An Open Letter to FDNY Firefighter John Schroeder from a debunker

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posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 



Military grade thermite can be PAINTED onto beams and structural members from within elevator shafts and in effect cover much of the core with explosive material. It probably wasn't the usual variety method I don't think, but that they did use explosives to bring those buildings down is rather conclusion even if only in accordance with the immutable laws of physics including the law of free falling bodies and the three laws of motion, setting aside physical evidence of explosive residue and molten hot temperatures causing steel to literally spray as atomized droplets and to congeal in almost molten form in the pit.


First - what is "military grade thermite" ? Thermite is simply mixture of iron oxides and aluminium powder

Second - to do more than simply warm the surface of the steel would require a coating SEVERAL FEET in
thickness

Here is video from MYTHBUSTERS episode - they pack 1000 lbs, thats 1/2 ton of thermite sports fans
on top of car and light it. All it did was burn a hole in the roof much less cut car in half which was objective

www.youtube.com...

You lose.........




posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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reply to post by maxella1
 


Pieces of the detonators frequently survive the explosion

Ask a demolition contractor or maybe my fire chief, who is a certified arson investigator and has attended bomb
tech course at University of New Mexico where assemble a bomb then after detonation recover the pieces
to put it back together to determine what kind of device it was



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 02:21 AM
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Double post again. Sorry
edit on 6-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by maxella1
 


Pieces of the detonators frequently survive the explosion

Ask a demolition contractor or maybe my fire chief, who is a certified arson investigator and has attended bomb
tech course at University of New Mexico where assemble a bomb then after detonation recover the pieces
to put it back together to determine what kind of device it was


How can you be so sure that pieces would survive the collapse of a 110 story building?
Why doesn't the "it was the first time in history" excuse apply to your opinion that there would have been peices of detonators in the wreckage?

We had a skyscraper collapse due to fire first time in history, why can't it be the first time that no pieces survived?
edit on 6-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 6-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 



Military grade thermite can be PAINTED onto beams and structural members from within elevator shafts and in effect cover much of the core with explosive material. It probably wasn't the usual variety method I don't think, but that they did use explosives to bring those buildings down is rather conclusion even if only in accordance with the immutable laws of physics including the law of free falling bodies and the three laws of motion, setting aside physical evidence of explosive residue and molten hot temperatures causing steel to literally spray as atomized droplets and to congeal in almost molten form in the pit.


First - what is "military grade thermite" ? Thermite is simply mixture of iron oxides and aluminium powder

Second - to do more than simply warm the surface of the steel would require a coating SEVERAL FEET in
thickness

Here is video from MYTHBUSTERS episode - they pack 1000 lbs, thats 1/2 ton of thermite sports fans
on top of car and light it. All it did was burn a hole in the roof much less cut car in half which was objective

www.youtube.com...

You lose.........


Are you serious?

Here's a video from the mythbusters-buster episode..






edit on 6-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by maxella1
 

Haha you're funny.. Think for a second that no planes hit the buildings but instead the terrorists placed bombs in them.. Use your imagination how would the public respond to the "we had no idea" excuse for not holding anybody accountable. Like what happened in the real scenario, you know "failure of imagination" and nobody is responsible for not stopping it.


If I were to "think for a second" I would immediately wonder how tons and tons of controlled demolitions explosives made it into the building past all the thousands of NYPA police, security personnel, engineers, inspectors, and even the tenants of TWO giant skyscrapers. It's actually the very same roadblock the conspiracy theorists haven't able to get past in the last eleven years.


Why did the engineers felt that it was dangerous to remain in the lobby?


Becuase they're elevator engineers, not trained emergency response personnel. You seem to think that all people spontaneously revert to John Wayne and Clint Eastwood whenever a life or death situation arises, and I can tell you most certainly that's not what happens. In the real world most people will run around in circles and bounce off the walls in panic, and I know this is what they'd do because I've seen it.

Besides, are you seriously suggesting that the engineers running away is proof of conspiracy somehow? You do know that's a stretch, right?



I'm talking about the Department of Buildings not the Port Authority.. Ace had the biggest ever modernization project in the towers but there is no record of it. Or maybe I just didn't find it, do you have a link?


