Proof NASA is hiring slave labor...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tracehd1

 

You teach a guy to fish for that fish, you have given him the greatest gift of all...to work for himself and not to take from others.

That's the idea.

As part of that agreement, NASA Ames officials developed the educational plan to train inmates to build the small satellite components. The partnership program is designed primarily to help "a few select inmates develop their machining skills to make them more employable in the aerospace industry upon release,"

www.space.com...

But you seem a bit...confused. First you talk about the poor guys being treated like slaves then you complain about them getting something they don't "deserve".

Who are the poor guys? I never said I was worried about prisoners being treated like slaves. I said and implied that NASA WAS PAYING FOR SLAVE LABOR. Because...please re-read the because above so I don't have to repeat myself. Thanks

I will give you a hint...I feel prisoners should not get that 2nd chance when we out here need the first chance. Instead of paying out welfare cost...and food stamps...take that money along w/ the money I'm paying in Taxes to NASA and allow people like me to support my family by working. All the while giving me the opportunity to make 50,000 grand a year...wow

I seem a bit confused huh? A little condescending with that remark. You always seem to have a whole lotta ego which seems to confuse you when making your finer points.

reply to post by benrl


Hi Ben..I apologize for not looking at your name when responding...I like you, your a pretty smart, articulate, guy.

I addressed in your post what I didn't agree with. And I was getting a little frustrated because it seems instead of really reading my points people are giving their replies w/ out reading what I've said or they wouldn't have said what they said. Errrrr lol And yes..Phague did the same thing in my opinion....put his horse before his cart, which is evident again in his reply.

Again...concerning your other arguments...I tended to agree because I made the same points in my own words...didn't I?

reply to post by tracehd1

I feel prisoners should not get that 2nd chance when we out here need the first chance.

Ok. Let's just stack 'em up in jail forever. Never let 'em out....or let 'em out with exactly the same skill set they went in with. Good idea. You know this is about a few "select inmates", not the general bunch?

take that money along w/ the money I'm paying in Taxes to NASA and allow people like me to support my family by working.

Working doing what? Are you a skilled machinist?

Have you looked into community vocational programs? They don't generally cost quite as much as getting a degree. In a lot of places they are free for students.

reply to post by tracehd1


My main point of contention is the thought that this could be better spent elsewhere, when it really can't.

The cost Nasa would spend on prison slave labor, instead of say on the open market in the us would make it prohibitive and in the end not get the same bang for the buck.

I think the flaw is the thought they could of spent it outside of the prison system, if they had you might end up with part of the project barely being funded (say open a factory, train employees, etc) as opposed to what is accomplished by using an infrastructure and system that already exists in the prisons.

It seems nasa gets beat up for ANYTHING they do, this strikes me as fiscally responsible of them,

Its simply them stretching their dollar as best they could, and it does have positives of giving training and life skills to people who otherwise wouldn't of gotten it.

Many times prisons are filled with underprivileged low income drug offenders, the only difference from those on the outside in dire straits is they have yet to cross the police state we now find ourselves in.

But again thats all debatable and that is simply my opinion.

reply to post by Phage



Well that changes it doesn't it? A select few inmates. In my opinion...no!!!

I'm not saying prisoners get the gushy treatment. But...I don't agree w/ what and how they're treated now. I don't care what degree of criminal activity was done. You don't get to sit in the day room or your cell all day. You don't get a job in the prison making furniture...working in the kitchen, doing laundry. You get to work 12 to 14 hour days in the sun doing hard ass labor. You get to tea down abandoned houses that are a breeding ground for criminal activity.....

You get to clean up vacant lots, highways, city streets, fields, of all the garbage that morons throw out on the ground instead of waste cans.

You get to work hard and maybe just maybe you won't go back to prison.

reply to post by tracehd1

You get to work hard and maybe just maybe you won't go back to prison.

It's been pretty well shown that doesn't work in most cases. On the other hand learning a valuable skill is different.

