The Accusations Are True ATS - I Do Have An Agenda And I Have Been Manipulating You! My Confession.

Originally posted by moniesisfun
A baby crying is not of nefarious intent. It just wants a basic need met, usually. It's a primitive form of communication.

They soon learn to use it as a tool to try to get things they're not supposed to have. It blew my mind the 1st time I saw a baby being manipulative.

Originally posted by ZiggyMojo
All previous engagements within this thread aside.. I still found the OP very interesting and I found a lot of value in the exchanges I have had within. My apologies to anyone who thought I was in a pissing contest. It was not my intention to change anyone's mind, but rather explain the best I could.. My take on the whole thing. Perhaps I over-analyzed.. I don't know. I feel its a topic that has a lot more depth than what you see on the surface. I may have completely misunderstood Heff's intention.. or maybe understood part of it. Regardless, I feel this is a discussion that holds merit.

As I stated earlier. Sometimes the full potential of something isn't realized by its creator. (In this case I think it was)
These sort of topics lend themselves to expansion and I think it's our duty as members of this forum to explore all of the perspectives we can.

edit on 21-9-2012 by ZiggyMojo because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-9-2012 by ZiggyMojo because: spelling

You made some posts that made me look at things from a different perspective. Thats what I come here for and enjoy it. I remind myself often that I really dont know everything.
Not aimed at YOU.. Its just very odd to me why there is this reaction to the mention of manipulation. EVERYONE manipulates.. it starts in childhood. Its a thing that is hardwired into us.. the question is what dog do we serve with our manipulations. Do we even recognize that we DO manipulate or ever ask ourselves why we do it. Survival is mentioned and that is the very core of manipulation. For a child and many adults getting what they think they need. For some.. its the survival of a persons very reality thats at stake. WIth some of the reactions.. they dont realize they too were manipulating... using words in this case to provoke a reaction in the OP... then hate the OP for being a self avowed manipulator. I have been watching this with great interest and have read the removed posts before removal. Its really strange and unnerving to me how as adults some seem to have never noticed this or decided to be in control of their compulsions. Sometimes in certain cases.. I think they should leave the offensive posts... they are a real curiosity.

I also find it very very interesting that when I mentioned decorum, civility, and the T&C to someone.. they accused me of being Skeptic. I dont have to be a board owner or some ( to them anyway) scary, removed, and mysterious powerful authority figure to not want the content of something I enjoy to devolve into GLP gutterishness. How very bizarre...

reply to post by Hefficide

If people are Calling You Out...then you are not very good at Manipulation. True Manipulation that creates a cause and effect action...is done without anyone realizing what is going on.

The concept...and it has been around long before the Movie came out...is called...INCEPTION.

The concept is to place a seed into a person or group of peoples Subconscious that grows and allows them to believe it was their idea to begin with. If a person or group has as in this instance recognized what you are doing...you really don't know how to do it very well.
Split Infinity

reply to post by Advantage


It's alarming when you really think about the manipulation within your life. It's even scarier when you think about what you manipulate unknowingly or unintentionally. You start to see the person you really are when you can see your methods and mode of manipulation. It speaks to your true character, and a lot of people are scared of that. The ego makes it hard to accept truth sometimes.

I can't say that this subject is new to me, but it puts a good perspective on it. It has shown the idea for what it is in all colors within this thread. That's what I like about it. You can talk about something all day, but nothing really puts it into perspective until you witness it. It would be like someone actually capturing a live alien from another planet. We all speculate what they'd look like, act like, sound like, smell like.. But we would see them in a whole new perspective if we actually had a real example.

Maybe that's a bad example in itself.. But I'm not always the best with explanations.

Over 500 posts and 26 pages in. This is probably a good time to address several points and to answer several questions posed, thus far, in this thread.

First of all, the divisive and provocative thread title. I did deliberately try to create a provocative title for this thread for several reasons. One, this is ATS and many interesting threads die unsung deaths simply because they were titled in a boring manner. Secondly, since the thread is about visceral emotional reaction due to manipulation ( stimulation ) it seemed to fit. And, lastly, it organically felt like the right title as my OP was being written. It is not the title I actually had in mind when I began writing the OP in my word processing program.

