An Open Letter to FDNY Firefighter John Schroeder from a debunker

reply to post by thedman




Maybe a longtime security director of the World Trade Center can tell us who, when and for how long exactly had access to these areas?

Unfortunately no he cannot tell us anything...

Karpiloff, who worked for the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey in different capacities for nearly 30 years, was last seen in one of the World Trade Center's command centers, underground. He was scrambling to help tenants and workers when the twin towers collapsed within minutes of each other.

As longtime security director of the World Trade Center, Karpiloff was originally on site Sept. 11 to help John O'Neill, his successor, become acclimated to his first days on the job. Karpiloff had moved to a different security position within the New York Port Authority since the World Trade Center was sold earlier this year.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
I'm not going to get banned for attacking a statement, i.e. words on my screen. And if I do, then so be it.

The rules are pretty strict now and you've pretty much been claiming people are being deliberately and specifically dishonest:

This statement above is absolute, deliberate, calculated dishonesty.

I am not, please do not accuse me of this.

Those are not "devastatingly powerful explosive sounds". Those are very noticeable wind sounds, up close, right on the microphone. You can also hear the wind in the background. I just checked the weather in NYC on 9/11, the winds were light, so you can't really use that excuse.

The sounds in "9/11 Eyewitness" sound like far away booms, just like far away thunder sounds like far away booms.

Just like wind sounds like far away booms. The major difference is that if you have multiple videos of a lightning storm from many angles, the sounds will sync up. However, we have multiple videos of the WTC impacts from many angles and these apparently hugely powerful explosives are not in evidence at all

(warning: fairly disturbing hearing people react to it)

On the contrary, even a small explosive (300g is too small to even take out a single column) from 2 kilometres makes a distinctive found rather than a low frequency rumble:

Wind blowing at the same exact time as all three building collapses and for the duration of all three collapses is the opposite of random.

Right, the wind is actually blowing constantly but because you are selecting only the parts that would agree with you you've found coincidences where there are none.

I posted two papers by two PhD's on the seismograph readings. If you choose to ignore those, then that's your bad.

So why are these PhDs correct and the others not? Could it be that you posted the evidence that agrees with you, rather than taking a balanced view of things?

Numerous witnesses, including many in the First Responder Oral Histories, testified to low-level rumbles (and explosions) coming from the WTC. So again, corroborated.

You've even had to drop off 'said nearly the same number as what i counted'. Someone saying there was an explosion in a fire is not corroboration that locally silent but distant rumbling sounds = controlled demolition. This isn't even the beginnings of a chain of evidence, it's just cherry picking.

Actually, wind gets compressed when going between buildings and thus blows harder than being out in the open. How come we don't hear wind in any other WTC video? Because the winds were light and didn't register on microphones.

As far as the microphones on the scene, there was alot of city noise, sirens, screaming people, etc., drowning out microphones. Across the Hudson, there were no city noises, sirens, etc.

Microphones are diaphragms. If they are being drowned out they are undergoing clipping. In the video I posted above even police sirens are not clipping, which indicates it's a microphone with AGC. This would not magically eliminate the sounds of explosives.

But, I see what's going on here and am not going to be a part of it. And as such, this conversation ends here.

You've clearly already convinced yourself. I'm just trying to explain to you why your evidence isn't accepted. Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant, but people can clearly watch the videos posted above and note the massive difference.

Originally posted by maxella1

Are you seriously telling me that people needed to show a security pass to go from floor to floor? Hahahaha

I personally been in those buildings dozens of times and all I had to do was sign my name, where I was going and the time at the security desk to receive a visitors pass and then I was free to go to any floor I wanted. There were no check points in those buildings on every floor...

Methinks you're leaving a detail or two out of that statement. The tenants of the WTC operated just like every other company in the world operated- they had reception at the front door that intercepted people entering their premises. If they had legitimate business there then they were allowed entry, and if they were trouble makers then they called building security. I said each tenant screened who was entering the premises and they did it by issuing passes. I never said they were guarded with barbed wire and soldiers with machine guns like Checkpoint Charlie.

