13-year-old girl sentenced to death in Iran

Originally posted by Hellmutt

Originally posted by Deckard_BR26354
I think the question is, do we have the right to impose Western values on Eastern cultures? I'm not sure that we do.

Are we just to sit back and watch while they�re murdering children (even if it�s their own)?

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe anyone has the right to kill anyone else, no matter what 'crime' they've committed, but I do think that there is no simple solution to this. If this 'punishment' is rooted in a belief system then you're not going to be able to persuade them to change their mind. If they strongly believe that this is the will of their god(s) then convincing them otherwise literally goes against what they believe (and fear).

I'm not saying we should sit back and do nothing, I just think that these sort of 'crimes' are seen in a totally different context by some countries and while they may acknowledge our objections, ultimately they're not obliged to accept our values and will see the objectors as 'interfering'.

I don't know what the answer is.

but i do respect anyones beliefs in any religion that they choose.

How can you respect the Shariah Islamic Law that is in Iran? How can you respect their beliefs if this is what THEY believe in?

Originally posted by zurvan
We will get rid of fuc**ing Islam

sooner or later. Now that the war has started we have a better chance. Iran tried fighting islam

and its sick barbaric laws for centuries but we could not succeed, but that all was in the past future will be different.

I have said it before as well Islam

and its rules/laws are evil.

At least now it seems that the world it paying some sort of attention to Irans problem and that is bound to be good.

Help us Free our Women, our Children and our Men.




Bombing Iran without liberating it won't fix anything.

can please somebody tell me why it is that I had to be warned and loose 250 points because of this post? it seems a bit unfair to get punished for expressing ones mind


I am a bit confused

Juvenile Executions are not new, sadly, I live in a state that participates in them. Helllllooooooooo Texas!

I started a thread on this a while ago...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by zurvan

can please somebody tell me why it is that I had to be warned and loose 250 points because of this post? it seems a bit unfair to get punished for expressing ones mind

I am a bit confused

Kinda sounds like hate and racism if you ask me.
I think thats why the Mods hit you with the warning. They don't stop you from posting your opinion but when you phrase it with vulgar comments then they warn you.

Still confused?
T&C
2.) You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.



[edit on 16-10-2004 by evecasino]

Originally posted by zurvan

can please somebody tell me why it is that I had to be warned and loose 250 points because of this post? it seems a bit unfair to get punished for expressing ones mind

I am a bit confused

I am sure you have a u2u (from the moderator that warned you) explaining the warning (if it isn't enough, u2u the moderator who warned you for further explanation). Judging by the content of your post it appears you violated the Terms And Conditions Of Use.


[edit on 16/10/2004 by Mirthful Me]

If you are a Muslim, you MUST read this section and watch the video to increase your knowledge of Islam. Increasing one's knowledge about Islam is farz (compulsory)!
Also, you must force yourself to like stoning, because Mohammed ordered it. If you are afraid to watch the video or have watched it and are disgusted by it, you will likely be punished in Hell for Kufr.

What happens in Stoning?
In stoning to death, the victims's hands are tied behind their backs and their bodies are put in a cloth sack. Then, this human "package" is buried in a hole, with only the victims heads showing above the ground. If its a woman, she is buried upto her shoulders. This is to give her an seemingly equal (but nonetheless impossible) chance to escape recognizing her lesser physical strength.
After the hapless individual has been secured in the hole, people start chanting "Allah hu Akbar" (meaning, God is great), and throw palm sized stones at the head of the victim from a certain distance (a circle is drawn).
The stones are thrown until the person dies or until he/she escapes out of the hole and crosses the circle. Escaping is impossible, given that the individual's hands are tied behind their backs and they are buried in a hole upto their necks or shoulders (in the case of males and females respectively).
Naturally, the procedure is extremely barbaric and bloody.

www.apostatesofislam.com...

Right, i've just been to this site about stoning, and it's just wrong. They say the "merciful" Allah? Islam is a very dangerous religion. I'm not up to scrath on it fully but it does appear to rely heavilly on the religious writings with little adaptation for modern society

Guess i'l never understand it being from the West, but still.... This aint right what's going on here. If your a muslim and you dont watch or you get upset by watching a stoning you go to hell?...

Seriously, i dont think that is right. I wont continue to bash islam as i dont want penalty points but does it not seem that these nations laws have not progressed in 2000 years??

