Do not blame God, blame the Christian hypocrites!

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by followtheevidence

 

"The gift of poverty is one of the spiritual gifts dispensed by God..."

Wait- what??? "the gift of poverty?!" Are you INSANE???? I'm not a lover of money- the stuff's worthless- but really....???? Have you BEEN in poverty? I have! You spend your waking and even non waking hours hoping the power wont be turned off, you wont be robbed of what little you have, you GET robbed (a lot), Food? WHAT food??, And the christians... hoo, *boy*... They act like you are well below the scum of the earth. No respect, no help, no hope, no nothing- a miserable, contemptible existence... and this is a "gift"? Only to those of you who wouldnt know real poverty if it came up and p***ed in your shoe. You are forced to eat poisoned, artificial food. You are forced to use cheap stuff that is toxic, breaks easily. Clothes... beds- all have to be second hand, and with the threats of disease and bedbugs and such, it's a crap shoot.

Gift, huh. *scoff*. Is there a return desk....?

Thanks for your measured reply, I guess.

Yeah I grew up in a poverty ridden deeply dysfunctional home. It could always have been worse but we all have a story nevertheless.

And it's specifically the gift of VOLUNTARY poverty.

Sigh. Never mind. It's clear you're on some sort of polemical rampage and aren't really interested in any legitimate discussion.

C'est la vie.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

Let's forget denominationalism for a minute..the term "elect" is both in the old and new testaments, so I really don't think it does good scholastic justice to imply it's a term from the Reformation. It's use and denotation is independent of the 17th century.

Good point, though I can't really recall anyone but Reformed using it (or at least not often enough to remember,) so I generally associate it with them. Granted, if the OP is Reformed, he has an odd interpretation of it.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by ahnggk

 

"Even my elect will be deceived!!!!!!!!"

Does anyone even know who are the elect??? They are probably just a tiny percentage of your church!!

I'll bet ya they arent even IN a church. I'll double bet ya they arent even christian (by name, at least).

"The Elect" is a term used by Reformed theologians to refer to those who were predestined for salvation, so if that is the way that ahnggk is using it, no, you're wrong. If he's using it in another sense, perhaps, but if it's Reformed, no, the Elect would not be unchurched, nor would they be non-Christian, by definition of the term.

I dont think the deity known as "god" is going to give a rat's rear end what set of mortals defines what.... it's like my cats deciding what names they actually have. One's Buddy, and one's Yoda (or "you @(*#(*!!" when he's using the counters and windowsill as stunt ramps) Or when we had to check Buddy's temp. The thermometer doesnt go in their mouths... no amount of swearing by him kept us from dealing him that humiliation. We love the cats, and care for them- but when it's down to brass tacks, their opinions arent worth a thing. You think that "god" gives a flip about what some faction says? They arent following what has been assigned as a human impulse- they have stuck rules and regulations and assorted other BS on a SIMPLE. HUMAN. IMPULSE. To be good to others. it's what "god" stuffed in us mortals- and of course, us mortals have gone and F'd it up.

Same thing with mortals' opinions of god. I sat here and watched a debate of semantics on 'doing good works'. On who should be doing what according to their religious beliefs- and NOT what is good and right, screw the reward. Just FYI: I'm not god. I am probably wrong. But to listen to the various teachings of various religions and what *they* say- and not one word of "screw the dogma. I'm gonna be good and generous to people"- It's just utterly mind blowing. Like I said- I'm at the low end. Hell- I am past the poverty range! I come to a sliding halt at the bottom end of the scale! I have seen the way these religions work like most people on the other side do not- and it's VERY frightening. Did you know that there are christians who are convinced the bible tells them to screw the unbeliever and the poor unbeliever out of their money? That cheating people is good? They take various scriptures and defend themselves. What's worse: "Jesus said...". Yup. Jesus gets around....You dont agree? neither do I- but I have heard it with my own ears. They also get away with it all the time- which makes things worse.

I feel there is going to be a NASTY surprise for all these various factions.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

People do live there, you completely missed my point.

I have friends in India, you know what's living in a slum in India like??? Even worse for those with kids/babies?? It's extremely unsanitary!! The place wreaks of terrible smells!! It's a noisy place, houses cramped, crime rampant!! The babies are undernourished, they improvise on nutrition, and other child care. The place is hot, damp, no AC, no comforts whatsoever, no internet, very few possessions.. You won't live long in such places, mortality is very high, skin diseases are quite common!

I have lived in USA once, I had a nice paying job there, then I left my job for New Zealand, I lived there for longer...