No I don't. You're the one alluding to impropriety here, not me.



Why are you showing me pictures of the same column from different angles?

What would they (rescue workers at Ground Zero) find in the wreckage if bombs were used Dave?



a) So you will know there is NO signs of sabotage from explosives anywhere on this beam. Not on the front, not on the back, not even on the ends. Yet, this is a core column where these hypothetical explosives of yours would need to have been for the building to be compromised. I recognize you're not an explosives expert and neither am I, but we both know full well there'd be more obvious non-mechanical damage done to it than "none".

b) It's not the rescue workers I was referring to. It was the specially trained personnel- steel workers, demolitions experts, heavy equipment operators, and so on- who were dismantling the wreckage. I find it odd that they were meticulous enough to photograph steel glowing red hot from the underground fires and yet there's all that blown up wreckage lying all around them that noone seemed to have been able to find. Can you guess what the most obvious reason for this would be?



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 




If I were to "think for a second" I would immediately wonder how tons and tons of controlled demolitions explosives made it into the building past all the thousands of NYPA police, security personnel, engineers, inspectors, and even the tenants of TWO giant skyscrapers. It's actually the very same roadblock the conspiracy theorists haven't able to get past in the last eleven years.


Okay... You're assuming that it would take tons and tons of explosives and that thousands of people were checking what ACE employees working on the modernization project were bringing in with their equipment every time they were coming into the buildings...

How come you so quick to say that intelligence failures was the result of incompetence but not when it comes to the security in WTC?

I don't know what type and how much explosives was needed and that's why I won't argue about it. But your assumption that thousands of people were watching ACE employees and what they were bringing in is so cute that it made me laugh. I'll stop laughing if you provide a source to back it up... I'll be waiting.
Until you show me proof your theory has equal chances of being true as mine.



Becuase they're elevator engineers, not trained emergency response personnel. You seem to think that all people spontaneously revert to John Wayne and Clint Eastwood whenever a life or death situation arises, and I can tell you most certainly that's not what happens. In the real world most people will run around in circles and bounce off the walls in panic, and I know this is what they'd do because I've seen it. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that the engineers running away is proof of conspiracy somehow? You do know that's a stretch, right?


They were trained members of emergency response team and they had specific duties during emergencies.

Maybe in your "real" world people run around and bounce off the walls, but in the real world of 9/11 people did the opposite and rushed in to help any way they could... With an exception of all 80 trained elevator mechanics of course..
I'm suggesting that they could've been used as cover for planting explosives, and that they probably didn't leave on their own but they were told to leave and thats why ACE supervisors and PA made contradicting statements about the emergency response manuals and that's why they all survived (I think one of them was stuck in an elevator and died) but this can't be proved or disproved without testimony.



Elevators were disaster within disaster

But the Port Authority says the emergency plan called for mechanics to stay and help with rescues. "The manuals consider many emergency scenarios and describe the role of the mechanics in detail in responding to them," Port Authority spokesman Allen Morrison says. "There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own. They were, depending on the situation, to be dispatched to various emergency posts or to respond to various passenger entrapments and to assist police, fire and other rescue personnel."




No I don't. You're the one alluding to impropriety here, not me.


So if you don't have a link and I could not find it then maybe it was destroyed like the FAA, Able danger and whatever classified documents Sandy Burger felt the need to destroy.

Do you see a pattern of destroying potential evidence?



a) So you will know there is NO signs of sabotage from explosives anywhere on this beam. Not on the front, not on the back, not even on the ends. Yet, this is a core column where these hypothetical explosives of yours would need to have been for the building to be compromised.


Can you explain to me why this particular column would have explosives, and what would I see in these photos if there were explosives?



I find it odd that they were meticulous enough to photograph steel glowing red hot from the underground fires and yet there's all that blown up wreckage lying all around them that noone seemed to have been able to find.


What do you need to see on pictures that would prove explosives?
edit on 8-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by maxella1
 

Okay... You're assuming that it would take tons and tons of explosives and that thousands of people were checking what ACE employees working on the modernization project were bringing in with their equipment every time they were coming into the buildings...