BTW, please don't get the impression I'm "soft" on criminals. I'm not. I just don't understand your outrage at giving a few of the more promising inmates some skills that could help them stay out of prison. Ever see The Birdman of Alcatraz?

reply to post by Phage


I wasn't done w/ my last reply to you... I had a 911 to take care of....

Phage....who are you willing to give 20,000.00 dollars to....the young Student? Or the Mother and Father that has never been to prison, that cannot afford an education?

If you say the Prisoner I know you're lying for the benefit of dis-agreeing w/ me. Our current Prison system is not working. And I know the Prison system and no...not because I broke any laws. Most hardened prisoners will throw out there that they don't mind the (let's say ) 5-10 yrs they just got...they can do it standing on their heads!! Har har har. 3 hots and a cot.

Did you know that Joe Arpaio took away cable T.V. In his jail...turned it off! But, turned it right back on again because it's a federal law these guys get cable T.V. Are you kidding me? So if it's a federal law why am I paying for my cable??

You and many others act like we owe it to these guys to rehab them. In my opinion...no we don't. I Tracy have known the difference between right and wrong for many years now. I can honestly say I started realizing the difference around 2 yrs of age. I knew that biting my twin brother was wrong. And I knew it hurt him. I also knew that if I bit him there was going to be something coming I didn't like. I may not have not been able to articulate it, but I knew.

You must be 18 yrs old legally to enter adult Prison. The Majority of the people have said that 18 yrs and older know the difference between right and wrong and if you break the law we will hold you accountable for that.

When you then go into prison after breaking a law and you get Cable T.V., Education, Counseling, Access to Computers, Telephones, Day rooms w/ Games and Books, Weight Lifting programs, Movies, Free Rent, Free Food, a Job....where's the incentive not to re- offend?

In regards now to my point about NASA...they get free labor and the prisoner gets an education to possibly be able to go out into Society and find a job making 50,000.00. A student that has never committed a crime gets to go to Iraq, into an illeagle war so that he can afford an education so that if he lives he can get a job pulling in 50,000.00 a year. That makes absolutely no sense and not fair. Send the prisoners to Iraq to fight an illeagle war.

Instead of emplyeeing a select group of inmates...how about you hire a select few citizens that need a job in able to survive? It's a proven fact that people offend and re- offend because of economical reasons. So it makes sense to employee people on the "Outside" so they don't get desperate and break any laws so that they can live. People have to go to jail to get a decent job?

NASA's money....


Hey, Didn't Taxpayers Pay For Those Patents NASA Is Auctioning Off? from the i-thought-so dept ReallyEvilCanine writes in to let us know that Ocean Tomo, the patent auctioning company has worked out an agreement to auction off a package of 25 NASA patents covering things like signal processing, GPS for spacecraft and sensor technologies. Ocean Tomo always presents itself as somehow creating value from patents, but always seems to ignore how its version of creating value often means significant value lost to actual innovators. In this case, there's an even bigger question: didn't taxpayers pay for those patents by funding NASA? So why is some company now going to benefit from them, while locking the public out? In effect, the public is paying twice (at potentially inflated prices) for these inventions. Yet, you won't hear that from Ocean Tomo or the press reports about this auction, which note: "Creating a market for patented technology funded by NASA benefits both the government and the commercial sector that will take advantage of it." That leaves out the taxpayers who funded this in the first place and is simply incorrect. It harms the commercial sector by making them pay again for something. If NASA wanted to benefit the commercial sector, it could have placed those patents in the public domain, so that the commercial sector could compete to do something useful with them, thereby spurring on competition and more innovation.

Is patents the only game in town for NASA...I think not. However....the money that NASA gets from tax-payers, me, would be best spent by giving the Student, The Family member that's trying to support their family, that has not committed a crime, those are the people that should get our tax dollars and not to the Man that raped your Mother or stole her retirement. As a tax payer, if anyone needs Government money to survive ie Food Stamps, General Assistence, I want them to work for it instead of being able to sit at home and collecting checks.

