Do not blame God, blame the Christian hypocrites!

what god if there was a god then why doesn't he help the world if hes so caring?

reply to post by ahnggk


Peace to you. your message makes sense but you deliver it in a non Christian way. Claiming to do what is better than others is pride, which is the greatest fault. You should be the first to judge yourself, not others. Look not at the outside, but what's on the inside, because only God knows the state of hearts. Look at the situation realistically because this thread may turn many away from God. Pray for those Christians who are not doing what they should but do not exact the world from them. Do not blame them for world hunger, nor all wars. Because with the way the world is everyone has been conditioned to believe in materialism, do you not think that God sees those who have been condition into false beliefs, and pities and forgives them. Worry about yourself and growing in virtue rather than saying "anathema", because many will be forgiven, through your prayers and pity.

peace to you again, and please receive it. Love thy neighbor and thy enemies. God is infinite mercy/

reply to post by ahnggk

It's not enough that you help the poor only once!! It must be a life long commitment of austerity so you can help the needy as much as possible!!

Then why are you wasting your time on the internet instead of helping the needy? There's soup kitchens you could be running, homeless shelters, volunteer work, etc., yet here you are accusing others of hypocrisy. Take the plank out of your eye before attending to the speck of sawdust in your brothers' eye.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Then why are you wasting your time on the internet instead of helping the needy? There's soup kitchens you could be running, homeless shelters, volunteer work, etc., yet here you are accusing others of hypocrisy.

If he isn't already doing something of that sort, then you know what that makes him.

But, just what are you doing with a computer and an internet connection, when you should be doing as Jesus taught

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. "

reply to post by ahnggk

It's not enough that you help the poor only once!! It must be a life long commitment of austerity so you can help the needy as much as possible!!

I agree with you on this.

"Love thy neighbour" is an important biblical teaching.

But its all just empty words, until they practice the "love" they talk about. If they don't "love" a poor stranger, at least enough to spare some money so he can buy himself a meal, then I don't think they can call themselves Christians... i.e - followers of Jesus.

In fact, charity towards the poor is a biblical command.

Jesus : "Give to the one who asks you" (Matthew 5:42)

John the baptist : "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.” (Luke 3:11)

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Then why are you wasting your time on the internet instead of helping the needy? There's soup kitchens you could be running, homeless shelters, volunteer work, etc., yet here you are accusing others of hypocrisy.

If he isn't already doing something of that sort, then you know what that makes him.

But, just what are you doing with a computer and an internet connection, when you should be doing as Jesus taught

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. "

Depends on what you're using your computer for. Some use it for ministry, some use it to look at porn and pull their crank, others use it to make mischief and sow dissention. Nothing wrong with having prosperity if you use it to glorify God, he blesses us so we can bless others so they can see his love and light in us and so bring others to him.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000



“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
-Luke 12:32-34


In addition to encouraging helping the poor, Jesus was teaching one to be detached from this world and its material pleasures. Jesus taught people to get rid of the earthly purses and seek the heavenly purses...the treasures in heaven.

In the verses before that, he taught people not to worry about worldly things, but rather to seek the kingdom

Nothing wrong with having prosperity if you use it to glorify God, he blesses us so we can bless others so they can see his love and light in us and so bring others to him.

But what exactly does "Gods love and light" translate into? A preaching? Or food for the hungry?

Someone could be starving and cold in the streets and if a Christian preaches to me about Gods love but refuses to spare me some change ... thats not very useful to him, is it?

James stresses on the importance of charity (which was the essence of the OP)

Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
-James 2:15

My point is that charity and giving to the poor is a very important teaching of the bible.

Originally posted by TDawgRex

What's your point?

Mans inhumanity to man?

Yea...we get that already.

Good point to bring up!

Rescuing those in distress are required in all of us.

But Christians and other religions have a bit of a head start for often, helping the poor quite an important aspect of following God, in Christianity's case, even critical for salvation. It is taught in religious books, in churches, etc..

Who do you think is more accountable then? The unbelievers, or the religious?

@Godlover

With true Faith in Christ, you can be broke, homeless, crippled, and/or imprisoned and tortured, yet still smile and be at peace. Tell me that's not following God....

To many Christians today, they believe if you're in a constant state of material/physical poverty, God's favor is not in you! That's the lie of the prosperity Gospel, the Gospel of the Wolves!

Does that mean God's favor is also not in his Son, Jesus?? Jesus said, the Son of Man, had no place to rest... Jesus is practically homeless!