As of now I am torn as to whether or not choosing the title was wise. On the one hand it landed me much more flame and vitriol than I expected or was personally in a position to cope with at this point in time. On the other hand, it proved the thesis of my OP more profoundly than I would have ever imagined. Many members seemingly posted based upon the title, and nothing else - and did so in a highly aggressive and vicious manner.

Other members took offense to the concept of the OP and voiced their opinions in a variety of ways. Many were civil, others were not. The criticisms were varied and covered many different points of view. Some said that they will never believe me, ever again. Others called my ATS moderator status into question. Some felt I was speaking down to them. Others that I possessed the literary skills of a second grader. Other opinions were voiced, but from my reading, the ones listed seem to be the "top hits" - so I feel comfortable listing those.

Motives being called into question is the one area of this that I was actually prepared to address - and this aspect did play into the way I structured my OP. I wanted my motives to be questioned. In fact I wanted to use that as a springboard to say "Why stop there? Why not question the motives of EVERY person who you recognize as manipulating you?" We all know it is a daily phenomenon. US politics serve as a great example. Every day, here on ATS, there are dozens of "Romney said this" and "Obama said that" threads. But in these threads most people don't seem to want to know why a thing was said - they merely want to react to it.

So I made a thread designed to demonstrate how reaction overpowers reason. I could have spent weeks trying to encode NLP techniques, or subliminals into it. I could have gone overboard and really paid attention to known buzz words. As it happens I did not do these things. I invested about an hour of my life into making this OP - a large chunk of that time spent finding, downloading, and then uploading images.

I knew I would get some heat. But I had no clue it would be So much heat.

So to answer the most frequently asked question so far... The threat title....

I do have an agenda: To try and share my ideas in open forum and to spark debate about those ideas - be they right/wrong/insightful/inane/ect.

And as for the "I have been manipulating you" part? Well, as has been stated by myself and many others in the thread... the statement is simply commentary upon the fact that we all manipulate one another, and ourselves, all day long, every day. It is the very crux of social interaction - and it can be used for very nefarious and widespread purposes.

Think about this. This thread is on the front page currently, as well as the "top topics" page. It also, earlier, was the sole thread listed on the forums page. A thread, on ATS, that is not about politics, an event, religion, terrorism, UFO's, bigfoot, or the latest earthquake in any given spot in the world made it to the front page. A thread about an idea, a simple idea with broad sweeping implications, cut through the usual day to day distraction and got noticed and actively engaged in.

How often does that happen?

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide



I think youre a terrible manipulator, but good at exposing manipulation. Poor man, you best ask for the sammich rather than buttering her up to make one.

If we had a magic mirror.. if we dared to look in it.. we would be ugly ugly beings. I think it jumped out of the mirror for the rest of us to see in certain instances here.. which is a treat in itself, but needed to be ended because the really interesting parts of this were being a simple hate fest suddenly and after that annoying whining and repeating goes on for a while it really irritates me. The repetitive thing really gets to me in real life too.. like a damned broken record. LOL! A person mentioned Aliens.. great example.. because I look at things said and I think.. where is this person from.. why are they like that.. theyre alien to me. Maybe Im alien to them! I bet if I looked in that mirror Id see an alien too! LOL! Introspection is not my favorite past time.

I got a real kick out the Chuck Norris and other meme experiments though.

reply to post by Advantage


Actually I can be a pretty manipulative person in real life. The irony in this thread is that the OP, itself ( title aside ) was not meant to be manipulative in any way. It was meant to discuss manipulation in a casual manner. We are all aware manipulation exists - but we become so inured to it that we actually lose our own instinctive resistance to it. It's part of information overload. The barrage of manipulation is so constant and subtle that we cannot possibly resist it all. And this is exacerbated by our own pride and ego because, as many have said here, "I'm too smart to be manipulated".

Hypnotists will often tell you that their favorite clients are the ones who swear they cannot be hypnotized because they are commonly the easiest ones to induce.

~Heff

reply to post by Advantage
If I may: You are one sharp cookie. Funny how some folk seem to hide from you here and all of a sudden they start catching your attention all over the place.

I'm surprised too--although I shouldn't be--at how many of our brothers and sisters here just didn't get it. It means, I fear, that the manipulation of minds has been wildly successful.