Prisoners act entitled and they should absolutely have no rights... They gave up those rights when they committed a crime because they did know the difference between right and wrong. Period

reply to post by Phage


I haven't seen that movie no...I'm willing to watch it. I have studied social issues for many yrs...our current way of doing things is destroying and might collapse everything we've worked hard for.

You want to talk about Prisoner's becoming bitter because they don't get this or that? They broke the law but god for-bid if we hurt they're feelings!? Yes...I'm really angry about this. Many good, fine, up-standing people, that have broken no laws....should benefit from tax dollars, receive a job possibly making 50,000.00 a yr as an incentive for doing the right thing in life. As I said earlier...many have to put their life on the line in order to receive the same benefits as a prisoner, or sacrifice the education they want and dream about because their financial status in life will only pay for a course in taking blood pressure...that's just moronic and ridiculous.....and more importantly....Un-fair.

Ok...it's late. Thank-you so far....for a great debate!!!

America used to have Prisoners make license plates that the military and Federal Agencies used on their vehicles.

Then after 9-11 some smart politician created a BUSINESS making the license plates for the Federal Government instead....and get this....this guy is a GENIUS.....he started putting EXPIRATION DATES on those license plates to FORCE the Federal Government to buy more of his license plates.

Frekin Genius wasn't he?

Why is NASA using prisoners to make something for them? Follow the money. Somebody is pocketing ALOT of money in this...and it ain't the prisoners. Instead of NASA hiring 3 machinists to make these they have the prisoners do it....and WHOEVER has the contract to build the satellite these go on.....will be able to POCKET alot of money as these pieces will be made for FREE for them.

NASA isn't paying the prisoners. So yes, you could call this slave labor.

How does one "hire" slaves? That's a contradiction in terms.

OP, your thesis is flawed from the get go.

I don't have anything profound, just trying to rearrange the blocks that make up this discussion.

There seems to be three discussions going on; is this the best use of NASA's money, is it fair, and is it better to give the assistance to criminals than to non-criminals?

The best use of the government's money? You mean you think anybody in government cares about that? Take the half a billion they put into Solyndra and use that. (Yes, I know it's all been flushed away, but the point remains that money is currently be spent without regard to efficiency, but rather, does it meet a goal? Back to Solyndra for an example.) Obama would be delighted to sign some kind of a jobs bill program right now, regardless of cost.

Is it fair? She makes a pretty strong argument against prisoners getting benefits not available to citizens. Fairness isn't my favorite argument, actually I dislike it, but if it's going to be brought up, I think she's right.

I think the strongest case for the NASA program is the third. It's "better" to give the assistance to criminals than non-criminals. It makes me feel slimy because, basically, it means the prisoners are extorting the benefits from us and we have to give in to their demands. Ok, I know that was flamboyant, but I just wanted to see if you were awake.

It works like this. "If we don't give them training, they will be released without skills and return to a life of crime, terrorizing our neighborhoods. On the other hand, if we just deprive a regular, law-abiding citizen, we'll be fine. We know how to handle those."

I could certainly express the arguments more clearly, but I think you get the idea.

reply to post by tracehd1

...you can only go so far in job corps. I don't think they offer class's in being a Dr. If one wants that field, or how about class's to be an attorney? They're limited.

Yes, they are limited and they vary dramatically by location on quality and ratio of criminal to disadvantaged kid looking for a way out. All, in my experience, are of the under class and without much regard to race. A JCC in Montana that does Forestry among other things (or did a long time ago, anyway) was ranked among the best in the nation and a cousin in-law sure enjoyed it. While the personal experience I had in Clearfield, Utah and Albuquerque, N.M. (anyone on here I might have known? lol ) were more like protected drug havens (Federal Reservation...as much as a Military Base in terms of local laws) and really rough places to be. I recall one person in Clearfield saying he'd never personally seen a black person before that...and another saying they'd come out of L.A. like me and saw far more contraband on-center than ever on the streets back home. I couldn't disagree...