I'm not assuming anything, actually. I'm quoting the Controlled Demolitions, Inc. web site saying that it required one and a half tons of explosives for them to demolish the J.L. Hudson department store in Detroit in 1998, which had 33 floors. Each tower had 110 floors, and there were two of them. Using that as a model it would take at a very unrealistic minimum, nine tons.

Are you claiming you know more about controlled demolitions than experts who actually do controlled demolitions?


How come you so quick to say that intelligence failures was the result of incompetence but not when it comes to the security in WTC?


Because intelligence agencies need to interpret second and third hand information collected from half a world away. Security personnel, custodians, and building inspectors need to interpret what they're seeing with their own eyes fifteen feet away. All it would take is one guy to upset the whole apple cart.



Maybe in your "real" world people run around and bounce off the walls, but in the real world of 9/11 people did the opposite and rushed in to help any way they could... With an exception of all 80 trained elevator mechanics of course..


No, actually, in the real world people are individuals and as individuals they will behave differently. Some will run away, some will rush to help others, and some will stand in place like lemmings waiting for other people to tell them what to do. There are documented cases of all of these occurring during 9/11.


I'm suggesting that they could've been used as cover for planting explosives, and that they probably didn't leave on their own but they were told to leave and thats why ACE supervisors and PA made contradicting statements about the emergency response manuals and that's why they all survived (I think one of them was stuck in an elevator and died) but this can't be proved or disproved without testimony.


You are walking on dangerous ground here, because in case you didn't notice, you are accusing these engineers of being accessories to mass murder. A quick Google search reveals the supervisor in charge of the ACE modernization project at the WTC was Peter Niederau, and as supervisor of that whole project he would certainly have been THE central person responsible for rigging the towers with these hypothetical CD of yours. Are you so sure of your theories that you're willing to accuse Peter Niederau of murder? Or are you now having second thoughts because you're accusing a real live identifiable human being of murder to his face instead of some abstract shadowy entity that's safe to slander?


So if you don't have a link and I could not find it then maybe it was destroyed like the FAA, Able danger and whatever classified documents Sandy Burger felt the need to destroy.

Do you see a pattern of destroying potential evidence?


No, actually, I see a pattern of circular logic. You're claiming a conspiracy to destroy property cannot be proved because the evidence that proves the conspiracy was destroyed by the conspiracy. You're just restating the original statement in different terms in an attempt to prove itself. This is the same bad logic that Bible proponents use when they say "Everything in the Bible is true because it says right in the Bible that everything in the Bible is true".

In the end, all you have is the same faith based logic they do...and all without even a microbe of tangible proof to back anything up.


Can you explain to me why this particular column would have explosives, and what would I see in these photos if there were explosives?


An excellent question. By your own argument the buildings were demolished by CD, but by every video of the collapse in existence the building had collapsed floor by floor in sequence, one after the other, which means by your own claims the columns on every single floor needed to have been rigged with CD for the building to have collapsed in that manner. Including this column.

Each floor was held in air by a horizontal brace, and contrubuted no structural integrity to any other floor. Each floor therefore had the exact same structural integrity, so if the collapsing wreckage of the upper floors were legitimately able to overcome the integrity of even one floor without the assistance of explosives, then all the floors could have legitimately collapsed without explosives, which makes your entire controlled demolitions claims moot.
edit on 11-10-2012 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 





Are you claiming you know more about controlled demolitions than experts who actually do controlled demolitions?


No I do not claim that I know anything about controlled demolition... I answered this question before you even asked it in the post you just replied to.




Because intelligence agencies need to interpret second and third hand information collected from half a world away. Security personnel, custodians, and building inspectors need to interpret what they're seeing with their own eyes fifteen feet away. All it would take is one guy to upset the whole apple cart.


I see that you think security was checking what ACE were bringing in... And you call me a conspiracy theorist...
What ever you say Mr. GoodOlDave.




No, actually, in the real world people are individuals and as individuals they will behave differently. Some will run away, some will rush to help others, and some will stand in place like lemmings waiting for other people to tell them what to do. There are documented cases of all of these occurring during 9/11.


I also see that you think all 80 individuals who are trained and expected to assist rescue workers during evacuation freaked out and completely forgot that according to their protocols they were supposed to do something, and without instructions left the buildings... I guess it could be true but I have a different opinion about it.



