Arctic Ice Rotten to the Core

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posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Whats going on in the Antartica says quite the opposite!




posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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reply to post by bluemirage5
 


Well, it is winter in the south pole while it is summer in the north pole.

If you are talking about Antarctic sea ice, it is not a good sign. Ice on the continent is sliding into the sea.

m.cbsnews.com...://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57515922/antarctic-ice-streams-may-trigger-major-melt ing/&catid=57515922



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


I actually think a lot pf people fail to realise that. Which is a bit worrying really......

Comparing Antarctic winter ice extent with Arctic summer ice extent always seems silly, even without an understanding that the causes of ice extent in the north and south are different (for what should be obvious reasons to anyone who has looked at an Atlas - one is a continent surrounded by water, the other water surrounded by a continent)



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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This is from a blog, but it is the best explanation I have seen so far on how Global Warming effects the weather.

www.washingtonpost.com... 2-8102-ebee9c66e190_blog.html


The difference in temperature between the Arctic and areas to the south is what drives the jet stream, a fast-moving river of air that encircles the northern hemisphere. As the Arctic warms faster, this temperature difference weakens, as does the west-to-east wind of the jet stream. Just as a river of water tends to meander when it reaches the gentle slopes of coastal plains, a weaker jet stream tends to have steeper north-south waves. Arctic amplification also stretches the northern tips of the waves farther northward, which favors further meandering. Meteorologists know that steeper waves are slower to shift westward.

The weather we experience at mid-latitudes is largely dictated by these waves in the jet stream. The slower the waves move, the longer the weather associated with them will persist. Essentially, “hot,” “dry,” “cold,” and “rainy” are all terms to describe very normal weather conditions. It’s only when those conditions persist in one area for too long that they are dubbed with the names of their extreme alter egos: heat waves, drought, cold spells, and floods. And these kinds of extreme events are precisely what we’ve seen more of in recent years.


So, the weather comes, and it stays much longer, and when weather conditions remain constant, then they become weather extremes. A week or two without rain is fine, but when it becomes a month, it is a drought. If it storms for a few days, that is fine, if it storms for weeks, then you have flooding.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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Here is another link on Antarctic ice

www.cbc.ca...


"Over the last 20 years we have used satellites to monitor ice losses from Antarctica, and we have witnessed consistent and substantial ice losses from around much of its coastline," said Robert Bingham, a glaciologist working in the University of Aberdeen's School of Geosciences and lead author of the study.

"For some of the glaciers, including Ferrigno Ice Stream, the losses are especially pronounced, and, to understand why, we needed to acquire data about conditions beneath the ice surface.

Using a skidoo towing an ice-penetrating radar system, a scan was done over a distance of 2400 kilometres. Examining the results, researchers were able to discover the previously hidden valley."


www.sciencealert.com.au...


The Southern Ocean is warming faster than the average for the global ocean.
The warming extends to greater depth in the Southern Ocean than it does in low latitudesbecause of the unique ocean currents there that carry heat deep in the ocean. The large amount of heat stored in the ocean makes it expand, raising sea levels.


What they are not saying, but is probably happening, is that the warming process is accelerating in the Southern Ocean. Do these warmer Arctic waters make their way down south? The deep water currents take centuries. The surface waters do not, but they do not travel pole to pole. However, the warm surface waters of the Northern hemisphere meet with the warm waters of the Southern hemisphere. How much heat gets carried to the southern pole from the northern pole, and how fast is a considerable question not easily answered.
edit on 13-10-2012 by poet1b because: Increase quote from first link.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Actually thats quite true



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 03:24 AM
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I love it.

Everybody is a global warming expert. Even though most deny it.

I have only seen it mentioned once, and I read most of the thread.

When did the last ice age end again?

We as a species got a little to comfortable in our short existence and think that we can/should control everything, including mother nature.

There is really only one thing we can do, and that is live with it.

We must adapt, like every other species that has ever lived on this planet.

Adapt or go extinct. Not, control and keep it the same forever.