Heff: This thread is like a roller coaster, you have to be THIS tall to ride. Shorties had to sit it out and managed only to gripe about it.

I didn't feel much of a reaction, as I had mentioned.
But then, I have explored in depth this subject already, even in much introspection, to find manipulation is a constant. For people who just haven't done that yet, I can understand the reaction.

My work in training horses led me to be even more interested in the subject as it pertains to humans and I began doing experiments throughout the day with people- Almost no one is aware of the varied games of manipulation we are always playing with each other!

In horses, as with many social animals, for example, hierarchy establishment is done through a game of "I make you move your feet". The one who makes the other move their feet become the dominant. Could be moving any direction, but if they are doing it in reaction to the other, they just lost their position, both literally and figuratively.

This can be seen in humans in verbal exchanges (and explains trolling!), but physically, people do this game all day long. Stepping closer to another while talking, until they stepback without thinking about it. You see men do that when they fight, of course, but the most friendly conversations can be watched as a dance of power play as well.

I guess it doesn't freak me out because I've gotten used to the idea, but also because I value social groupings and see reason for hierarchial organization. Maybe it is because I am a female, so feel less pressing drive to be the dominant? I don't know.
But even once I got more accustomed to spotting the power plays and manipulations, it didn't stop me from taking part in them. The only way you can do that is become a hermit and cut off all social interaction... been there, done that, it got boring.

But boy, you got some feet scurrying this time!!

reply to post by Hefficide


LMAO, please. Oh please. This is SO corny. You must be the actual incarnation of Therman Murch from Dinner for Schmucks, right? I'm so afraid of your "mind control".

I pity the wasted time. You could have done more constructive things than manipulating yourself into thinking you have magical deluxe mind manipulation super control powers over people on an internet forum. No wonder the world is going to chaff...

reply to post by Bertha


I'm guessing that means you won't be signing up for the fan club or limited edition, signed copy of this thread?

Also - as mentioned painstakingly and repetitively, this thread as nothing to do with MY ability to manipulate - but the simple reality that we are all manipulated. Including myself.

But, hey, understanding takes work and bashing only requires a keyboard.

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide

Over 500 posts and 26 pages in. This is probably a good time to address several points and to answer several questions posed, thus far, in this thread.

First of all, the divisive and provocative thread title. I did deliberately try to create a provocative title for this thread for several reasons. One, this is ATS and many interesting threads die unsung deaths simply because they were titled in a boring manner. Secondly, since the thread is about visceral emotional reaction due to manipulation ( stimulation ) it seemed to fit. And, lastly, it organically felt like the right title as my OP was being written. It is not the title I actually had in mind when I began writing the OP in my word processing program.

As of now I am torn as to whether or not choosing the title was wise. On the one hand it landed me much more flame and vitriol than I expected or was personally in a position to cope with at this point in time. On the other hand, it proved the thesis of my OP more profoundly than I would have ever imagined. Many members seemingly posted based upon the title, and nothing else - and did so in a highly aggressive and vicious manner.

Other members took offense to the concept of the OP and voiced their opinions in a variety of ways. Many were civil, others were not. The criticisms were varied and covered many different points of view. Some said that they will never believe me, ever again. Others called my ATS moderator status into question. Some felt I was speaking down to them. Others that I possessed the literary skills of a second grader. Other opinions were voiced, but from my reading, the ones listed seem to be the "top hits" - so I feel comfortable listing those.

Motives being called into question is the one area of this that I was actually prepared to address - and this aspect did play into the way I structured my OP. I wanted my motives to be questioned. In fact I wanted to use that as a springboard to say "Why stop there? Why not question the motives of EVERY person who you recognize as manipulating you?" We all know it is a daily phenomenon. US politics serve as a great example. Every day, here on ATS, there are dozens of "Romney said this" and "Obama said that" threads. But in these threads most people don't seem to want to know why a thing was said - they merely want to react to it.

So I made a thread designed to demonstrate how reaction overpowers reason. I could have spent weeks trying to encode NLP techniques, or subliminals into it. I could have gone overboard and really paid attention to known buzz words. As it happens I did not do these things. I invested about an hour of my life into making this OP - a large chunk of that time spent finding, downloading, and then uploading images.