Are you so sure of your theories that you're willing to accuse Peter Niederau of murder?


Actually Dave I am aware that Peter Niederau was the supervisor who said that they acted according to the guidelines, but PA were surprised that no one told them that the guidelines were changed because they thought elevator mechanics were part of the emergency response team.

And I am accusing him of saving 80 lives by telling them to get the hell out of there. Maybe because he realized what was going on when the lobby started falling apart. So no Dave I'm not accusing them of mass murder. You are the one that can't put two and two together and assume that everybody had to be involved in the attack if they understood what was happening and ran away.

And before you start with your "somebody would have talked " consider the consequences they would have to suffer for whistle blowing.. Bradley Manning comes to mind..


No, actually, I see a pattern of circular logic. You're claiming a conspiracy to destroy property cannot be proved because the evidence that proves the conspiracy was destroyed by the conspiracy. You're just restating the original statement in different terms in an attempt to prove itself. This is the same bad logic that Bible proponents use when they say "Everything in the Bible is true because it says right in the Bible that everything in the Bible is true".


First I can't prove anything.. Second it's very logical to assume that the purpose of destroying documents that would be used in an investigation is to cover up something that would reveal some unpleasant things.



In the end, all you have is the same faith based logic they do...and all without even a microbe of tangible proof to back anything up.


No in this matter it's called logic not faith.
Certain individuals and certain groups of individuals behave like they are covering up things. And my belief is that innocent people don't go to a Government library to remove and destroy classified documents prior to a scheduled interview with Investigators for fun..




An excellent question. By your own argument the buildings were demolished by CD, but by every video of the collapse in existence the building had collapsed floor by floor in sequence, one after the other, which means by your own claims the columns on every single floor needed to have been rigged with CD for the building to have collapsed in that manner. Including this column.
Each floor was held in air by a horizontal brace, and contrubuted no structural integrity to any other floor. Each floor therefore had the exact same structural integrity, so if the collapsing wreckage of the upper floors were legitimately able to overcome the integrity of even one floor without the assistance of explosives, then all the floors could have legitimately collapsed without explosives, which makes your entire controlled demolitions claims moot.


That is a very interesting analysis but unfortunately it's completely false. Even the part that I think it was a CD is false Dave...



edit on 11-10-2012 by maxella1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by maxella1
I see that you think security was checking what ACE were bringing in... And you call me a conspiracy theorist...
What ever you say Mr. GoodOlDave.


Probably not security, no, as they wouldn't be able to recognize the equipment being brought in. The full time staff of engineers and inspectors WOULD know what they were bring in, however. Any changes or improvements to the WTC needed to be up to code just like every other building does. What, you think anyone can just waltz into any building and start nailing mysterious components onto thr wall without anyone asking "what are you doing"?



And I am accusing him of saving 80 lives by telling them to get the hell out of there. Maybe because he realized what was going on when the lobby started falling apart. So no Dave I'm not accusing them of mass murder. You are the one that can't put two and two together and assume that everybody had to be involved in the attack if they understood what was happening and ran away.


I didn't say *everybody* would have been involved. I'm saying out of all the ACE engineers who could have been involved, Peter N. would definitely be involved becuase as supervisor he was snooping into what everyone was doing during the maintenance.



And before you start with your "somebody would have talked " consider the consequences they would have to suffer for whistle blowing.. Bradley Manning comes to mind..


If you're going to bring Wikileaks into the deal, you should know Julian Assange is on record as saying he disapproves of people wasting time on these groundless 9/11 conspiracies when there are so many real conspiracies out there.



That is a very interesting analysis but unfortunately it's completely false. Even the part that I think it was a CD is false Dave...


You are going to need to elaborate exactly why what I said was false. Every floor was supported entirely in air between the core columns and the perimeter columns, whether you wish to agree with the fact or not. This exlains why the design of the WTC as different from other designs-




posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 





Probably not security, no, as they wouldn't be able to recognize the equipment being brought in. The full time staff of engineers and inspectors WOULD know what they were bring in, however. Any changes or improvements to the WTC needed to be up to code just like every other building does. What, you think anyone can just waltz into any building and start nailing mysterious components onto thr wall without anyone asking "what are you doing"?


