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Military grade thermite can be PAINTED onto beams and structural members from within elevator shafts and in effect cover much of the core with explosive material. It probably wasn't the usual variety method I don't think, but that they did use explosives to bring those buildings down is rather conclusion even if only in accordance with the immutable laws of physics including the law of free falling bodies and the three laws of motion, setting aside physical evidence of explosive residue and molten hot temperatures causing steel to literally spray as atomized droplets and to congeal in almost molten form in the pit.
Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by maxella1
Pieces of the detonators frequently survive the explosion
Ask a demolition contractor or maybe my fire chief, who is a certified arson investigator and has attended bomb
tech course at University of New Mexico where assemble a bomb then after detonation recover the pieces
to put it back together to determine what kind of device it was
Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by NewAgeMan
Military grade thermite can be PAINTED onto beams and structural members from within elevator shafts and in effect cover much of the core with explosive material. It probably wasn't the usual variety method I don't think, but that they did use explosives to bring those buildings down is rather conclusion even if only in accordance with the immutable laws of physics including the law of free falling bodies and the three laws of motion, setting aside physical evidence of explosive residue and molten hot temperatures causing steel to literally spray as atomized droplets and to congeal in almost molten form in the pit.
First - what is "military grade thermite" ? Thermite is simply mixture of iron oxides and aluminium powder
Second - to do more than simply warm the surface of the steel would require a coating SEVERAL FEET in
thickness
Here is video from MYTHBUSTERS episode - they pack 1000 lbs, thats 1/2 ton of thermite sports fans
on top of car and light it. All it did was burn a hole in the roof much less cut car in half which was objective
www.youtube.com...
You lose.........
Originally posted by maxella1
Haha you're funny.. Think for a second that no planes hit the buildings but instead the terrorists placed bombs in them.. Use your imagination how would the public respond to the "we had no idea" excuse for not holding anybody accountable. Like what happened in the real scenario, you know "failure of imagination" and nobody is responsible for not stopping it.
Why did the engineers felt that it was dangerous to remain in the lobby?
I'm talking about the Department of Buildings not the Port Authority.. Ace had the biggest ever modernization project in the towers but there is no record of it. Or maybe I just didn't find it, do you have a link?
Why are you showing me pictures of the same column from different angles?
What would they (rescue workers at Ground Zero) find in the wreckage if bombs were used Dave?
If I were to "think for a second" I would immediately wonder how tons and tons of controlled demolitions explosives made it into the building past all the thousands of NYPA police, security personnel, engineers, inspectors, and even the tenants of TWO giant skyscrapers. It's actually the very same roadblock the conspiracy theorists haven't able to get past in the last eleven years.
Becuase they're elevator engineers, not trained emergency response personnel. You seem to think that all people spontaneously revert to John Wayne and Clint Eastwood whenever a life or death situation arises, and I can tell you most certainly that's not what happens. In the real world most people will run around in circles and bounce off the walls in panic, and I know this is what they'd do because I've seen it. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that the engineers running away is proof of conspiracy somehow? You do know that's a stretch, right?
Elevators were disaster within disaster
But the Port Authority says the emergency plan called for mechanics to stay and help with rescues. "The manuals consider many emergency scenarios and describe the role of the mechanics in detail in responding to them," Port Authority spokesman Allen Morrison says. "There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own. They were, depending on the situation, to be dispatched to various emergency posts or to respond to various passenger entrapments and to assist police, fire and other rescue personnel."
No I don't. You're the one alluding to impropriety here, not me.
a) So you will know there is NO signs of sabotage from explosives anywhere on this beam. Not on the front, not on the back, not even on the ends. Yet, this is a core column where these hypothetical explosives of yours would need to have been for the building to be compromised.
I find it odd that they were meticulous enough to photograph steel glowing red hot from the underground fires and yet there's all that blown up wreckage lying all around them that noone seemed to have been able to find.
Originally posted by maxella1
Okay... You're assuming that it would take tons and tons of explosives and that thousands of people were checking what ACE employees working on the modernization project were bringing in with their equipment every time they were coming into the buildings...
How come you so quick to say that intelligence failures was the result of incompetence but not when it comes to the security in WTC?
Maybe in your "real" world people run around and bounce off the walls, but in the real world of 9/11 people did the opposite and rushed in to help any way they could... With an exception of all 80 trained elevator mechanics of course..
