new brain by way of some supernatural manifestation LOL. But I could be wrong....

Cheers - Dave



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by bobs_uruncle
 

I really don't think there is a high probability that we are going to see a "miracle" in our lifetime or even multiple lifetimes where we suddenly all grow a new brain by way of some supernatural manifestation LOL. But I could be wrong....
However many lifetimes it takes does not detract from the responsibility to engage the process in this life, the one we have now and are sure about, regardless of what exactly may lay ahead otherwise.
By me saying that, I am not implying that I think you don't know that but mean it for also a larger audience, meaning whoever else besides me and you who might run across this for whatever reason.
edit on 24-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)





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