If you are attempting to claim any salesman or tourist (on in the conspiracy theorists' case, sinister secret agents dragging crates of C4 behind them) could just walk in without even so much as a "hey, who are you?" somewhere then you'll forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt. People can't even get past reception in my own office building, and we don't work in a skyscraper.

And if you want to use your tall female friend from NJ who personally knew John O'Neill as a source of the security procedures then PLEASE DO ask her if she needed a security pass to go where O'Neill worked or to go from floor to floor.

I'm not going to ask her that as it is a question based upon a false assumption- it is utterly impossible for any such controlled demolitions to have been planted in the buildings without anyone noticing what was going on and the people who actually worked there confirm the statement. Whether or not people had free access to John O'Neil's office is really irrelevent.

Well I guess we'll never know now, Bye bye Dave...

Ummm, good bye. Are you going someplace good?

Originally posted by maxella1

 

The eyewitness accounts state that the flashes came first and continued while the building was collapsing. Also the flashes were at a much lower level than where the damage was.

I wish you could respond and explain what flames were being pushed out of the floors nowhere near the fire or collapse?

I read those eyewitness accounts and not a single one of them said what specific floor these explosions wer eon. One of them simply said it was "around the middle of the tower" which is pretty subjective. The only thing we can positively determine is that it wasn't the top and it wasn't the bottom.

...and I will ask in turn, after the first impact every camera in Manhattan was filming what was happening there from every perceived angle. Why is there no confirmation of these secondary explosions in the video record? I don't need to tell you that "red and orange flashes all around the building" would stand out pretty conspicuously, particularly when it occurred before the building collapsed, and plus, I don't need to tell you what they did describe does look a heck of a lot like that fireball that erupted the moment the building collapsed.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

Methinks you're leaving a detail or two out of that statement. The tenants of the WTC operated just like every other company in the world operated- they had reception at the front door that intercepted people entering their premises.

I personally (as in myself) has been in those buildings on multiple floors and all I had to do was sign my name, the time I entered the building, and the company that I was going to. And I was issued a pass which looked something like this . And after that nobody checked where thousands of people were going everyday. So... What's your point Dave?

If you are attempting to claim any salesman or tourist (on in the conspiracy theorists' case, sinister secret agents dragging crates of C4 behind them) could just walk in without even so much as a "hey, who are you?" somewhere then you'll forgive me if I take that with a grain of salt. People can't even get past reception in my own office building, and we don't work in a skyscraper.

In case you didn't read my post about ACE Elevators ..

So let me ask you something, if you were one of the sinister secret agents who wanted to set up bombs in places where it could bring down the building would you want to get into Security Traders Association, Inc on the 45th floor or somewhere Ace Elevator people were going in and out of all day long, with all the heavy crates that you could use for dragging all the C4 you needed?

Now I know what you wanna say real bad.... So now ACE Elevator company is in on it?????? And to hat I respond by asking you to show me who looked into it ?

Ummm, good bye. Are you going someplace good?

Glad to see you are still here.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

I read those eyewitness accounts and not a single one of them said what specific floor these explosions wer eon. One of them simply said it was "around the middle of the tower" which is pretty subjective. The only thing we can positively determine is that it wasn't the top and it wasn't the bottom.

You should read them again and pay attention to what you are reading not what you are thinking...
I don't think I had your take on this video yet.. Let me know what you think he's talking about..

...and I will ask in turn, after the first impact every camera in Manhattan was filming what was happening there from every perceived angle. Why is there no confirmation of these secondary explosions in the video record? I don't need to tell you that "red and orange flashes all around the building" would stand out pretty conspicuously, particularly when it occurred before the building collapsed, and plus, I don't need to tell you what they did describe does look a heck of a lot like that fireball that erupted the moment the building collapsed.

You already know that to me the confirmation comes from people I know and trust who were there during the collapse. Nothing you can say will change what they saw.