Who are the full time engineers and inspectors? Why is there no records of the WTC modernization work done at the NY Dept of Buildings?
Wishing that somebody would have or should have notice something won't make it true. The fact is that sinister secret agents as you call them had more than enough opportunity to pull it off.





If you're going to bring Wikileaks into the deal, you should know Julian Assange is on record as saying he disapproves of people wasting time on these groundless 9/11 conspiracies when there are so many real conspiracies out there.



First Assange is a nobody, he is not even a whistle blower but look at what is happening to him anyway.. Manning is a whistle blower and he won't see the light of day for the rest of his life most likely.

Second who is Assange to decide what is a real conspiracy and what isn't? It seems like he's saying that if somebody send him something about 9/11 it would be a waste of time to even look into it since it's not a "real" conspiracy..

Haha okay I give up, you win.



posted on Oct, 14 2012 @ 06:48 AM
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Originally posted by thedman
First - what is "military grade thermite" ? Thermite is simply mixture of iron oxides and aluminium powder


Your own ignorance does not make for a good argument.


Other, more exotic forms of thermite can also be produced. Using other metal Oxides, one can produce other, sometimes more powerful, blends of thermite.


Thermite

Iron oxide and aluminium is just the most basic form of thermite. There is a whole world of thermite out there just ready to be discovered, do not be afraid of the link...

Why do people keep playing ignorant about this?



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Probably not security, no, as they wouldn't be able to recognize the equipment being brought in. The full time staff of engineers and inspectors WOULD know what they were bring in, however. Any changes or improvements to the WTC needed to be up to code just like every other building does. What, you think anyone can just waltz into any building and start nailing mysterious components onto thr wall without anyone asking "what are you doing"?


Well if MOSSAD can create a front in the form of Art Students and penetrate several government facilities what makes you doubt them being able to put a front up to get into the WTC? Of the Israeli spies rounded up there was indeed controlled demolition experts. Just food for thought.




The Spies Who Came in From the Art Sale
Perhaps most intriguing, the Israelis' military and intelligence specialties are listed: "special forces," "intelligence officer," "demolition/explosive ordnance specialist," "bodyguard to head of Israeli army," "electronic intercept operator" -- even "son of a two-star (Israeli) army general."

edit on 15-10-2012 by homervb because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by maxella1

Who are the full time engineers and inspectors? Why is there no records of the WTC modernization work done at the NY Dept of Buildings?


There are two competing thoughts that come to mind when I read this. I will allow you to choose which one is a more relevent answer...

a) Seeing how lacking your information has shown to be, it's probably more reasonable to believe there are records of maintenance somewhere. It's just that you yourself don't know where they are or aren't being allowed to access them...and we both know that either will be seen as "evidence that someone is trying to hide something" to the conspiracy people.

-OR-

b) I really don't need to tell you that "we can't find records of what the elevator modernization peopel were doing! That totally proves conspiracy" is a pretty silly windmill to be chasing.



First Assange is a nobody, he is not even a whistle blower but look at what is happening to him anyway.. Manning is a whistle blower and he won't see the light of day for the rest of his life most likely.


The point is that it's unrealistic to believe insiders are going to release videos of airstrikes and classified diplomatic cables but not information about a secret global conspiracy that murdered 3000 people. Besides, the only reason Manning was even caught was because he couldn't keep his mouth shut- he enjoyed bragging he was the one who gave the material to wikileaks on online chat forums.




Haha okay I give up, you win.


I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the inability to produce even a microbe of actual tangible evidence in the last ten years shows that the conspiracy theorists lost the debate before you even began corresponding with me on this thread.
edit on 16-10-2012 by GoodOlDave because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 16 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by homervb

Well if MOSSAD can create a front in the form of Art Students and penetrate several government facilities what makes you doubt them being able to put a front up to get into the WTC? Of the Israeli spies rounded up there was indeed controlled demolition experts. Just food for thought.