I knew I would get some heat. But I had no clue it would be So much heat.

So to answer the most frequently asked question so far... The threat title....

I do have an agenda: To try and share my ideas in open forum and to spark debate about those ideas - be they right/wrong/insightful/inane/ect.

And as for the "I have been manipulating you" part? Well, as has been stated by myself and many others in the thread... the statement is simply commentary upon the fact that we all manipulate one another, and ourselves, all day long, every day. It is the very crux of social interaction - and it can be used for very nefarious and widespread purposes.

Think about this. This thread is on the front page currently, as well as the "top topics" page. It also, earlier, was the sole thread listed on the forums page. A thread, on ATS, that is not about politics, an event, religion, terrorism, UFO's, bigfoot, or the latest earthquake in any given spot in the world made it to the front page. A thread about an idea, a simple idea with broad sweeping implications, cut through the usual day to day distraction and got noticed and actively engaged in.

How often does that happen?

~Heff

I think this is an amazing thread. Just looking at all the different kind of responses you got makes it very special. I can only hope that as many members as possible realize the spiritual value of so many perspectives at once.

My soul hurts when I see you get attacked on a personal level in a vicious manner. Other members have also reacted to the kind of viciousness that has taken place here. Its difficult to watch and difficult to experience.

I have hade some experiences in my life where I wanted to commit suicide because of the behavior of other people. Without a few good friends, I would not be here today. So I ask the people who do these things to think about that.

Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by Advantage

 

If I may: You are one sharp cookie.

Funny how some folk seem to hide from you here and all of a sudden they start catching your attention all over the place.

I'm surprised too--although I shouldn't be--at how many of our brothers and sisters here just didn't get it. It means, I fear, that the manipulation of minds has been wildly successful.

Heff: This thread is like a roller coaster, you have to be THIS tall to ride. Shorties had to sit it out and managed only to gripe about it.

edit on 21-9-2012 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Go figure.. and Im not even using my dogs as my avatar anymore.

Thats the sad part.. the folks who are lost and dont want to be found. I sure dont have the skills to help. Mainly 'cause..Well, I'm a demolition derby baby ,A hefty hunk of steaming junk, Now, I'm a napalm bomb, baby, Just guaranteed to blow your mind, Yeah, I'm a napalm bomb for you, baby, Oh, guaranteed, just guaranteed to blow your mind, And if I can't have your love for my own, Sweet child, won't be nothing left behind

What the hell am I doing up this late??

Originally posted by Bodhi911


My soul hurts when I see you get attacked on a personal level in a vicious manner. Other members have also reacted to the kind of viciousness that has taken place here. Its difficult to watch and difficult to experience.

I have hade some experiences in my life where I wanted to commit suicide because of the behavior of other people. Without a few good friends, I would not be here today. So I ask the people who do these things to think about that.

edit on 22-9-2012 by Bodhi911 because: (no reason given)

Im sorry to hear that. You sensitive and tender people.. the real ones... I envy you. There are a lot of fake ones.. who are bothersome. There is something that is very appealing about this quality in some people. You just remember.. the weak ones are the ones who lash out wildly. You who walk around with your hearts open to everything, that has to be a burden. You are the stronger people to endure such a thing. I would by far prefer physical pain to emotional, personally. To really feel things and empathize... some can imitate it pretty well and sincerely try, but the naturally sensitive souls.. they are a treasure IMO. One of my children is like this. So sensitive in a real way. Such an empathy for others that I dont possess. Your sort is good to have around even if you are bewildering!

reply to post by Advantage


Thank you for being encouraging!

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Hecate666

 

Not only did you miss the entire point of the OP, thread, and my posts within it, but you also demonstrated an extreme lack of basic social skills and a predisposition towards baseless assumption.

And all I did was write a fairly lighthearted thread about media manipulation.

But I am happy that I served to help you get a bit of that misdirected anger out of your soul. Hopefully it will aid you in future social interactions. Consider it my daily good deed.

~Heff

Lighthearted? Whatever floats your boat. I make baseless assumptions? They are not baseless as I have your thread right in front of me.
Life lesson: You may MEAN one thing but people can only hear or read what what they understand based on their lives, experiences, upbringing etc. Ten different people will read ten different posts, regardless of what you intended. Basic psychology. You can't have a go at them [us] for it.