As far as the video I don't know and I don't care... Just like I don't care about the video at the Pentagon, something hit it but we can't see what it was on video right?

reply to post by maxella1


So now the elevator mechanics are in on the conspiracy.....

This keeps getting deeper and deeper

The elevator mechanics you refer to were there to perform maintenance and inspections on the elevators in
WTC (there were 99 in each tower)

You dont seem to be aware of the difference between an elevator mechanic and an operator who ran the elevator
between floors

Even then all the personnel who worked in WTC had to undergo background checks - one of my friends is
an elevator mechanic, he personally knows many of the people who worked there . No secret ninjas.......

reply to post by thedman


How about you actually read what i posted before you talk about secret ninjas...

Originally posted by maxella1
So let me ask you something, if you were one of the sinister secret agents who wanted to set up bombs in places where it could bring down the building would you want to get into Security Traders Association, Inc on the 45th floor or somewhere Ace Elevator people were going in and out of all day long, with all the heavy crates that you could use for dragging all the C4 you needed?

You have to know that if I was one of those sinister secret agents planting bombs in the WTC I wouldn't waste my time on some convoluted Rube Goldberg plot to conceal the bombs by hiring 100,000 other sinister secret agents to stage plane hijackings and pretending to crash them into the buildings and leaving red herrings by crashing them into the Pentagon and out in the middle of nowhere in PA. I'd blow the [censored] out of the buildings and I wouldn't care in the least if people knew I used a bomb to do it. The place was already bombed back in 1993 so that cat was already out of the bag.

Now I know what you wanna say real bad.... So now ACE Elevator company is in on it?????? And to hat I respond by asking you to show me who looked into it ?

The work crews clearing out the wreckage at ground zero who would have discovered the blatant sabotage any explosives would have left behind.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

You have to know that if I was one of those sinister secret agents planting bombs in the WTC I wouldn't waste my time on some convoluted Rube Goldberg plot to conceal the bombs by hiring 100,000 other sinister secret agents to stage plane hijackings and pretending to crash them into the buildings and leaving red herrings by crashing them into the Pentagon and out in the middle of nowhere in PA. I'd blow the [censored] out of the buildings and I wouldn't care in the least if people knew I used a bomb to do it. The place was already bombed back in 1993 so that cat was already out of the bag.

I didn't ask you about the planes Dave. You insist that it would be impossible for anybody to install explosives without being noticed.

So how hard would it be for terrorists to use Ace Elevators modernization project to bring in and install explosives?

The work crews clearing out the wreckage at ground zero who would have discovered the blatant sabotage any explosives would have left behind.

What would they have found in the wreckage?

Did they find all of the parts of the electrical wires, plumbing, or identifiable computers, furniture, telephones, etc.?

Originally posted by maxella1
I didn't ask you about the planes Dave. You insist that it would be impossible for anybody to install explosives without being noticed.

No, you asked me what I would do if I were one of these hypothetic sinister secret agents plotting to blow up the towers and I told you. The planes are a major component of your conspiracy claims as they're apparently being used as a cover story to conceal the bombings, are they not? The point is, why the heck would anyone even waste their time trying to conceal the bombings to begin with? The building was already bombed in 1993.

So how hard would it be for terrorists to use Ace Elevators modernization project to bring in and install explosives?

Seeing that the building had its own full time staff of engineers, electricians, inspectors, etc etc etc supervising what was going on to make sure any changes were still up to code...like ever other building management does... I'd say 95% improbable. It jumps up to 98% improbable when we find out the 80 or so Ace engineers involved in the project were still in the buildings when the planes hit and they were freaked out over what was going on as everyone else was.

What would they have found in the wreckage?

Did they find all of the parts of the electrical wires, plumbing, or identifiable computers, furniture, telephones, etc.?

These sinister secret agents wouldn't have planted explosives in the computers, furniture, or telephones. They would have planted them in or on the support columns, and they recovered those in abundance. Not a single component showed signs of being compromised by even so much as a firecracker. Would you like me to post these photos again?

reply to post by GoodOlDave

The point is, why the heck would anyone even waste their time trying to conceal the bombings to begin with? The building was already bombed in 1993.