We as a species has our survival instincts all screwed up.
edit on 14-10-2012 by liejunkie01 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 07:44 AM
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reply to post by poet1b
 



Originally published in Science Express on 19 June 2008
Science 1 August 2008:
Vol. 321. no. 5889, pp. 680 - 684
DOI: 10.1126/science.1157707
Prev | Table of Contents | Next

Reports
High-Resolution Greenland Ice Core Data Show Abrupt Climate Change Happens in Few Years
Jørgen Peder Steffensen,1* Katrine K. Andersen,1 Matthias Bigler,1,2 Henrik B. Clausen,1 Dorthe Dahl-Jensen,1 Hubertus Fischer,2,3 Kumiko Goto-Azuma,4 Margareta Hansson,5 Sigfús J. Johnsen,1 Jean Jouzel,6 Valérie Masson-Delmotte,6 Trevor Popp,7 Sune O. Rasmussen,1 Regine Röthlisberger,2,8 Urs Ruth,3 Bernhard Stauffer,2 Marie-Louise Siggaard-Andersen,1 Árn E. Sveinbjörnsdóttir,9 Anders Svensson,1 James W. C. White7

The last two abrupt warmings at the onset of our present warm interglacial period, interrupted by the Younger Dryas cooling event, were investigated at high temporal resolution from the North Greenland Ice Core Project ice core. The deuterium excess, a proxy of Greenland precipitation moisture source, switched mode within 1 to 3 years over these transitions and initiated a more gradual change (over 50 years) of the Greenland air temperature, as recorded by stable water isotopes. The onsets of both abrupt Greenland warmings were slightly preceded by decreasing Greenland dust deposition, reflecting the wetting of Asian deserts. A northern shift of the Intertropical Convergence Zone could be the trigger of these abrupt shifts of Northern Hemisphere atmospheric circulation, resulting in changes of 2 to 4 kelvin in Greenland moisture source temperature from one year to the next.

www.sciencemag.org...


...

Current warmth seems to be occurring nearly everywhere at the same time and is largest at high latitudes in the Northern Hemisphere. Over the last 50 years, the largest annual and seasonal warmings have occurred in Alaska, Siberia and the Antarctic Peninsula. Most ocean areas have warmed. Because these areas are remote and far away from major cities, it is clear to climatologists that the warming is not due to the influence of pollution from urban areas.

www.nasa.gov...


Extreme Nile floods and famines in Medieval Egypt AD 930–1500 and their climatic implications
by: F. Hassan
In: Quaternary International, Vol. 173-174 (October 2007) , p. 101--112.
Citation format (all formats): plainHarvardDIN1505simple HTML
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URL: dx.doi.org...
DOI: 10.1016/j.quaint.2007.06.001

Abstract
Nile gauge records of variations in Nile floods from the 9th century to the 15th century AD reveal pronounced episodes of low Nile and high Nile flood discharge. Historical data reveal that this period was also characterized by the worst known famines on record. Exploratory comparisons of variations in Nile flood discharge with high-resolution data on sea surface temperature of the North Atlantic climate from three case studies suggest that rainfall at the source of the Nile was influenced by the North Atlantic Oscillation. However, there are apparently flip-flop reversals from periods when variations in Nile flood discharge are positively related to North Atlantic warming to periods where the opposite takes place. The key transitions occur at AD 900, 1010, 1070, 1180, 1350 and 1400. The putative flip-flop junctures, which require further confirmation, appear to be quite rapid and some seem to have had dramatic effects on Nile flood discharge, especially if they recurred at short intervals, characteristic of the period from the 9th to the 14th century, coincident with the so-called Medieval Warm Period. The transition from one state to the other was characterized by incidents of low, high or a succession of both low and high extreme floods. The cluster of extreme floods was detrimental causing famines and economic disasters that are unmatched over the last 2000 years.

www.bibsonomy.org...


Say what again? I can't understand you, all the FACTS are in the way...

Not to mention that if there was ANY truth to the AGW hoax, your idols Jones, trembeth et al wouldn't ahve been caught lying and cheating, and the IPCC scientists who sold their soul for money/funding wouldn't have been caught posting lies when they knew they were lies...