...But in New Zealand, I was living on just $50 a day... Slightly lower than the minimum daily wage in USA...

In New Zealand, the cost of living is slightly higher but hey, even with USA min wage, I was living in a very clean apartment in a nice neighborhood!! I have my own nice car!! I can eat three great meals a day!! Every weekend, I can drive 100 kms to the beach and do ocean kayaking or go to the woods, tramp a couple kms!! I got so many things in addition, entertainment system, nice set of tools for the car.

Can you even compare that with slum living in India??? My previous response to you was a sarcasm. You talk like you have no idea what you're saying, dead of emotions. Living in slums is not a nice thing. I have lived with the poor before. I won't complain if I have to live among them again for the sake of the Gospel.

But the world is unfair.. Injustices abound everywhere. That's why I hate feeling even nice about the 'good things' in this world anymore. I've gone to many different places, a lot of Christians are blind!

@wylekat

"If you dont have enough money, nice things and stuff, then you are a sinner, and God doesnt like you- and neither do we."

That is probably a blatantly blunt way to say it, but is true. In a more realistic sense, this is how many Christians say it:

"God's favor is NOT in the poor"

Really?? Didn't Jesus and John say these things for the poor??

- Sell your possessions and give to the poor
- Give your extra clothes, and food to those who had none
- Whatever you do for the least, you did for me
- (Disciples) "That money could have been used to help the poor!!"
- (Paul) If you have food and clothes be happy with that!
- The poor widow gave more!!

Today Popular Christianity peddles the Gospel with the things of the flesh...

It has now become the Gospel of Wolves, peddled by wolves themselves which Christ repeatedly warned us about!!!

Wolf-partakers of the flesh, meat eaters!! The sheep is starving because of you!! Jesus will tear you to pieces when he comes back!!

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

Let's forget denominationalism for a minute..the term "elect" is both in the old and new testaments, so I really don't think it does good scholastic justice to imply it's a term from the Reformation. It's use and denotation is independent of the 17th century.

Good point, though I can't really recall anyone but Reformed using it (or at least not often enough to remember,) so I generally associate it with them. Granted, if the OP is Reformed, he has an odd interpretation of it.

Have you ever been around full-gospel Pentecostals, or non-denominational charismatics?

reply to post by ahnggk


You missed my point. My point was 5$ per hour in Kentucky is poverty. But 2$ per day in an Indian slum feeds a family of five. My point was you can't use one wage across the board to compare different places where the cost of living is drastically different. And I never said or implied living in a slum was a nice thing, it was an illustration.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ahnggk

 

You missed my point. My point was 5$ per hour in Kentucky is poverty. But 2$ per day in an Indian slum feeds a family of five. My point was you can't use one wage across the board to compare different places where the cost of living is drastically different. And I never said or implied living in a slum was a nice thing, it was an illustration.

edit on 25-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

As single, 5$/hr ain't poor! I was enjoying my life in 6.25$/hr in New Zealand! All it will take to make it on 5$/hr living is a cheaper room to rent outside the large city, of course, taking a new job nearby.

I never liked living in the city anyway, hate the congestion!! Never liked parties, absolutely no vices, seldom did shopping, no extravagant dinners, no g/f, no flings. Long drives, ocean kayaking, and tramping are my only vices during the weekends. I was absolutely enjoying these simple things!!

Cost of living in New Zealand is slightly higher than in USA if you recall me saying.

Of course, it would be a gamebreaker if I had a family to raise. But I have none and it's an absolutely stupid thing to pursue such thing at the moment.

2$ per day predicament in a 3rd world country is still terrible thing, particularly living in the slums, single or not!! That is just IMO as I've seen it with my own eyes, even lived among the poor! I won't hesitate if God tells me to do it again.

I won't contest however if I have to live in near isolation near the sea on 0$ surviving off the land. Such life I would actually enjoy!

But things have changed now. Even my 'austere' life in New Zealand I once had, I now despise. I could only recall, if I avoided all those long weekend getaways, I could have given a lot more to the poor!

Originally posted by wylekat

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by wylekat
reply to post by ahnggk

 

"Even my elect will be deceived!!!!!!!!"

Does anyone even know who are the elect??? They are probably just a tiny percentage of your church!!

I'll bet ya they arent even IN a church. I'll double bet ya they arent even christian (by name, at least).

"The Elect" is a term used by Reformed theologians to refer to those who were predestined for salvation, so if that is the way that ahnggk is using it, no, you're wrong. If he's using it in another sense, perhaps, but if it's Reformed, no, the Elect would not be unchurched, nor would they be non-Christian, by definition of the term.

