The Accusations Are True ATS - I Do Have An Agenda And I Have Been Manipulating You! My Confession.

Originally posted by MikeDeVries

He didn't say he made A POST to intentionally manipulate people, he is saying that he is been doing it all along, and how good he is at it.

Therefore, I can only respond to what he said.

There really is no catch or trick here.

edit on 21-9-2012 by MikeDeVries because: (no reason given)

I'm pretty sure the first line of his opening post reads:

I am writing these words to manipulate you. I tell you this up front and with no shame.

So everything after that point is left up to interpretation. Him admitting that he was manipulating you may or may not be true. He brings up the accusations from the past.. Which probably triggered the idea to create the thread.

I think you are the one that is having some problems reading. Sorry bud.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo


You don't seem to respond to the points I am making,

Just more empty references to the concept of manipulation.

Please tell me one thing, what did this thread teach you and how?

So everything after that point is left up to interpretation. Him admitting that he was manipulating you may or may not be true.

May or may not be true.

So how am I wrong if you don't even know if he is lying or not?

Don't act like you get the OP, because it wasn't meant to be gotten. Noone can honestly get it, cause it doesn't make sense, it changes positions, distracts, contradicts, not saying anything of substance in the process.

The fact that I reply with criticsim doesn't prove a point whatsoever.

If you think it proves that I am manipulated into responding, then every random other thread proves the same point, and this one is not remarkable at all.

The whole reasoning is moronic.

reply to post by MikeDeVries


This thread didn't necessarily teach me some new concept, but it did allow me to evaluate the idea more thoroughly. It demonstrated something I have always been interested in. Maybe this is the take I have on the thread because that's the perspective I have been influenced into adhering to. I don't know.

It makes perfect sense to me, and I feel it is extremely clever.


It's not moronic. I think you're inability to see how well it has worked is your biggest fault. The thread may have multiple purposes.. Maybe it was meant to educate or inform some, while allowing others to observe and evaluate. It could be just to prove a point. I think it does all of them quite easily.

I'm sorry you don't get it or see it the same way. I don't know what else to tell you. Some ears will always be deaf, and some minds will never have a large enough opening. You're allowed to criticize but you doing so opens the door for my criticism... Criticism that you aren't really understanding either. I've explained myself thoroughly.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

It demonstrated something I have always been interested in.

Is your lack of a real answer on purpose?

What did it demonstrate, and how did it do so?

Also, are you Heff's PR manager? You have been doing his business since last night.

I hope Heff will come back and answer my questions.

Any veteren of ATS/Conspiracy/etc. is well aware of social manipulation tek. It's not going to be so effective to most here, except the uninitiated to what really goes on behind the scenes To say that you are manipulating people is technically false because its an unfair generalization. A more accurate statement would of been I am attempting to manipulate you, which is the truth. Manipulation doesnt affect everyone. it doesnt affect those who are wise to these tactics.

you dont realize how popular NLP and other pshycological tactics are getting with the masses, people are wisening up. Generally speaking, in our capitalist society, selling influence is quite profitable - giving it mainstream exposure.

So go ahead. You can continue to pretend you are a diabolical genius who controls the masses via ATS, as you swill a champagne glass of ginger ale. You are really just manipulating yourself to be these comical evil person stereotypes.

Originally posted by MikeDeVries
reply to post by ZiggyMojo

 

It demonstrated something I have always been interested in.

Is your lack of a real answer on purpose?

What did it demonstrate, and how did it do so?

Also, are you Heff's PR manager? You have been doing his business since last night.

I hope Heff will come back and answer my questions.

edit on 21-9-2012 by MikeDeVries because: (no reason given)

I gave you an answer about 3 posts ago about how it has been demonstrated. You seriously just don't understand the concept that your response is a product of manipulation. Your whole mindset and assumption is a product of manipulation. All of it, has been created and molded based on the OP that said it was going to specifically manipulate you.. and then.. It did. Whaddya know?

Maybe your problem grasping it lies in the fact that you can't admit you have been had. That someone pulled a fast one on you and you're too deep now to go back on it. I can admit it. He had me for a few minutes.. But after I re-read it and considered the implications.. It made a lot more sense.

The point has been well demonstrated. I think it serves as a great reference for people trying to understand the intricacies of manipulation and human interaction. Some people take things at face value. Some people don't. Some people see a tree in the forest.. Some people see the forest through the trees.

Others can see both. I see where you are coming from.. I also see the rest of the picture.

reply to post by DivineEvolution


No, you obviously didn't get it.

You fell for it. You responded with criticism, so he manipulated you.

reply to post by MikeDeVries


It has nothing to do with criticism. The people who said "You didn't manipulate me" were the ones I was commenting on because they weren't understanding that he was.

Also.. Please explain how I haven't addressed all of the points you have made. Your inability to understand what I have posted does not count for me as dismissing your questions. I've done my best to respond to them. Sorry I didn't give you an answer you deemed fit.


Here is what Heff said earlier in response to one of my posts.. Take it for what it is. If he intended to manipulate you..this could also be a part of the charade. You can't pick and choose what you hold as truth in his statements. I know you'll probably say.. "Well this isn't true.." or.. "This doesn't answer the question".. When a minute ago you were assuming that all of his statements in the OP were true.

I actually wrote and posted this expecting backlash. To discuss the idea that something as simple as a billboard, or a smile, or a cute smiley face, written on the back of our dinner bill by that oh-too-cute waitress is to invite disaster because of ego. Many people cannot face the idea that manipulation is commonplace and simple because, to do so, would mean a necessary redefinition of their own sense of self. Many think themselves too strong or too smart to get played. The reality is that we all get played - and most commonly by ourselves. Mirrors can be very troubling things when the reflection we are used to seeing is suddenly altered.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

I gave you an answer about 3 posts ago about how it has been demonstrated. You seriously just don't understand the concept that your response is a product of manipulation. Your whole mindset and assumption is a product of manipulation. All of it, has been created and molded based on the OP that said it was going to specifically manipulate you.. and then.. It did. Whaddya know?