Maybe if it was such a lighthearted threat it should have been under 'jokes', because it was supposed to 'amuse' me. Well it didn't. I love social science. I LOVE reading about what you tried to convey, when written in an interesting way, but I couldn't quite get into it because the whole thread revolves around YOU and not the manipulation of the masses via the media, which you throw in at the end by means of images. Yes I understand what you tried to do [as I said I am not a moron] using yourself as an example but it didn't quite work out for me. That is my valid opinion. Even if you disagree.

But thanks for replying to me as it shoes that you at least read my post.

I'm sure many of us enjoy a spot of mental manipulation, its nice for the ego and can be fun, I myself use it from time to time, I'm no expert but its a skill you learn and improve on over time. Sadly its also, in the wrong hands a destructive nightmare just as a untrained hypnotist is a dangerous being. The act of mentally manipulating a persons mind can sound very Star Wars 'use the force Luke' but its an age old skill used in one way or another from birth.

For those that enjoy it I just say don't do it for ego, you ARE messing with a persons head, your simple 'joke' can back fire terribly, unlike suggestion, manipulation can be much more profound in its effect, planting suggestion is easy but has limitations ie you can plant the suggestion all you want but the person will have barriers that they will not cross mentally, whereas manipulation can affect the person so much more directly.

Mental manipulation is a daily matter of fact happening, its used on us and by us every minute of your life for the very mundane to the very dangerous, if you enjoy this toy then use it wisely, your play thing can break if you play badly.

reply to post by Advantage

I also find it very very interesting that when I mentioned decorum, civility, and the T&C to someone.. they accused me of being Skeptic. I dont have to be a board owner or some ( to them anyway) scary, removed, and mysterious powerful authority figure to not want the content of something I enjoy to devolve into GLP gutterishness. How very bizarre...

What is bizarre is that you forget to mention, that besides refering to the T&C, you also said you despised people that "defecate in YOUR HOUSE", and that is the polite version of what you said.

You said that ATS is YOUR HOUSE.

Funny that you would forget that part. A bit manipulative, don't you think so?

So you think ATS is your house. I only ever saw one other person say that, and he actually owns the place.

Click here for more information.

reply to post by Hefficide

Also - as mentioned painstakingly and repetitively, this thread as nothing to do with MY ability to manipulate

Right,

Part of those accusations are very much true. I have been manipulating you, good citizens of ATS. I have been doing so willfully, deliberately, and with an agenda. I have been using decades of very specific training and research to achieve my goals in this endeavor and have been largely successful in my labors. I am guilty as charged. I am a manipulator.

Heck, even my confession to manipulating is, quite literally, a manipulation in and of itself. I can, at will, use it to create any number of narratives and to illicit any number of predictable and controllable responses. Any expert will tell you that sympathy is one of the most powerful tools of manipulation that exist. It can be used quite effectively and powerfully to alter perception and opinion almost instantly. For example:

But I have an edge on most of them. I'm good at it. I have that natural gift... the ability to connect and to create trust and empathy with just a smile or with eye contact.

This is how I learned my skills – and how I have gained my expertise. By being a people person. And, in past years. By using it to be predatory and opportunistic. Maybe these are just personal, lesser manipulations as I work on my larger manipulations. One could fry a few brain cells keeping track.

Are you afraid yet? Are you beginning to question it all yet? Good. Now as to whether or not you should fear me. I leave that up to you.

And maybe offer a word of thanks to the cranky old ATS moderator who clued you in on a few of the tricks of the trade.

So except for the accusations you mention, that were really made, and all those qoutes about how good you are at manipulation, it has nothing to do with you.

A person who began a dialougue with the words “I am writing these words to manipulate you. I tell you this up front and with no shame...” Just showed you in a very simple, and uncomplicated manner, how easy it is to do. I did this as a concerned and caring member of your community.

No you didn't. If the point was to show how easy it is to manipulate people, you would not disclose it before you got some reactions.

You did not get any reaction before you said that, so how does it show that your words manipulated people. It makes no sense logically.

This is one reason why your excuse of "it was a test" is completely bogus, because the outcome was perceived in your head and shared, before any person could really take the test. It's complete nonsense.