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 07:46 AM
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The AGW religious lunatics also don't take into account the other changes the Earth has been going through which do affect the climate and weather...

There is also changes in the Earth's magnetic field which do affect Climate Change.


The earth's magnetic field impacts climate: Danish study
(AFP) – Jan 12, 2009

COPENHAGEN (AFP) — The earths climate has been significantly affected by the planets magnetic field, according to a Danish study published Monday that could challenge the notion that human emissions are responsible for global warming.

........

www.google.com...

BTW, in case you didn't know, and of course he doesn't know...the Earth's magnetic field started weakening in 1840...and it is now weaker and having large fluctuations which haven't occurred in over 400,000 years...



The red points of data above are showing the strength in the weakening fluctuation the Earth's magnetic field has been experiencing.

The Earth's magnetic field is getting so weak that large breaches are opening up in ways scientists didn't think could happen


A Giant Breach in Earth's Magnetic Field
12.16.2008

Dec. 16, 2008: NASAs five THEMIS spacecraft have discovered a breach in Earths magnetic field ten times larger than anything previously thought to exist. Solar wind can flow in through the opening to "load up" the magnetosphere for powerful geomagnetic storms. But the breach itself is not the biggest surprise. Researchers are even more amazed at the strange and unexpected way it forms, overturning long-held ideas of space physics.

"At first I didn't believe it," says THEMIS project scientist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "This finding fundamentally alters our understanding of the solar wind-magnetosphere interaction."
........

science.nasa.gov...

Then there is the fact that any new region of space which the Solar System encounters has an effect on the Solar System dynamics, and on planets like Earth and do cause dramatic Climate Changes.

Scientists knew that the Solar System was going to encounter a new region of space back in 1978, and they though this new region of space was probably going to cause Climate Changes....


Title:
Is the solar system entering a nearby interstellar cloud
Authors:
Vidal-Madjar, A.; Laurent, C.; Bruston, P.; Audouze, J.
Affiliation:
AA(CNRS, Laboratoire de Physique Stellaire et Planetaire, Verrieres-le-Buisson, Essonne, France), AB(CNRS, Laboratoire de Physique Stellaire et Planetaire, Verrieres-le-Buisson, Essonne, France), AC(CNRS, Laboratoire de Physique Stellaire et Planetaire, Verrieres-le-Buisson, Essonne, France), AD(Meudon Observatoire, Hauts-de-Seine; Paris XI, Universite, Orsay, Essonne, France)
Publication:
Astrophysical Journal, Part 1, vol. 223, July 15, 1978, p. 589-600. (ApJ Homepage)
Publication Date:
07/1978
Category:
Astrophysics
Origin:
STI
NASA/STI Keywords:
....................
Abstract
....................
Observational arguments in favor of such a cloud are presented, and implications of the presence of a nearby cloud are discussed, including possible changes in terrestrial climate. It is suggested that the postulated interstellar cloud should encounter the solar system at some unspecified time in the near future and might have a drastic influence on terrestrial climate in the next 10,000 years.

adsabs.harvard.edu...

We have even found out that this new region of space which the Solar System is entering is very strongly magnetized, and it is so unusual that physics would dictate such a cloud could not exist.


December 23, 2009: The solar system is passing through an interstellar cloud that physics says should not exist. In the Dec. 24th issue of Nature, a team of scientists reveal how NASAs Voyager spacecraft have solved the mystery.

science.nasa.gov...

We also know that all planets in the Solar System, including Earth, are receiving more charged particles, plasma, and radiation than at any time at least since we began monitoring space weather.


Like a wounded Starship Enterprise, our solar system's natural shields are faltering, letting in a flood of cosmic rays. The sun's recent listlessness is resulting in record-high radiation levels that pose a hazard to both human and robotic space missions.

Galactic cosmic rays are speeding charged particles that include protons and heavier atomic nuclei. They come from outside the solar system, though their exact sources are still being debated.

www.newscientist.com...