God's favor is not in Lazarus?? But he's there, being comforted in heaven!!

God's favor is not in the poor widow?? Jesus praised the poor widow's miniscule offering above and over the offerings of the rich!!

God's favor is not in John the Baptist?? John the Baptist water-baptised Jesus!!

God's favor is not in unbelievers who are in poverty?? Whatever you done to the least, you done unto me! Sell your possessions, give to the poor... God wishes to bless the poor through us!! But what do we do with the money that is not ours??

God's favor in the rich/abundant materially?? Often not! Jesus drove the rich man away sad and broken. Jesus told, impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom. Often, the rich sets themselves apart from the poor!! They could not sit with them, they would not carry them, they would not invite them to dinner..

@followtheevidence

It's quite simple really. If every servant of Christ on earth were to live a life of poverty - many many demographics and contexts would remain untouched by a witness. Many richer neighborhoods, schools, universities, many professions, many avenues would not be traveled by Christians as we would be sequestered in an impoverished lifestyle. We can't all be nomadic like Christ was and we can't all be hermetic like John was - how are we to be the light of the WORLD with such a narrow window to minister? We're talking a very limited target audience here, if we're all to be poor.

You're not thinking big enough We are currently 2.2 billion Christians strong!! In the world's richest countries who owns MOST of the world's wealth, MORE THAN 70% of their total population are Christians!!

Do you how incredibly powerful/destructive that is??

Even if NONE quit their jobs, but every Christian in those richest countries would live an absolutely austere lifestyle, keeping only few possessions only to serve basic needs - food, clothing, and the rest solely for the gospel and for helping the poor. Renting the cheapest apartments, buying the most fuel-efficient, cheap/used cars, limiting their intake of food, etc....

The world economy will collapse overnight! The power will be restored to the poor!! Everyone will see change!!

Then the rich, will know who God is!!! Everyone will know God!!

Everyone will see how despicable greed, money, wealth, our wanton destruction of nature has become!!!

God will then spare us his Wrath!! He will restore the Earth right then and there!! He will come to us...

@backcase

Peace to you. your message makes sense but you deliver it in a non Christian way. Claiming to do what is better than others is pride, which is the greatest fault. You should be the first to judge yourself, not others. Look not at the outside, but what's on the inside, because only God knows the state of hearts. Look at the situation realistically because this thread may turn many away from God. Pray for those Christians who are not doing what they should but do not exact the world from them. Do not blame them for world hunger, nor all wars. Because with the way the world is everyone has been conditioned to believe in materialism, do you not think that God sees those who have been condition into false beliefs, and pities and forgives them. Worry about yourself and growing in virtue rather than saying "anathema", because many will be forgiven, through your prayers and pity. peace to you again, and please receive it. Love thy neighbor and thy enemies. God is infinite mercy/

I love.... but no longer in the flesh.... I strive to love everyone in the Spirit..

...For we wage war against the flesh...

We will come not pleasing to the flesh but only to the Spirit.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Then why are you wasting your time on the internet instead of helping the needy? There's soup kitchens you could be running, homeless shelters, volunteer work, etc., yet here you are accusing others of hypocrisy. Take the plank out of your eye before attending to the speck of sawdust in your brothers' eye.

Can you even use most of your internet and computer time to speak on behalf of the poor?

How humanity has thwarted God's Will of feeding and clothing His people?? How they have kept MOST of God's money for themselves??

ALL our income/profits/earnings is God's! It isn't your hard work, honesty, not even your Denomination that got you to where you are now, Christian or not!! It's only through God's Authority!! It is only through God's authority that Pilate was.... ....Pilate and he was there speaking to Jesus!!

How you use money becomes a curse or a blessing. Judas kept some of the money and died. John took none and he went to Heaven. Jesus took none and He was taken up! The rich man cannot leave his possessions, thus forfeiting his entry into the Kingdom, another rich man is being tormented in hell.

I'm not saying all these out of empty air!!! Been a Christian for 20 years, in many different countries, lived among different Christian families, and I've seen enough!!!

God hit me in the head few months ago, he rescued me from the apostasy of many churches and many Christians today!! Your hearts, minds, and souls deceive you!! You love money deep inside for you can't let go but you never know!! You choose to believe God's word this way that it's okay to keep money, than that way, the right way that it's a bad thing to keep, it's a detestable thing!!

We are all commanded to feed God's sheep and that is what I'm doing at this moment!