I wonder what would people have to say if WTC was bombed AGAIN .. How would the agencies responsible for protecting us explain the "it was a surprise attack and we had no idea it could happen" if no planes were used? Any ideas Dave? Do you think somebody would get some serious consequences in this scenario ?

Seeing that the building had its own full time staff of engineers, electricians, inspectors, etc etc etc supervising what was going on to make sure any changes were still up to code...like ever other building management does... I'd say 95% improbable. It jumps up to 98% improbable when we find out the 80 or so Ace engineers involved in the project were still in the buildings when the planes hit and they were freaked out over what was going on as everyone else was.

They were freaked out for sure, so freaked out that they completely forgot that people could be trapped in the elevators and left the buildings.

343 firefighters and 1 Ace employee were killed for trying to evacuate the buildings, The rest of the engineers thank God survived.

I'm not accusing the engineers of anything, but why did ACE Elevator supervisors said that it was the procedure to leave when it wasn't? And I couldn't find a singe ACE employee testimony where they say whether they left on their own or somebody told them to leave.

And how come NYC Department of Buildings has no records of the Ace modernization project prior to 9/11

Elevators were disaster within disaster

"We were standing there trying to count heads when the second plane hit (the south tower)," said Peter Niederau, ACE Elevator's supervisor of the modernization project. "Parts of the lobby and glass were coming down around us, so we all got out of the lobby as fast as we could."

On Sept. 11, the mechanics left on their own, without instructions from police or fire officials. ACE Elevator supervisors say this was consistent with the emergency plan. All the mechanics survived. "We had a procedure. We had a procedure to follow, and they (the mechanics) followed it," Niederau says.

But the Port Authority says the emergency plan called for mechanics to stay and help with rescues. "The manuals consider many emergency scenarios and describe the role of the mechanics in detail in responding to them," Port Authority spokesman Allen Morrison says. "There was no situation in which the mechanics were advised or instructed to leave on their own. They were, depending on the situation, to be dispatched to various emergency posts or to respond to various passenger entrapments and to assist police, fire and other rescue personnel."

These sinister secret agents wouldn't have planted explosives in the computers, furniture, or telephones. They would have planted them in or on the support columns, and they recovered those in abundance. Not a single component showed signs of being compromised by even so much as a firecracker. Would you like me to post these photos again?

Wait a minute, wouldn't the explosives actually explode into little pieces and then get the building crush everything so bad that almost nothing large enough to be identifiable was found in the wreckage?

Originally posted by maxella1

I wonder what would people have to say if WTC was bombed AGAIN .. How would the agencies responsible for protecting us explain the "it was a surprise attack and we had no idea it could happen" if no planes were used? Any ideas Dave? Do you think somebody would get some serious consequences in this scenario ?

I cannot speculate an answer without more information to go on. Can you provide more details on this event that hasn't happened?

I'm not accusing the engineers of anything, but why did ACE Elevator supervisors said that it was the procedure to leave when it wasn't? And I couldn't find a singe ACE employee testimony where they say whether they left on their own or somebody told them to leave.

That should be obvious- they didn't want to get killed any more than the thousands of other people evacuating the building wanted to get killed. Panic is a pretty good way to get people to stop thinking things through rationally. They're elevator engineers, not robots.

And how come NYC Department of Buildings has no records of the Ace modernization project prior to 9/11

Immediately after you posted this, you posted a quote stating the Port Authority's operating procedures expected these engineers to stay at their post. It certainly sounds like they knew they were at the building, to me.

Wait a minute, wouldn't the explosives actually explode into little pieces and then get the building crush everything so bad that almost nothing large enough to be identifiable was found in the wreckage?