Much could be done to make the Job Corp Centers work...and this would be a great program to use as a start... You're right. JCC's run to the certification level as opposed to Associates degree. Although Advanced Placement and College General Ed could sure be done in them. That would give the kids a meaningful base beyond just getting the GED.

Until then, at least the prisoners parole out with a skill and not just the need for money and no more way to get it than they had when they went in.

Originally posted by tracehd1

What I'm saying is that it's our tax dollars and I would rather see people like me, kids out of high school getting that education so that we can go out and get that 50,000k a year job. Not that hard to understand is it??

Do you want an education or a skill....to very different things. You keep saying education and they are not getting one that you might assume would be something like a degree, but more as in learning a skill, plus what exactly are the jobs? Are you sure you want one?

Lastly what do we do with those that show signs of positive rehabilitation, do we want to see them enter society as they were or even worst, or better, so they don't show up in your house one night?

Looking into this it was...

The partnership adheres to all the regulatory guidelines within the Prison Industries Enhancement certification program (PIE), which allows states and local governments to create work opportunities for prisoners.

NASA doesn’t have any plans to use the components in space at this time, according to NASA Ames Associate Director of Engineering Adriana Cardenas. “Depending on the quality, we may consider the possibility that they could be used as test articles,”

So the whole thing is just a part of the PIE program to rehabilitate prisoners, and the REAL parts are still made by your honest citizen. There are many Government programs...hopefully this is not one of them that you strive for......

reply to post by Pervius


Ty for your input!!! Really appreciated and I agree. We should always follow the money !!!

Originally posted by switching yard
How does one "hire" slaves? That's a contradiction in terms.

OP, your thesis is flawed from the get go.

What's flawed is the fact that you address no points I make. Instead....you pick on me for my title. Maybe if you would have read the thread I authored, You would have clearly understood why I think NASA Is using slave labor. Even back in the day when we did have slaves, 3 hots and a cot for them would have been considered a form of payment. Room and board.

You my nit- picky friend is what's wrong w/ our Country. When I started this thread ( I'll do it just for you in the future) I should have put a warning that my thesis is soooo flawed because I don't know the rules of a thesis. All I do know...is that in my heart and mind, I believe NASA is hiring Slave Labor because compared to what they would have to pay a person on the out-side, at least minimum....is nothing compared to what they are paying for prison workers. Hell, NASA had to make sure that the Prisoners had the materials to do the job. You did read my whole " thesis" right??

LoL

There are many, many reasons for why I think like I have. So, why don't you read the thread....and join in on the debate. Or, do you make it a habit to go and correct all flaws never mind the content there-in?

Originally posted by tracehd1

Originally posted by switching yard
How does one "hire" slaves? That's a contradiction in terms.

OP, your thesis is flawed from the get go.

What's flawed is the fact that you address no points I make. Instead....you pick on me for my title. Maybe if you would have read the thread I authored

a) you put this thread out there and absolutely everyone has the right to pick on you for the p!ss poor choice of words in the title. Own your mistakes.

b) I did read most of the thread. It's much ado about nothing. You seem to prefer to have prisons as pure punishment. For reasons I can't fathom you ignore the fact that every prisoner who is reformed (even if the chances are slim) will save the society a pretty penny, if they hopefully avoid incarceration for the remainder of their lives, and it will save some people from being victims of future crimes.

By the way if you really want to enroll into a vocational school and learn to be a machinist, or some similar profession, I don't see what would stop you.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by tracehd1

What I'm saying is that it's our tax dollars and I would rather see people like me, kids out of high school getting that education so that we can go out and get that 50,000k a year job. Not that hard to understand is it??

Do you want an education or a skill....to very different things. You keep saying education and they are not getting one that you might assume would be something like a degree, but more as in learning a skill, plus what exactly are the jobs? Are you sure you want one?

Lastly what do we do with those that show signs of positive rehabilitation, do we want to see them enter society as they were or even worst, or better, so they don't show up in your house one night?