For God's sheep has been starving for a long time!! They cannot eat meat!! All they hear is the Gospel of Meat, the Gospel of Flesh, the Gospel of Wolves, the False Gospel!!!

They need to be fed the 'Bread of Life'!! The food that does not spoil, The food they are longing for. The food that satisfies the spirit and brings death to the flesh!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

My point is that charity and giving to the poor is a very important teaching of the bible.

I'm not saying you're wrong or arguing against this. I don't have earthly purses, i got just enough to pay the bills i have, in fact last week i went 300 bucks in the hole and i give money away enough it causes problems with my wife, i started a foodbank at my church and i'm the only one who stocks it. The OP is of the notion all christians are filthy rich and it's just not true. God didn't bless us the way the did the jews who have a knack for making gold like no other. I've spent my entire life being screwed by other people in not so pleasureable ways, i just let it roll off my back like water on a duck. So whenever i see someone telling brothers and sisters that we can feed the world i just have to facepalm, because most of us can't even afford to feed our own families and are just as in need as everyone else.

reply to post by ahnggk


Wow what a tragedy, what a sad indictment on Christianity your message is.
I will go to hell because I dont help the poor, I eat to many whoppers so I am destined for the flame griller. The irony!

Christ had only one message for His church, to give all their money to the poor? No that wasnt it was it, I dont remember reading that anywhere. To buy from the church indulgences so they could build bigger churches and sin more (I am looking at the catholics)...uhm no, not that either.
So what was it, sing songs in trance like states...nah hah...was it healing ministry's, that must be it yeah, but nah, healing ministrys are not biblical.
Oh thats right He Jesus commissioned us to tell people about getting good jobs and making money, that doesnt sound right either does it.

Maybe you are right, our job is to just help the poor, that way we can earn our salvation, Christs death wasnt necessary for salvation and we can achieve it on our own by paying money.

The saddest part of your message is you think that you are righteous but you are so wrongteous its unbelievable.
You are worse than the Pharisees.

Oops I forgot the main point. Jesus wants us to feed His sheep the GOSPEL.
Food is great for the short term we live and walk on the earth, the real food is the Gospel that He demanded we teach the whole world. The gospel wont save people from hunger, it will save them from hell.
That is the imperative, learn to exegete your bible and dont place your religious burdens on people. Hypocrite.

Christ teaches His gospel, you teach charity and condemnation.
There is a role for charity, but the real need is the gospel. Go read your whole bible. Thats dreadful teaching.

Originally posted by ahnggk
reply to post by Sinny

 

None taken then!

@Bullshirt

Those are certainly the worse examples of Church values I've heard. Perhaps I could say I'm even lucky for most churches I've been to are 'missionary churches' for pastors/founder themselves are missionaries who gave everything up to build the church in a foreign land.

They would literally drive cheap, old, beat up, but small cars so it's still fuel efficient, not for the show but they were doing their best to have as little to themselves but more for the poor.

But the problem was their members. No matter how hard our pastor preached, they would just laugh at what he's saying! Believing not everyone is called to do great things for God and the poor. Sad. real sad!

Many would complain, we have nothing left after paying the bills, that's a simple problem - get a cheap place to rent, sell that luxury SUV, get a cheap/used car, sell your possessions that is beyond the basic need of food and clothing and not being used for the Gospel, settle your debts, burn your credit card, eat less!! eat less!! quit your hobbies, they idols anyways, stop useless leisure/recreational activities, stop worrying about your kid's education, save on electricity and water...

It doesn't matter how much you earn, it's never your money, it's always God's!! Even if you earn million bucks per year, still drive a cheap, small, used car!! rent cheap apartment, have only few possessions...

...Less to yourself, more to others. Stop loving your life and your family in the flesh!! Love them in the Spirit!! Get out of the addiction to pleasure, luxury, enjoyment, and wealth. Love your life, you will lose it later!!

Give to the poor, give to those who had none!! Give to the poor!! Don't Stop giving!!

In a year, we who are 'blessed' with much are collectively doing a worse crime than Adolf Hitler did, both unbelievers and Christians alike...

The unbelievers for their cold hearts and love of money and Christians for their cold hearts, love of money, and disobedience to Christ!

edit on 22-9-2012 by ahnggk because: (no reason given)

I understand what you are trying to say, but if you actually believed those words..perhaps you shouldn't have the internet connection that you are using to start this thread ? After all it does cost money.