I dont think the deity known as "god" is going to give a rat's rear end what set of mortals defines what.... it's like my cats deciding what names they actually have.

Actually, the Reformed theology is fairly well thought out. It may well be wrong (and obviously, I think it is, as I am not Reformed,) but it is not without its appeal. But to say that to contemplate and debate these matters is foolish is ignorant, at best. Like philosophy, theology is about thinking, understanding and considering, in the search for truth. And, as many philosophers have failed to find the truth, so do many theologians, but that doesn't make the quest any less worthy.

But to listen to the various teachings of various religions and what *they* say- and not one word of "screw the dogma. I'm gonna be good and generous to people"- It's just utterly mind blowing.

I believe that is comparable to what I said in my first post in this thread --- I am charitable because I see the benefit to others, not because I think that there is some cosmic scorecard that I'm tallying points on.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Have you ever been around full-gospel Pentecostals, or non-denominational charismatics?

Pentecostals, yes; charismatics, not for a very long time. As I am, brainwise, mired in a black/white world of logic, while I admire people whose faith is more emotionally centered and more outwardly spiritual, I've just never been able to connect to it on a personal level.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ahnggk

 

What do you mean "money is controlling me"? I've never had money my whole life.

Obviously because we were born in the U.S. we were all born with silver spoons in our mouths :shk:, regardless of the fact i grew up wearing hand-me-downs from my older cousin, and what i didn't get from him came from Goodwill because my parents didn't believe in buying us clothes at J.C. Penny's which was the biggest fashion store where i grew up in the 1980's and early 1990's and we were on foodstamps. When i wasn't living in a trailer park typical trailer trash style i was homeless. For christmas i got underwear and socks and shaving cream, and if i was really lucky i got some old spice cologne, every year without fail. But obviously all christians are wealthy in the world!

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ahnggk

 

What do you mean "money is controlling me"? I've never had money my whole life.

Obviously because we were born in the U.S. we were all born with silver spoons in our mouths :shk:, regardless of the fact i grew up wearing hand-me-downs from my older cousin, and what i didn't get from him came from Goodwill because my parents didn't believe in buying us clothes at J.C. Penny's which was the biggest fashion store where i grew up in the 1980's and early 1990's and we were on foodstamps. When i wasn't living in a trailer park typical trailer trash style i was homeless. For christmas i got underwear and socks and shaving cream, and if i was really lucky i got some old spice cologne, every year without fail. But obviously all christians are wealthy in the world!

I live in the US too. Poor? I can handle poor. Kinda tired of it. I can trade and get what I want a various bunch of ways (legally).

HOWEVER:

What I couldnt trade for, what I couldnt buy (companionship, friends in the church, a S.O.) was ridiculed by those who did have. Their material possessions and acquirements were far more important than helping poor lil ole me. Example: My boss (christian) told me "you cant afford a wife. Why bother looking?" The same man who was going on and on and on about "god providing". My reasoning: if god can provide a wife, HE CAN PROVIDE A JOB SO I CAN SUPPORT HER. Oh no! It doesnt work that way! What has followed was a confusing, ridiculous, snarled, *completely* convoluted lecture on god's will, my will, plans, blessings, sin, you name it. The christian women wanted money first, and a warm (well, you know), second. Anything about an actual person is just ignored. I have had "spirit filled" preachers blow it concerning my lack of companionship. absolutely wrong 'prophesy', wrong statements, and the whole "you need more money- but you're SOL if you think god will provide it!" attitude.

I have since proved them *all* wrong, found someone, and we're actually improving our living conditions! She isnt a christian- but completely fills in all those requirements those (censored) were squawking at me about. Oh, and I didnt need "money", either. She's a hell of a lot more useful than a christian woman, too.... but I digress.

What I have learned is (yes, there's exceptions.) almost *all* christians are rich, on the backs of the people they robbed or worked for cents on the dollar. They cannot be trusted, especially when one's back is turned.

It means that if you're a good christian, and you're poor, you're being drowned out like a flea screaming at the top of its lungs at a death metal concert.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Have you ever been around full-gospel Pentecostals, or non-denominational charismatics?

Pentecostals, yes; charismatics, not for a very long time. As I am, brainwise, mired in a black/white world of logic, while I admire people whose faith is more emotionally centered and more outwardly spiritual, I've just never been able to connect to it on a personal level.