Not true. The specific areas of the building that needed to be targetted- the core columns- survived because they were simply so massive. Here an example they retrieved and preserved at that hanger in JFK. Photos have been taken from multiple angles-











You will note that there isn't a single blast mark, melt mark, or cut mark. Instead, it's been snapped at the weld joints like a twig, tore like a piece of paper, twisted back over itself like a licorice whip, and peeled open like a banana, all because the column was hollow. I can explain how the mechanical forces of the collapse produced this pattern of damage. Can you explain how demolitions produced this pattern of damage?

reply to post by maxella1

Here's a couple more dealing with the first hand accounts.

reply to post by GoodOlDave

I cannot speculate an answer without more information to go on. Can you provide more details on this event that hasn't happened?

Haha you're funny.. Think for a second that no planes hit the buildings but instead the terrorists placed bombs in them.. Use your imagination how would the public respond to the "we had no idea" excuse for not holding anybody accountable. Like what happened in the real scenario, you know "failure of imagination" and nobody is responsible for not stopping it.

That should be obvious- they didn't want to get killed any more than the thousands of other people evacuating the building wanted to get killed. Panic is a pretty good way to get people to stop thinking things through rationally. They're elevator engineers, not robots.

Sure they didn't want to get killed. The point is that they had procedures in place that they should assist in rescue. And every single one of them deviated from their protocols. But this isn't the issue also. The question is why did ACE supervisors think that leaving the scene without orders was the procedure when the port authority were expecting them to stick around and help ? So since i couldn't find testimony from the engineers i don't know if they just had a bad feeling and all 80 of them said to themselves screw this job I don't care if I get fired I'm going home, or all 80 of them didn't know the protocols, or they were told that it was okay to leave even though nobody thought that the buildings would collapse at that time and there were people trapped in elevators and FDNY needed their help while at the same time climbing up to the area where there was actual danger . Why did the engineers felt that it was dangerous to remain in the lobby?

Immediately after you posted this, you posted a quote stating the Port Authority's operating procedures expected these engineers to stay at their post. It certainly sounds like they knew they were at the building, to me.

I'm talking about the Department of Buildings not the Port Authority.. Ace had the biggest ever modernization project in the towers but there is no record of it. Or maybe I just didn't find it, do you have a link?

Not true. The specific areas of the building that needed to be targetted- the core columns- survived because they were simply so massive. Here an example they retrieved and preserved at that hanger in JFK. Photos have been taken from multiple angles-

Why are you showing me pictures of the same column from different angles?

What would they (rescue workers at Ground Zero) find in the wreckage if bombs were used Dave?

Can you explain how demolitions produced this pattern of damage?

Nope

Originally posted by maxella1
What would they (rescue workers at Ground Zero) find in the wreckage if bombs were used Dave?

Active thermitic material, and high temperatures, maybe..?

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe
from www.benthamscience.com...

Also worthy of evaluation

The Journal of 9/11 Studies

reply to post by maxella1

What would they (rescue workers at Ground Zero) find in the wreckage if bombs were used Dave?

Copper smears on structural beams from shaped charges, pieces of shock tubes, blasting caps, detonator
wires

The WTC site was scoured by expereinced FF, bomb squad members, arson invesigators, agents from ATF
(which investigate bombings) and FBI

None of them found anything resembling a bomb or demolition charge

The debris from the site was taken to Fresh Kills landfill where it was raked over and the smallest piece of
human remains or personal effect was recovered - doubt miss anything this obvious

The bomb squad from my local sheriff department (Passaic County NJ) spent 3 weeks at the site doing recovery

Talked to several of them - none reported anything

Double post

]Originally posted by maxella1
reply to post by thedman

Copper smears on structural beams from shaped charges, pieces of shock tubes, blasting caps, detonator wires

Just out of curiosity why would pieces of shock tubes, caps, detonators or wires survive when almost none of the computers, TVs, phones did?

Military grade thermite can be PAINTED onto beams and structural members from within elevator shafts and in effect cover much of the core with explosive material. It probably wasn't the usual variety method I don't think, but that they did use explosives to bring those buildings down is rather conclusion even if only in accordance with the immutable laws of physics including the law of free falling bodies and the three laws of motion, setting aside physical evidence of explosive residue and molten hot temperatures causing steel to literally spray as atomized droplets and to congeal in almost molten form in the pit.