I'm suggesting that they could've been used as cover for planting explosives, and that they probably didn't leave on their own but they were told to leave and thats why ACE supervisors and PA made contradicting statements about the emergency response manuals and that's why they all survived (I think one of them was stuck in an elevator and died) but this can't be proved or disproved without testimony.
So if you don't have a link and I could not find it then maybe it was destroyed like the FAA, Able danger and whatever classified documents Sandy Burger felt the need to destroy.
Do you see a pattern of destroying potential evidence?
Can you explain to me why this particular column would have explosives, and what would I see in these photos if there were explosives?
Are you claiming you know more about controlled demolitions than experts who actually do controlled demolitions?
Because intelligence agencies need to interpret second and third hand information collected from half a world away. Security personnel, custodians, and building inspectors need to interpret what they're seeing with their own eyes fifteen feet away. All it would take is one guy to upset the whole apple cart.
No, actually, in the real world people are individuals and as individuals they will behave differently. Some will run away, some will rush to help others, and some will stand in place like lemmings waiting for other people to tell them what to do. There are documented cases of all of these occurring during 9/11.
Are you so sure of your theories that you're willing to accuse Peter Niederau of murder?
No, actually, I see a pattern of circular logic. You're claiming a conspiracy to destroy property cannot be proved because the evidence that proves the conspiracy was destroyed by the conspiracy. You're just restating the original statement in different terms in an attempt to prove itself. This is the same bad logic that Bible proponents use when they say "Everything in the Bible is true because it says right in the Bible that everything in the Bible is true".
In the end, all you have is the same faith based logic they do...and all without even a microbe of tangible proof to back anything up.
An excellent question. By your own argument the buildings were demolished by CD, but by every video of the collapse in existence the building had collapsed floor by floor in sequence, one after the other, which means by your own claims the columns on every single floor needed to have been rigged with CD for the building to have collapsed in that manner. Including this column.
Each floor was held in air by a horizontal brace, and contrubuted no structural integrity to any other floor. Each floor therefore had the exact same structural integrity, so if the collapsing wreckage of the upper floors were legitimately able to overcome the integrity of even one floor without the assistance of explosives, then all the floors could have legitimately collapsed without explosives, which makes your entire controlled demolitions claims moot.
Originally posted by maxella1
I see that you think security was checking what ACE were bringing in... And you call me a conspiracy theorist...
What ever you say Mr. GoodOlDave.
And I am accusing him of saving 80 lives by telling them to get the hell out of there. Maybe because he realized what was going on when the lobby started falling apart. So no Dave I'm not accusing them of mass murder. You are the one that can't put two and two together and assume that everybody had to be involved in the attack if they understood what was happening and ran away.
And before you start with your "somebody would have talked " consider the consequences they would have to suffer for whistle blowing.. Bradley Manning comes to mind..
That is a very interesting analysis but unfortunately it's completely false. Even the part that I think it was a CD is false Dave...
Probably not security, no, as they wouldn't be able to recognize the equipment being brought in. The full time staff of engineers and inspectors WOULD know what they were bring in, however. Any changes or improvements to the WTC needed to be up to code just like every other building does. What, you think anyone can just waltz into any building and start nailing mysterious components onto thr wall without anyone asking "what are you doing"?
If you're going to bring Wikileaks into the deal, you should know Julian Assange is on record as saying he disapproves of people wasting time on these groundless 9/11 conspiracies when there are so many real conspiracies out there.
Originally posted by thedman
First - what is "military grade thermite" ? Thermite is simply mixture of iron oxides and aluminium powder
Other, more exotic forms of thermite can also be produced. Using other metal Oxides, one can produce other, sometimes more powerful, blends of thermite.
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Probably not security, no, as they wouldn't be able to recognize the equipment being brought in. The full time staff of engineers and inspectors WOULD know what they were bring in, however. Any changes or improvements to the WTC needed to be up to code just like every other building does. What, you think anyone can just waltz into any building and start nailing mysterious components onto thr wall without anyone asking "what are you doing"?
The Spies Who Came in From the Art Sale
Perhaps most intriguing, the Israelis' military and intelligence specialties are listed: "special forces," "intelligence officer," "demolition/explosive ordnance specialist," "bodyguard to head of Israeli army," "electronic intercept operator" -- even "son of a two-star (Israeli) army general."
Originally posted by maxella1
Who are the full time engineers and inspectors? Why is there no records of the WTC modernization work done at the NY Dept of Buildings?