I drive an old car, that is beat up and rusted out, but it costs in repairs, so maybe it isn't such a great money saving car ?

There is wisdom in feeding the hungry as well. Many charities that Christians have given to , in actuality do little to alleviate hunger. Unfortunately many start charities for tax evasion, and milk the proceeds.

Can we be guaranteed that the money sent to third world countries actually goes to alleviating hunger?

I also know of people who use the food banks because they choose to spend the money they have on alcohol, and drugs, and then rely on the generous to provide their food .

There are those who really do need our help , and we should try the best we can within our means to help them, but there will always be those who manipulate the generosity of others, and I do feel that has contributed to the problem.

reply to post by adjensen

Well, from the Protestant perspective, saying that people will go to hell for not doing good works is an invalid statement,

Incorrect, or, at least, too generalized.

There are differences of opinion on what "sola fide" really means. Sola fide

First of all, the idea is that one receives the Holy Spirit and THEREFORE is COMPELLED NATURALLY to do good works. The good works automatically spring from the Holy Spirit. It does not mean to all Protestants that all one has to do is say "I believe in Christ." It is fully expected that in receiving/accepting Christ, one will do good things for others as Jesus (and lots of other prophets) suggested.

There is also a semantic/interpretative debate on the subject:

There is a semantic component to this debate as well, which has gained new attention in the past century. Both Latin and English have two words to describe convictions: one is more intellectual (English belief, Latin verb credo) and one carries implications of "faithfulness" (English faith, Latin fides). But Greek and German have only one (German Glaube, Greek pistis).

Some historians have suggested that this semantic issue caused some of the disagreement:[citation needed] perhaps Luther's supporters may have understood "salvation by faith alone" to mean "salvation by being faithful to Christ", while his opponents understood him to mean "salvation by intellectual belief in Christ". Since there are passages in Luther's works that could be taken to support either of these meanings, both sides were able to quote passages from Luther defending their interpretation of what he meant.

The position that justification is by faith alone has often been charged with promoting antinomianism, in which salvific faith need not be a type that will produce works of obedience to Christ, which is a view most who hold to sola fide reject, invoking many authorities from the past and present in concurrence.

Martin Luther, who opposed antinomianism, is recorded as stating, [color=34C217]“Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.”[22]

In his Introduction to Romans, [color=34C217]Luther stated that saving faith is,

a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [23]

Scottish theologian John Murray of Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, asserted,

[color=FA2AC3]“Faith alone justifies but a justified person with faith alone would be a monstrosity which never exists in the kingdom of grace. Faith works itself out through love (Gal. 5:6). And Faith without works is dead (James 2:17-20).”

“It is living faith that justifies and living faith unites to Christ both in the virtue of his death and in the power of his resurrection. No one has entrusted himself to Christ for deliverance from the guilt of sin who has not also entrusted himself to him for deliverance from the power of sin.”[24] [25]

Contemporary evangelical theologian R. C. Sproul writes,

The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.”[26]

Dr. Michael Horton (theologian) concurs by saying,

[color=75FA28]This debate, therefore, is not over the question of whether God renews us and initiates a process of gradual growth in holiness throughout the course of our lives. ‘We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone,’ Luther stated, and this recurring affirmation of the new birth and sanctification as necessarily linked to justification leads one to wonder how the caricatures continue to be perpetuated without foundation.[27]

It clearly is not assumed -- neither by most sincere Protestants (whether members of congregations or leaders), nor by theologians past and present -- that one can simply say "I believe" and meanwhile act like a jerk and/or inflict harm on others with no worry of consequences.

I believe the idea is that we are not expected to be PERFECT, but to do our level best to live up to Christ's teachings, while allowing for the fact that as humans, we will, and do, make mistakes....these may be mistakes of omission or mistakes of behavior. Didn't do the right thing, OR did the wrong thing. In any case, it's always assumed we screw up.

reply to post by wildtimes

I believe the idea is that we are not expected to be PERFECT, but to do our level best to live up to Christ's teachings, while allowing for the fact that as humans, we will, and do, make mistakes....these may be mistakes of omission or mistakes of behavior. Didn't do the right thing, OR did the wrong thing. In any case, it's always assumed we screw up.

Well said, and as an imperfect human I appreciate those words immensely.

Thank you for bringing it to our attention.

reply to post by WhisperingWinds


Hello winds, Very glad to see we agree on that!

I hope it will clear up some of the misinformation about "Protestants." I was only brought up in one sect (Episcopal), but I certainly have always understood that most sincere Protestants do believe in extending help to others.