...and just like every other conspiracy theory, the devil is in the details. The towers were routinely occupied by tens of thousands of tenants, security personnel, maintenance workers, and tourists, and most of them survived the attack (it was predominantly the people above the impact areas who were trapped in the building when it came down). Can you provide even one eyewitness that confirms foreign art students were allowed to wander around in all the sensitive areas of the towers unsupervised?

If not, then your theory has no more credibility than saying the towers were destroyed by leprechauns.



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Can you provide even one eyewitness that confirms foreign art students were allowed to wander around in all the sensitive areas of the towers unsupervised?


Why yes, I can


Gelitin; The B-Thing August, 2001


"And then the surgical intervention in the World Trade Center in New York City. Everything top secret and illegal of course. In days of conspiratorial work, somewhere on the 148th floor and using building site refuse they had tediously smuggled into the building under their pullovers, they constructed a functioning load-bearing balcony. In a long complicated process they scratched putty from the tall heavy window, which couldn't be opened. Then they extracted it using suction pads, shunted the balcony out, posed on it at 6 in the morning and had themselves photographed there from a helicopter for their nearest and dearest back home. They kept very mum about it all, because if word had crept out about their coup they could have been fined very heavily for sabotaging a national treasure. Even if it was built by the Japanese. Incidentally, as proof that they were there, there is now a piece of old chewing gum stuck to the outside of the building at a dizzy height." (Tex Rubinowitz)


Yeah, so these art students smuggled in all of their tools and managed to remove a window and construct a platform on the 148th floor of the World Trade Center. Let me guess, this just crazy conspiracy talk, right? And BTW, I wasn't implying that art students were wandering around the WTC, I was saying MOSSAD would be capable of posing as any type of personel, and now that I've posted this gelitin article, it just goes to show the possibilities are endless.

I predict your response to this will include the words "secret sinister agents", just saying



If not, then your theory has no more credibility than saying the towers were destroyed by leprechauns.


What was that? No credibility? Pshhhh. You're credibility lies within the pages of the 9/11 Commission Report which has been discredited by most of those who wrote the damn book. When will you stop defending an admittedly-flawed government publication?



edit on 17-10-2012 by homervb because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 17 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by homervb
Yeah, so these art students smuggled in all of their tools and managed to remove a window and construct a platform on the 148th floor of the World Trade Center. Let me guess, this just crazy conspiracy talk, right? And BTW, I wasn't implying that art students were wandering around the WTC, I was saying MOSSAD would be capable of posing as any type of personel, and now that I've posted this gelitin article, it just goes to show the possibilities are endless.

I predict your response to this will include the words "secret sinister agents", just saying


No, actually, my response is that I'm going to have to go on the word of the New York Times article on this, as it contains a lot more information than your vague snippet.

a) they didn't sneak in- the area they were in was spare office space donated by the Trade Center as an art studio. It was only on one floor and they weren't allowed to go on any other floor.
b) They weren't even Israeli; They were Austrian, and they weren't even mysterious; everyone knew exactly who they were: Ali Janka, Florian Reither, Tobias Urban and Wolfgang Gantner.
c) there were additional artists who were there that had no connection to this group, and they say it never happened.
d) the art dealer who was supposedly the eyewitness to this event says this is a hoax.
e) the director of the art studio where this supposedly happened says this is a hoax.

New York Times article

So no, it's not crazy conspiracy talk. It's just more of the non stop phony fact twisting coming from those damned fool conspiracy web sites to make everything sound more spooky-scary than it really is. Case in point- while looking into this I discovered this entire bit originated from that crackpot Alex Jones, the same guy who invented that whole "pull it is lingo for controlled demolitions" myth. What do YOU think the odds are that he would misidentify them as being Israeli accidentally?

There are endless possibilities, all right, but not the kind of possibilities you think it is.



posted on Oct, 18 2012 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by homervb
Yeah, so these art students smuggled in all of their tools and managed to remove a window and construct a platform on the 148th floor of the World Trade Center. Let me guess, this just crazy conspiracy talk, right? And BTW, I wasn't implying that art students were wandering around the WTC, I was saying MOSSAD would be capable of posing as any type of personel, and now that I've posted this gelitin article, it just goes to show the possibilities are endless.