First Assange is a nobody, he is not even a whistle blower but look at what is happening to him anyway.. Manning is a whistle blower and he won't see the light of day for the rest of his life most likely.
Haha okay I give up, you win.
Originally posted by homervb
Well if MOSSAD can create a front in the form of Art Students and penetrate several government facilities what makes you doubt them being able to put a front up to get into the WTC? Of the Israeli spies rounded up there was indeed controlled demolition experts. Just food for thought.
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Can you provide even one eyewitness that confirms foreign art students were allowed to wander around in all the sensitive areas of the towers unsupervised?
"And then the surgical intervention in the World Trade Center in New York City. Everything top secret and illegal of course. In days of conspiratorial work, somewhere on the 148th floor and using building site refuse they had tediously smuggled into the building under their pullovers, they constructed a functioning load-bearing balcony. In a long complicated process they scratched putty from the tall heavy window, which couldn't be opened. Then they extracted it using suction pads, shunted the balcony out, posed on it at 6 in the morning and had themselves photographed there from a helicopter for their nearest and dearest back home. They kept very mum about it all, because if word had crept out about their coup they could have been fined very heavily for sabotaging a national treasure. Even if it was built by the Japanese. Incidentally, as proof that they were there, there is now a piece of old chewing gum stuck to the outside of the building at a dizzy height." (Tex Rubinowitz)
If not, then your theory has no more credibility than saying the towers were destroyed by leprechauns.
Originally posted by homervb
Yeah, so these art students smuggled in all of their tools and managed to remove a window and construct a platform on the 148th floor of the World Trade Center. Let me guess, this just crazy conspiracy talk, right? And BTW, I wasn't implying that art students were wandering around the WTC, I was saying MOSSAD would be capable of posing as any type of personel, and now that I've posted this gelitin article, it just goes to show the possibilities are endless.
I predict your response to this will include the words "secret sinister agents", just saying
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Originally posted by homervb
Yeah, so these art students smuggled in all of their tools and managed to remove a window and construct a platform on the 148th floor of the World Trade Center. Let me guess, this just crazy conspiracy talk, right? And BTW, I wasn't implying that art students were wandering around the WTC, I was saying MOSSAD would be capable of posing as any type of personel, and now that I've posted this gelitin article, it just goes to show the possibilities are endless.
I predict your response to this will include the words "secret sinister agents", just saying
No, actually, my response is that I'm going to have to go on the word of the New York Times article on this, as it contains a lot more information than your vague snippet.
a) they didn't sneak in- the area they were in was spare office space donated by the Trade Center as an art studio. It was only on one floor and they weren't allowed to go on any other floor.
b) They weren't even Israeli; They were Austrian, and they weren't even mysterious; everyone knew exactly who they were: Ali Janka, Florian Reither, Tobias Urban and Wolfgang Gantner.
c) there were additional artists who were there that had no connection to this group, and they say it never happened.
d) the art dealer who was supposedly the eyewitness to this event says this is a hoax.
e) the director of the art studio where this supposedly happened says this is a hoax.
New York Times article
So no, it's not crazy conspiracy talk. It's just more of the non stop phony fact twisting coming from those damned fool conspiracy web sites to make everything sound more spooky-scary than it really is. Case in point- while looking into this I discovered this entire bit originated from that crackpot Alex Jones, the same guy who invented that whole "pull it is lingo for controlled demolitions" myth. What do YOU think the odds are that he would misidentify them as being Israeli accidentally?
There are endless possibilities, all right, but not the kind of possibilities you think it is.
Although the book appears to seek notoriety, the artists have gone coy. Their dealer, who witnesses say watched the event from a hotel suite, now claims it never happened. Either the balcony was an elaborate hoax meant to look real, or the inverse is true: it really happened, and the closer it comes to being found out, the more those involved would prefer for everyone to think it was a hoax.
An examination of the security system revealed that it was focused on the ground floor and basement,
Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
reply to post by homervb
Why would you draw attention to the placing of explosives by actually constructing a physical work of art?
If the govt are involved why did they draw attention to the presence of agents by pursuing a prosecution, however abortive?
Why are Gelitin still extant?
And why have those who think they are or may have been agents not contacted them?
Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Can you provide even one eyewitness that confirms foreign art students were allowed to wander around in all the sensitive areas of the towers unsupervised?