Thoughts plz, i'd like to learn more about this.

I wont continue to bash islam as i dont want penalty points but does it not seem that these nations laws have not progressed in 2000 years??

Personally, I think all religion stifles the progress of any country.

[edit on 16/10/2004 by Deckard_BR26354]

Originally posted by Snoopdopey
[Seriously, i dont think that is right. I wont continue to bash islam as i dont want penalty points but does it not seem that these nations laws have not progressed in 2000 years??

There is nothing wrong with an enlightened discussion of the issues. Its natural to disagree on a variety of topics. If we all agreed then ATS would be a dull place indeed. However there are certain things that are not allowed on ATS. Please review the Terms and Conditions of the site for clarification. Simply taking a stace against a religion will not earn a warning. An honest forthwith discussion of your viewpoint and others will help us all in our collective mission of "Denying Ignorance".

On that note, I think we have spent enough energy discussing the hows and whys of warning and should get back to the topic at hand.

Thanks
FredT

Fred i'm not happy with that 20 point penalty for excessive quoting, i've seen far larger quotes by admin of this site and i doubt they will get points against them.

Is that excessive, it was quite small and on topic in my opinion.

Hey Snoop, look up to the bar. On one end there's the Suggestion button and on the other Member Center for u2u's. 2 ways to get your point across without putting up here for all to see.

Originally posted by zurvan


Help us Free our Women, our Children and our Men.

Bombing Iran without liberating it won't fix anything.

But look at what hapened in Iraq? THe on difference is that the Iranian PEOPLE must rise up, the Iraq's failed to do this...Iran must IMPLODE. The US has been burned , by allies with knives to the back. Our own peple at each others throat......for this I am sorry...We will not be invading Iran in teh near future...But if the People rise up, we sure as hell can help.

Originally posted by edsinger
We will not be invading Iran in teh near future...But if the People rise up, we sure as hell can help.

Didn't Bush Senior promise the Shiites that the U.S. would 'help them out' if they rose up against Saddam after the first Gulf War in the 90's? Well, the Shiites did just that, the U.S. didn't 'help them out' and many were massacred.

Not much of an incentive for the Iranian people, is it?


[edit on 16/10/2004 by Deckard_BR26354]

Thanks, Intrepid

I'm still coming to grips with the regulations, and i just wasn't very happy with the decision.

But again on topic - I dont think leaving this issue will solve any problems, if there continues to be terrorist attacks then we (the West) will have no choice but to defend our nations, even if that means a religious war against Islam.

I'm sorry to all the non-fanatical peace loving muslims who have to put up with these fanatics. This minority are creating more racial hatred in the west, and it will ultimately end up with more muslim kids being bullied at school, and more race attacks on the streets. They should do their best to silence these fanatics, because if they dont then we're going to have realy big problems over the next 50 years

Originally posted by Snoopdopey
Right, i've just been to this site about stoning, and it's just wrong. They say the "merciful" Allah? Islam is a very dangerous religion. I'm not up to scrath on it fully but it does appear to rely heavilly on the religious writings with little adaptation for modern society

Islam is no more or less dangerous than Christianity, the danger is Fundamentalism, which transcends individual religions and is an affliction of mankind. Each religion has had it's "dark" time, (Crusades and Inquisition anyone?), the question is "when are the mainstream (majority?) Muslims going to squelch the fundamentalist Muslims"? This has to come from within the Islamic faith itself, a change in interpretation and philosophy will have to be internally instilled upon the followers of Islam.

Seriously, i dont think that is right. I wont continue to bash islam as i dont want penalty points but does it not seem that these nations laws have not progressed in 2000 years??

Actually Islam is just about 1400 years old, and the nations you refer to have just recently shed the Imperialist shackles of Europe (most of the Middle Eastern countries were controlled by England, France and Italy). After short stints with Western Style dictators/monarchs, Islamic Fundamentalist have risen up and gained control. That being said, it appears the liberators have become the oppressors, and soon the shackles of these leaders will be cast off for the far more rewarding incarceration of Democracy.

A brief history of Muhammad the prophet.

Very interesting link MirthfulMe, At least i have a basic understanding of what Islam is about now.

The last paragraph in the site you linked says, Mohammed ended up having 10 wives over his life and had a female slave as well.