I predict your response to this will include the words "secret sinister agents", just saying


No, actually, my response is that I'm going to have to go on the word of the New York Times article on this, as it contains a lot more information than your vague snippet.

a) they didn't sneak in- the area they were in was spare office space donated by the Trade Center as an art studio. It was only on one floor and they weren't allowed to go on any other floor.
b) They weren't even Israeli; They were Austrian, and they weren't even mysterious; everyone knew exactly who they were: Ali Janka, Florian Reither, Tobias Urban and Wolfgang Gantner.
c) there were additional artists who were there that had no connection to this group, and they say it never happened.
d) the art dealer who was supposedly the eyewitness to this event says this is a hoax.
e) the director of the art studio where this supposedly happened says this is a hoax.

New York Times article

So no, it's not crazy conspiracy talk. It's just more of the non stop phony fact twisting coming from those damned fool conspiracy web sites to make everything sound more spooky-scary than it really is. Case in point- while looking into this I discovered this entire bit originated from that crackpot Alex Jones, the same guy who invented that whole "pull it is lingo for controlled demolitions" myth. What do YOU think the odds are that he would misidentify them as being Israeli accidentally?

There are endless possibilities, all right, but not the kind of possibilities you think it is.


No, you're completely misinterpreting the article, not a surprise.



Although the book appears to seek notoriety, the artists have gone coy. Their dealer, who witnesses say watched the event from a hotel suite, now claims it never happened. Either the balcony was an elaborate hoax meant to look real, or the inverse is true: it really happened, and the closer it comes to being found out, the more those involved would prefer for everyone to think it was a hoax.


This doesn't mean it never happened.

The act was deemed a criminal act due to structural breach therefore Gelitin was removing every trace of it from their website. And again, you missed my point. An intelligence agency can manage to disguise themselves as ANY type of personnel, hence moles within the government. I'm not saying these were Israeli art students. I'm saying if MOSSAD can pose as something as simple as art students, they can damn well pose as employees within the building or even maintenance. If you can't fathom that idea than you're severely undermining the capabilities of intelligence agencies around the world.



An examination of the security system revealed that it was focused on the ground floor and basement,


The only real security in the WTC was on the ground floor and the basement. I'm pretty sure intelligence agents would be able to manage moving items (explosives) through out the WTC over a long period of time whether they're disguised as personnel of the WTC or employees with in it. Do you really think it's that impossible of an idea? What if tenants within the WTC had hired Urban Moving Systems to move stuff in and out of the building? You don't know, I don't know, but I'm sure allowed to speculate. I know you're going to completely shoot this HYPOTHETICAL idea down but I'm glad I'm able to open my mind a bit instead of sticking to a flawed government publication aka The 9/11 Commission Report.



posted on Oct, 18 2012 @ 08:30 AM
link   
reply to post by homervb
 


Why would you draw attention to the placing of explosives by actually constructing a physical work of art?

If the govt are involved why did they draw attention to the presence of agents by pursuing a prosecution, however abortive?

Why are Gelitin still extant?

And why have those who think they are or may have been agents not contacted them?



posted on Oct, 18 2012 @ 09:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
reply to post by homervb
 


Why would you draw attention to the placing of explosives by actually constructing a physical work of art?

If the govt are involved why did they draw attention to the presence of agents by pursuing a prosecution, however abortive?

Why are Gelitin still extant?

And why have those who think they are or may have been agents not contacted them?


Oh..my..god...You are missing the point here. I'm not saying these artists were the ones placing explosives. I had said that MOSSAD agents could pose as any type of personnel, they've managed to pose as art students and gain access to military facilities.


GoodOlDave then told me to give an example of art students, not israeli art students, just art students, wandering around the WTC.



Originally posted by GoodOlDave
Can you provide even one eyewitness that confirms foreign art students were allowed to wander around in all the sensitive areas of the towers unsupervised?


So in response I posted the article that says foreign art students constructed a platform on the outside of the WTC.

The main point, once again, is that hypothetically it is possible for MOSSAD agents to pose at any type of WTC personnel or even employees of tenants there were within the WTC. Janitorial, security, whatever it may be, if intelligence agencies can manage to infiltrate government branches they can most definitely infiltrate a non-government building.
edit on 18-10-2012 by homervb because: (no reason given)



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