Lol, well, as per our last interaction I was kinda referring to their usage of the term "elect" frequently.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Have you ever been around full-gospel Pentecostals, or non-denominational charismatics?

Pentecostals, yes; charismatics, not for a very long time. As I am, brainwise, mired in a black/white world of logic, while I admire people whose faith is more emotionally centered and more outwardly spiritual, I've just never been able to connect to it on a personal level.

Lol, well, as per our last interaction I was kinda referring to their usage of the term "elect" frequently.

The Pentecostals may well have, but if they did, it made no impression on me (no big surprise, I suppose, lol.)

reply to post by wylekat

What I have learned is (yes, there's exceptions.) almost *all* christians are rich, on the backs of the people they robbed or worked for cents on the dollar. They cannot be trusted, especially when one's back is turned.

It means that if you're a good christian, and you're poor, you're being drowned out like a flea screaming at the top of its lungs at a death metal concert

I wouldn't say i'm being drowned out like a flea at a death metal concert. I'm not rich but i'm at the peace i always wanted. After i got saved about 2 years ago the blessings started pouring in. Spent my whole life scraping the bottom of the barrel, one foot in hell, the other foot still on earth, but it wasn't until i surrendered my will to Christ that the blessings started to come. I didn't get married till i was 30, like you i had a rough time of it. No money guaranteed no women so much as looked at me, and it turned out to be a christian woman i married who didn't care about all that and i think Christ worked on me through her and her family who are good people. It was a slow process, i was really bad off and on the verge of being possessed by demons and was being haunted by them, having invisible foosteps running across my kitchen and living room floor, one morning at 4 AM my bedroom light turned on by itself and a gruff voice said "Get up!", having cups thrown at me that were sitting across the room on the bar. We're not all the same little cookie cutter shapes, one just like the other.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ahnggk

 

In those countries if the person doesn't take the job there will be 30 people in line after them that will. So again the "price of labor" is always determined by the worker. If an employer offer X for a job and no laborers agree to the terms the employer must raise the wage. Wages will always stay as low as the minimum people are willing to accept them.

The problem is, you're thinking like a secular atheist, instead of a Christian. I'm not arguing capitalism vs communism. I assumed you were a Christian because of the Giant Cross. I don't read every word of every comment, but I haven't actually heard you say so. If you're not a Christian, I'm barking up the wrong tree.

I'm suggesting, for the sake of argument, an alternative to a profit-based money system controlled by central bankers intent on squeezing the last dime out of the working classes, including you.

You are describing how capitalism works. We know how capitalism works. Unemployment drives down wages. What you haven't mentioned is what's "Christian" about it?

We're talking about helping the poor as if there's no solution or explanation for poverty, other than blaming the poor.

Christians are a little screwed up that way. Just can't seem to think outside of the box. What's that saying? So-and-so's head is so high in the clouds he's of no earthly good? The world's ripe for judgment and Jesus is coming, anyway, so why bother trying to imagine what a just, compassionate, loving advanced economy might look like, and how it would work, when it's easier to simply conform to the world, evil as it is.

Is that your advice?

reply to post by MeTarzan


I wasn't considering my faith in this, Christ actually said to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. Religion has nothing to do with it for one, the cost of labor is determined by labor. And you really don't know anything about Capitalism, except in theory maybe. The US is not Capitalist and has not been for a very long time. It's more like Corporatism at best, Fascism at worst. Certainly not Capitalist.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MeTarzan

 

I wasn't considering my faith in this, Christ actually said to render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. Religion has nothing to do with it for one, the cost of labor is determined by labor. And you really don't know anything about Capitalism, except in theory maybe. The US is not Capitalist and has not been for a very long time. It's more like Corporatism at best, Fascism at worst. Certainly not Capitalist.

You weren't considering your faith in this? THAT explains a lot! I never said the US is capitalist. I simply used the word. Of course we're not capitalist, and none of us are old enough to remember what a "free market" looks like. So don't tell me what I know or don't know, I didn't realized I was talking to a spiritually challenged hypocrite impersonating a Christian. When I want an economics lesson from a soulless Chatty Cathy doll, I'll give you a call.

reply to post by MeTarzan


You know what they say in Philosophy when one side resorts to personal insults don't ya?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MeTarzan

 

You know what they say in Philosophy when one side resorts to personal insults don't ya?

Sticks and stones man, sticks and stones.

reply to post by MeTarzan

I didn't realized I was talking to a spiritually challenged hypocrite impersonating a Christian.

Bad Tarzan.... BAD!!!