Galactic cosmic rays are speeding charged particles that include protons and heavier atomic nuclei. They come from outside the solar system, though their exact sources are still being debated.
www.newscientist.com...
edit on 14-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)
edit on 14-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 07:50 AM
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reply to post by liejunkie01
 


You are quite right, literally...

The AGW religious fanatics BELIEVE they can control the climate, the Earth, the Solar System, and the entire Universe...

They think/imply they are the most powerful force in the Universe...



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Religious lunatics! You should look up JCs story on the vineyard, he was another well known lunatic in his day.

At least you are using decent sources now, but they still don't refute my opening sources.



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by poet1b

Religious lunatics! You should look up JCs story on the vineyard, he was another well known lunatic in his day.

At least you are using decent sources now, but they still don't refute my opening sources.



I am ALWAYS using better than decent sources, and your "opening sources" only show that the arctic has been warming...nothing new there, it has warmed before, and the ice has receeded more than it is now...

At least one of the peer-reviewed papers I gave states the waters off Florida was 4 degrees celsius HOTTER than it is now, and also states the water was LESS SALINE during the Medieval Warm Period, which means MORE ICE from the Arctic had melted than it is now...

BTW, again, your AGW religion is based on LIES, even your idols were caught in their web of lies... They were also caught in the fact that even the raw temperature data since the 1980s had been deleted so now no one can check if their numbers are correct... Pretty slick huh?...

Your idols, Mann, Jones, Tremberth, et al were caught deleting temperature data, talking about not allowing research that refutes AGW from being published, the IPCC AGW scientists were caught in their lies as well; the GCMs are flawed to a fault, research from all over the globe proves the Roman and Medieval Warm Periods were global and WARMER than at any time during the ongoing Climate Change; not to mention that the areas that have warmed the most have been far away from sources of CO2 and pollution, plus all the available information clearly demonstrating the ongoing Climate Change is NATURAL...

Keep denying it all you want... Maybe you want to start praying to your lying idols to try to revive once more your religion, but it won't make it truth...

edit on 17-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by nixie_nox

The little ice age wasn't an ice age at all, just a three century cooling period in Europe, that also has half a dozen other causes considered, including volcanic activity.
If the sun was "heating up", there would of been climate events all over the world, not just Europe.
Common sense would tell you that if the climate was driven by a moody sun, lt would be so turbulant that life couldn't exist.


First of all, obviously you have no common sense at all... Are you even aware on how, and why the 4 seasons happen?... I'll give you a hint....it has NOTHING to do with CO2...

Second of all, the Little Ice Age was a GLOBAL event... I have given peer-reviewed research papers not only from Europe but from South America, Africa, and China, and alongside other countries and areas the Little Ice Age occurred EVERYWHERE...


But like a good poster, I will keep this short and sweet. Since you haven't provided any evidence more recent then 2007.
BTW, as the other poster pointed out, long complicated responses full of useless information is a form of trolling.





livescience


The article above is from HANSEN none-the-less... Perhaps you haven't heard... HANSEN has been caught MANY times publishing erroneous data simply because it agreed with his AGW RELIGION... Not to mention that, and I quote...


Former NASA Scientists Say Climate Change Is Not Settled Science


Group Of 49 Issues A Letter To Administrator Charles Bolden Protesting Such Assertions

Nearly 50 former employees of NASA have sent a letter to administrator Charles Bolden asking that the agency stop saying that human-caused global warming is scientific fact. The 49 scientists say that such claims are "unproven and unsupported remarks."

The letter come soon after the head of the agency's Goddard Institute for Space Studies Jim Hansen made a speech calling global warming caused by man a "great moral issue" like "slavery," according to a report appearing in "The Blaze" online.

In the letter, the scientists say that "We believe the claims by NASA and GISS, that man-made carbon dioxide is having a catastrophic impact on global climate change are not substantiated, especially when considering thousands of years of empirical data.
...

www.aero-news.net...

And don't even dare to claim "it is only 49 scientists".... there are thousands of scientists who disagree with the AGW religion...