Looking into this it was...

The partnership adheres to all the regulatory guidelines within the Prison Industries Enhancement certification program (PIE), which allows states and local governments to create work opportunities for prisoners.

NASA doesn’t have any plans to use the components in space at this time, according to NASA Ames Associate Director of Engineering Adriana Cardenas. “Depending on the quality, we may consider the possibility that they could be used as test articles,”

So the whole thing is just a part of the PIE program to rehabilitate prisoners, and the REAL parts are still made by your honest citizen. There are many Government programs...hopefully this is not one of them that you strive for......

edit on 23-9-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

What I want is education or a skill and I want that for others that broke no laws. You along w/ others keep asking me the same questions when I have answered them in some cases over and over.

To the prisoners that show promise...hahaha I and others show lots of promise to, but in the case I've provided we don't get that promise because we have committed NO crimes. What I want for prisoners I want them to pay for their crimes and I want them to work their fingers to the bone doing it because maybe if they are forced to not enjoy prison, they won't go back!!

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by tracehd1

Originally posted by switching yard
How does one "hire" slaves? That's a contradiction in terms.

OP, your thesis is flawed from the get go.

What's flawed is the fact that you address no points I make. Instead....you pick on me for my title. Maybe if you would have read the thread I authored

a) you put this thread out there and absolutely everyone has the right to pick on you for the p!ss poor choice of words in the title. Own your mistakes.

b) I did read most of the thread. It's much ado about nothing. You seem to prefer to have prisons as pure punishment. For reasons I can't fathom you ignore the fact that every prisoner who is reformed (even if the chances are slim) will save the society a pretty penny, if they hopefully avoid incarceration for the remainder of their lives, and it will save some people from being victims of future crimes.

By the way if you really want to enroll into a vocational school and learn to be a machinist, or some similar profession, I don't see what would stop you.

O, your right!!!! They do have a right to pick...but to those that I pointed out were picking did not have a right because they did NOT read the thread in its entirety. So you, need to try and understand the points I'm making so you don't embarrass yourself also and have me point them out. I'm trying to help you out. Thank me later.

I can't help that you find my thread and what I find interesting " to much to do w/ nothing " my advice, pick those threads and people that have something to do w/ something your interested in. I will enroll in school when I can afford it. Geezzzzz I sure do wish that NASA would offer me a short educational class on how to put their satellites together so I could go out into the world and possibly make 50,000.00 but then again....thats what this thread was about...so I guess it does have something to do w/ something. Wow

"Hopefully it will stop them from creating future crimes?"Guess what....I or others don't owe it to these guys so that hopefully they won't go out and committ future crimes. Your way of thinking hasn't stopped future crimes. Your way of thinking is broken. Our prison systems prove that that we need re-hab on the outside, jobs on the out-side so people aren't desperate enough to committ the crimes to begin with. A good College education is so costly that only a certain sector of the public can afford to go.

Just so you know..these points were made. You must have missed it because you read " most " of the thread but " not all "

reply to post by charles1952


Thank- you Charles for your added input. It totally makes sense. But more importantly I appreciate you adding to the discussion in a positive way.

Like the guy that attacks me on my expertise in Thesis. Instead of debating the subject...or reading why I chose to use the word slave labor and we all talk about that...he feels the need to "dig" me to lift his own ego up up and away.

I think that's a huge and deadly ploy they use in politics to avoid the issue's being discussed. Avoidment. Classic. The blatant way people try to embarrass others so again they appear superior. If this wasn't the case they would have discussed the issue's I bring up w/ Prisoner's getting jobs we need on the outside so we don't go out and committ crimes to survive and what NASA's getting out of it.

I will repeat,

I also do not think the guy that raped someone's daughter deserves that job more then The guy that doesn't committ a crime.

This is what it costs to incarcarate 1 prisoner in California:

www.lao.ca.gov...

This cost estimate was for 2008-09