In fact, I think most normal, healthy PEOPLE want to help others and know compassion, which is what Jesus promoted.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by WhisperingWinds

 

Hello winds, Very glad to see we agree on that!

I hope it will clear up some of the misinformation about "Protestants." I was only brought up in one sect (Episcopal), but I certainly have always understood that most sincere Protestants do believe in extending help to others.

In fact, I think most normal, healthy PEOPLE want to help others and know compassion, which is what Jesus promoted.

Yes, Wild we most likely agree on many points, though not all.

I would venture to say that even those who may not be considered normal, or healthy by others standards, do have a heart , and may even be more giving than those considered normal or healthy by societies standards.

This misinformation about protestants also extends to other Christian denominations as well..yes..even Catholics can be gracious and giving in nature, as well as "imperfect".

Originally posted by wildtimes
I hope it will clear up some of the misinformation about "Protestants." I was only brought up in one sect (Episcopal), but I certainly have always understood that most sincere Protestants do believe in extending help to others.

Maybe you are basing your defence off of your Episcopal background -- Episcopalians (Anglican) being the closest thing to Roman Catholicism, but I assure you that many, if not most, Protestants would disagree with you. Hardcore Calvinists go so far as to say that our works, no matter how "good" they are, are repugnant to God. We are still to do them, because they benefit others, but they contribute in no way to salvation.

Sola Fide says that good works are the result of salvation, not the source of it. Now, one can play all sorts of semantic games with that (as a Protestant leaning Catholic, I have no real issue with Sola Fide, because I can see how it may be viewed as a technical matter,) but the bottom line is that "If you don't give all your money away to the poor, you will go to hell" is a direct disputation of Sola Fide, and I can't think of any Protestant theologian who would say that it is a valid statement.

It's not even really a Catholic view, either, because Catholics view damnation as the result of either an intentional rejection of Christ, or by dying in a state of mortal sin, and it would be difficult to say that anyone but a true miser would be committing a mortal sin by being uncharitable.

reply to post by adjensen

Episcopalians (Anglican) being the closest thing to Roman Catholicism, but I assure you that many, if not most, Protestants would disagree with you.

adj, the High Episcopal/Anglican church of my first memories did indeed include a Virgin Mary alcove, candles, incense, the whole nine yards....

I have lived more than 50 years among the general WASP population, and I assure you, that the traditional Protestant sects are very much keen on "charitable giving", and I just two days ago I patronized a Presbyterian church 'rummage sale' (love that quaint phrase! Reminds me of my mom and Grammie)....
bought a crock-pot for $2.

A couple of weeks earlier I patronized the "Church of Christ" (I think it was?) rummage sale in the same neighborhood (perhaps 1/4 miles away).........didn't find anything I wanted. Still ...............

whatever your interpretation of Protestant thinking and morals (you being a Catholic, that is, and I have extended family very much immersed in that culture as well, so I'm not oblivious to its practices or the range of beliefs).............

can you not concede that perhaps your understanding of their mindset is second-hand? Since you are not (yet) a Protestant, why do you feel it's your place to discuss "their" ("our") Protestant beliefs?

Question, then to ATS protestants...............
coming in a thread right now!!!!
(stay tuned! Next, on same bat-channel! )

I have also participated in several Methodist services (both holiday and funerary), attended LOTS of "non-denom" weddings,

Originally posted by wildtimes
I have lived more than 50 years among the general WASP population, and I assure you, that the traditional Protestant sects are very much keen on "charitable giving", and I just two days ago I patronized a Presbyterian church 'rummage sale' (love that quaint phrase! Reminds me of my mom and Grammie)....
bought a crock-pot for $2.

I never said that they weren't charitable, far from it -- the charity that I cited as being my favourite is a Protestant one. What I said was "Protestants don't believe that doing good deeds is necessary to keep them out of hell."

can you not concede that perhaps your understanding of their mindset is second-hand? Since you are not (yet) a Protestant, why do you feel it's your place to discuss "their" ("our") Protestant beliefs?

Prior to last April, I was a Catholic-leaning Protestant, if that helps. United Methodist since I was a teen, a leader and teacher in the church over the past ten years, and well versed in all major forms of Protestant theology, from Luther to Wesley to Zwingli and Calvin, along with a fair number of minor sects, mostly Anabaptist (out of historical interest, not religious.)

So, yes, I think I'm within my rights to discuss Protestant theology.