The IPCC, and the AGW religious lunatics have so few real scientists that in the report where "supposedly" 2,500 scientists were agreeing with AGW, in fact most of them were policy makers chosen by their respective governments to further their agenda of getting money through this hoax... Those policy makers were only experts in for example "motorcycle safety", people in corporate, financial, legal aid/including lawyers, marketing, sales, IT, the mailroom, research, HR, etc, only about 50-60 were real scientists with knowledge in Climate science and many of them are the same scientists that the AGW religious lunatics deride, and try to dismiss...




Originally posted by nixie_nox

the new york times


An article from the New York times about Climate Change as proof, or fact?...
And of course you are so delluded that you didn't see the part that says "OPINION"...





Originally posted by nixie_nox
skepticalscience.com


Skepticalscience?... a blog full of lies?...
You might as well link to RealClimate.org where Mann, Schmidt, and others sold their soul to Al Gore...


edit on 17-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Oh, and let's not forget what scientists have been able to demonstrate recently...


Climate in northern Europe reconstructed for the past 2,000 years: Cooling trend calculated precisely for the first time

Calculations prepared by Mainz scientists will also influence the way current climate change is perceived / Publication of results in Nature Climate Change

09.07.2012

An international team including scientists from Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz (JGU) has published a reconstruction of the climate in northern Europe over the last 2,000 years based on the information provided by tree-rings. Professor Dr. Jan Esper's group at the Institute of Geography at JGU used tree-ring density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees originating from Finnish Lapland to produce a reconstruction reaching back to 138 BC. In so doing, the researchers have been able for the first time to precisely demonstrate that the long-term trend over the past two millennia has been towards climatic cooling. "We found that previous estimates of historical temperatures during the Roman era and the Middle Ages were too low," says Esper. "Such findings are also significant with regard to climate policy, as they will influence the way today's climate changes are seen in context of historical warm periods." The new study has been published in the journal Nature Climate Change.

Researchers from Germany, Finland, Scotland, and Switzerland examined tree-ring density profiles in trees from Finnish Lapland. In this cold environment, trees often collapse into one of the numerous lakes, where they remain well preserved for thousands of years.

The international research team used these density measurements from sub-fossil pine trees in northern Scandinavia to create a sequence reaching back to 138 BC. The density measurements correlate closely with the summer temperatures in this area on the edge of the Nordic taiga. The researchers were thus able to create a temperature reconstruction of unprecedented quality. The reconstruction provides a high-resolution representation of temperature patterns in the Roman and Medieval Warm periods, but also shows the cold phases that occurred during the Migration Period and the later Little Ice Age.

In addition to the cold and warm phases, the new climate curve also exhibits a phenomenon that was not expected in this form. For the first time, researchers have now been able to use the data derived from tree-rings to precisely calculate a much longer-term cooling trend that has been playing out over the past 2,000 years. Their findings demonstrate that this trend involves a cooling of -0.3°C per millennium due to gradual changes to the position of the sun and an increase in the distance between the Earth and the sun.

"This figure we calculated may not seem particularly significant," says Esper. "However, it is also not negligible when compared to global warming, which up to now has been less than 1°C. Our results suggest that the large-scale climate reconstruction shown by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) likely underestimate this long-term cooling trend over the past few millennia."

www.uni-mainz.de...

You can see the graph with the temp in this link.


What this means is that the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods were even WARMER than previous studies suggested.

BTW, in case you don't notice the dotted red line is inclined showing the cooling trend being more and more inclined downwards as it gets to our present time.

The graph also shows the REAL temperature in our present time, and not the make believe bs that Mann, et al created, or the false temperature from temperature stations which do not really take into consideration the heat island effect, making it look like it has been warmer during the ongoing Climate Change than it was during the Medieval and Roman Warm Period when it fact it hasn't been warmer than those past warm periods.

And to those who will say "this is only for nothern Europe"... What about the several other research papers from ALL OVER THE GLOBE that also state the Medieval and Roman Warm Periods were WARMER than the present meanwhile atmospheric CO2 was around 280ppm-290ppm?...

Yet another nail in the coffin of the AGW religion...