This is interesting, because in the Christian bible, there were slaves as well so maybe the non fanatical muslims will eventaully over run they're fundamentalist leaders and create a decent democracy through time.

This leads me back to the original stoning of the 13 year old girl for Incest... I'm sure i read in the bible that after God destroyed a town because of homosexuality, the 2 daughters of a man took their father up to the mountains and had sex with him, and they were not punished? I thought the Koran was loosly based on the Bible, as it mentioned Mary and Jesus?

I'l try and find the exact page, it was near the start, in Genesis.

[edit on 16-10-2004 by Snoopdopey]

Originally posted by edsinger
This is just sick! Bu are we any better?

Heck you should go along with it after all that is the punishment in the Bible also, except BOTH would be stoned.

Or does the laws in the Bible only count when being used against a group of people you dont like?

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)



If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.



[edit on 16-10-2004 by Amuk]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Kill the rape victim

Women really are second maybe third class citizens ( I bet they treat camels better) in Iran.

Actually it is common to measure the worth of a woman(!) by camels. At least inside the arabian culture! Sick

Originally posted by Deckard_BR26354

Originally posted by edsinger
We will not be invading Iran in teh near future...But if the People rise up, we sure as hell can help.

Didn't Bush Senior promise the Shiites that the U.S. would 'help them out' if they rose up against Saddam after the first Gulf War in the 90's? Well, the Shiites did just that, the U.S. didn't 'help them out' and many were massacred.

Not much of an incentive for the Iranian people, is it?


[edit on 16/10/2004 by Deckard_BR26354]

That is my worry yes, but Bush Jr. seems to be a man of his word. But that should make the Iranians leary of US promisses. We did the #tes wrong. Personally I could not understand it, all we ahd to use was air power. It was a shameful act on our part.

Originally posted by Warpspeed
That is really what it is all about. The permissive western countries are in total moral decay from vice and corruption. The Eastern countries are incredibly strict in a whole lot of areas. We see it as cruel, but is it really ?

Lets see, 13 year olds gettig raped and then when the state finds out it has them executed by throwing rocks at them. Yeah I am going to go with that being cruel. The West isn't in 'moral decay' or even moral decline. The Western world if anything is becoming more moral and more ethical. State Sanctioned executions for example are on the decline in the west, criminals are given less harsh treatment throughout the west, the poor are increasingly cared for throughout the West, science and medecine are pushed to help the sick and infirm throughout the West. If thats not moral and ethical then nothing is.

Originally posted by Deckard_BR26354
I think the question is, do we have the right to impose Western values on Eastern cultures? I'm not sure that we do.

I recall the story (probably apocryphal) of the Britisher and the Indian. This is supossed to be something that happened early on when the Brits held India as a colony. Suposedly the Britisher was at some funeral, and the man's wife was about to perform sutee, ie throw herself (or be thrown, alive) onto a big fire that was cremating her husband. The Britisher was against it. The Indian of in the story said somethign like 'You must understand, this is our culture, our way of doing things, you should not stop us from doing this' and the Britisher responded something like 'My culture and my way of doingthings forces me to stop this'.


Was sutee cruel? Of course, heck if the woman wasn't brainwashed into thinking that her very existence should be over because her husband died then she'd be forcibly thrown onto the fire to kick scream and have her flesh charred into ashes. But preventing people from doing that is somehow chauvenistic and wrong? This 13 year old girl was probably raped by her brother, she got pregnant, gave birth, and now they are going to smash rocks on her until she is dead. Meanwhile he is going to get a painful punishment? Think about the Nigerian woman, who was raped by her brother-in-law. They said she commited adultery, and her punishment was to be death by stoning. I recall there being a similar law amoung the ancient jews. If a woman was raped in the city, then she had commited adultery. Because, the reasoning goes, if she didn't want to have sex, then she'd've screamed out and people would've prevented it, so she must've wanted it. If she was raped in the countryside, then no one could hear her, and then it could be rape. Ludicrous. I am sure that in this particualr case, they are saying, if she didn't fight to the death to defend her honour, then she wanted to have sex,. no matter how bad the beating she got for resistsing. So she is an adulterer, and should be murdered. No, sorry, simply not civilized, simply not acceptable.


[edit on 16-10-2004 by Nygdan]