How many nails are the AGW religion lunatics going to need to leave behind their defunt religion?...


edit on 17-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: add comments.



posted on Oct, 18 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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Its a little alarming that we could have a sudden flash flood from antarctic and water rising, perhaps cooling climate, from North Pole. CME's and sun flares don't make it any easier.

I think its all connected to the magnetic reversal, and if its a sudden one as has happened in the past, where it starts out slow and finished up really fast, we're in for some hard times here.

These things are all a part of earth changes. And could have easily been dealt with for all citizens for decades if it wasn't for the extraordinary greed, and evil intentions of the few.

www.sciencecodex.com...

I believe it's possible that what is causing the magnetic reversal is also causing the poles to thaw, and for this to happen in the solar system.



posted on Oct, 18 2012 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Oh, and let's not forget what scientists have been able to demonstrate recently...


Here's what one of the scientists involved with the study says of it.

However, the study actually does none of the above. "Our study doesn't go against anthropogenic global warming in any way," said Robert Wilson, a paleoclimatologist at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and a co-author of the study, which appeared July 8 in the journal Nature Climate Change.


That Scandinavia may have been slightly warmer in the 11th century than today also doesn't change the fact that the world, as a whole, is warmer now. "This data is spatially specific. You would expect to see this trend in northern Scandinavia, but not in the Alps," Wilson said. "Almost all models show that the current global warming is probably warmer overall than that warming."


But Wilson, Schmidt and the vast majority of climate scientists agree: human-caused warming of the entire globe now overwhelms those subtle, regional heat redistributions. World temperatures are now pushing in only one direction: up.

www.lifeslittlemysteries.com...



posted on Oct, 19 2012 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Your sources are mainly second hand evaluations citing articles by real scientists who are peered reviewed. This has been pointed out many times. Or else your sources do not back up your claim.

From sources on the 1st page, soil frozen for millions of years is now thawed

Global Warming is happening so fast, that science is unable to keep up.

Those who want to hide under their beds can do so if they choose.

This thread is about discussing what most clearly see.



posted on Oct, 19 2012 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


Your sources are mainly second hand evaluations citing articles by real scientists who are peered reviewed. This has been pointed out many times. Or else your sources do not back up your claim.

From sources on the 1st page, soil frozen for millions of years is now thawed

Global Warming is happening so fast, that science is unable to keep up.

Those who want to hide under their beds can do so if they choose.

This thread is about discussing what most clearly see.



posted on Oct, 19 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 


That's an opinion, not based on what the evidence actually says, and again Schmidt is one of the directors to the website Realclimate.org which recieves web hosting and support from Environmnetal Media Services, a leftwing organization funded by "Arlie Schardt, former journalist, former communications director for Al Gore's 2000 Presidential campaign, and former head of the Environmental Defense Fund during the 1970s."...

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Oct, 19 2012 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by poet1b


Your sources are mainly second hand evaluations citing articles by real scientists who are peered reviewed. This has been pointed out many times. Or else your sources do not back up your claim.

From sources on the 1st page, soil frozen for millions of years is now thawed

Global Warming is happening so fast, that science is unable to keep up.

Those who want to hide under their beds can do so if they choose.

This thread is about discussing what most clearly see.


That's a lie and you know it... The last link I gave comes directly from Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz's website (JGU)... The mayority of the other links i have given come directly from scientific journals, but of course you have to claim the contrary since they refute your religious beliefs...

You are the one hidding under the bed from the truth. I have posted direct evidence from peer-reviewed research papers which clearly state the climate was WARMER during the Medieval, and Roman warm periods.

For example, during the Medieval Warm Period Egypt suffered the worst floods, and drought unmatched for the last 2,000 years, and Egypt wasn't the only country to go through such dramatic Climate Changes in the past... Entire civilizations were destroyed, and people had to move from large cities because of past dramatic Climate Changes...

BTW, nice to see that once again people like you CLAIM to speak for "what most people can see"...


What are you going to do next, think for "most people as well" because you don't want to accept the fact that a lot of people don't agree with you?...


edit on 19-10-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)





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