This is simply beyond moronic.

Every thread is a form of manipulation. If you think that the OP somehow proved a point in a remarkable way because of the mere fact that I responded to it, you are really quite simple.

With this reasoning, every single thread on ATS is a master manipulation move, and every reply proves the point the point that it is somehow a reaction to some sort of manipulation.

Just because he said that he was going to manipulate us, doesn't mean that any critical response is an admission of falling for it.

So basically because he said so, he can say whatever he wants after that, because any form of criticism can then be discredited with the "you fell for it", or"you proved the point".

It is a logical fallacy. But you fell for it. You are completely lost.

The only thing this thread proves is stuff that is completely obvious, well known, and not really relevant at all, and it sure is not remarkable or worthy of praise., looking from your standpoint that is.

It actually proves something else.

It has nothing to do with criticism. The people who said "You didn't manipulate me" were the ones I was commenting on because they weren't understanding that he was.

Then why are you talking to me? I'm having criticism, and you say I fell for it. Off course he manipulated me in some way. I already said a few times we are all affected by the normal generic form of "manipulation".

Heffer, now the average members Ive never seen before are manipulating me into responding.

Average members I have never seen before: Some of you may feel you are cute or cool for your moronic and caustic responses, but you simply sound foolish, bitter, and have horrific reading comprehension much less understanding of the subject.

Heffer, Now youve manipulated me into defending the thread underdog. DAMMIT!

Average members I have never seen before: I hope you get out enough to realize that if you speak to some of us like that in real life, youll pick your teeth up off of the sidewalk.


Heffer, If I get banned, its ALL your fault. Im a victim of manipulation. Oh yeah, and its not Jack we use to troll you under the influence of.. its coffee. Now we have this little Keurig type machine in the lounge that gives us those flavored single serve coffee. I like the raspberry mocha. We call you our single serve friend. On average it takes one single serve thingy to troll a thread. With mil discount we get 10% off of a box of 108 pods for 71.99 so youre actually saving the federal govt money. Thank you. We used to bring in Dr Pepper and spike it in the can with Chambord, but the giggling got on the project mgrs nerves and coffee keeps us awake when reading the responses to your threads, collating, and then posting the appropriate footnotes to each individuals file. ( easily manipulated, egotistical, hatred for authority figures, incomprehensible, etc.. ) Justa FYI. We used to have to pay for data, now we just read your threads.

Cognitive dissonance, bias, stimuli response, and how little free will we really have versus what we think we do. (I personally believe we have even less than you suggest, Heff.)

In other words, the usual. I would be saddened to learn any regular ATS members weren't already aware of these important factors, but I commend you for trying to bring it to people's attention. (Though, I disagree that everyone manipulates. I prefer to think that some unwittingly or perhaps wittingly influence, rather than seek to intentionally manipulate.)

Peace.

So you take great pride in your skills? I find it hard a psychopath would admit to being bipolar unless.....Oh yeah...the free money thing. Have you taken the psychopath test or do you already know. Why didn't you go into politics? You must have quite the following hear as these people don't even realize what you just said.

Good luck with the free money thing. That will most certainly give you more time to mess with peoples minds.

reply to post by MikeDeVries


I didn't want to stoop to your level and use a word like moronic to describe your beliefs.. But..

The idea that there is a generic manipulation is moronic.

Manipulation is manipulation. Positive and negative are subjective terms that can describe manipulation.. But it is still manipulation either way.

Heff made the thread to show how easily we are manipulated. He stated this. He also stated that he intended to manipulate us. He has.

If you think the thread is stupid and you already know what the OP is presenting then why bother posting at all? Just to stir the pot? The logic you use in your arguments is poorly applied to your own action.

Some people do not understand how manipulation plays a role in every action. I tried to explain that to people who thought they were unable to manipulated or who simply were trying to understand.

I never attacked you for criticism of Heff.. In fact. You asked me what I thought it was about and how has he demonstrated it. I explained. You didn't like the response.. Most likely because you couldn't combat someone else's unsubstantiated opinion with your own unsubstantiated opinion. So you digressed into the argument posturing as is the norm on an internet forum. Maybe I analyzed it even deeper, but sometimes the value and meaning of something isn't realized by it's creator in the fullest potential. Maybe I have found more value in what Heff posted than he originally intended. Who knows. You've started an argument with me asking for my thoughts and I gave them to you. They weren't acceptable or in line with what you thought the OP was addressing.

I don't need to expand on my opinion if you don't choose to accept it. I think I've been more than accommodating. Maybe someone else will produce an answer you'd like.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

The idea that there is a generic manipulation is moronic.

Really?

Someone posts a comment. Someone reads it and wants to react. This is the normal generic manipulation.

Someone posts something he doesn't even mean or believe in order to change the way a group of people thinks, for his own gain or agenda. This is malevolent, abnormal manipulation.

Is there no difference between the two?

It seems you think that Heff is talking about the first type. If he is, it really doesn't warrant a thread with empty rethoric and self glorification.

It is flipping obvious.

I never attacked you for criticism of Heff..

No?

Everything he said about himself could be a fallacy. It was all meant to evoke emotion and manipulate whether true or not. So no friend. I didn't fail.. I laughed after reading through the countless pages of responses like your previous one and saw how his OP had done exactly what he expected it to do. He even stated it in the OP.

You are talking about my response, and my response was one of criticism, so....

The OP is simply testing how easily manipulated you all are. He succeeded because look at all the Stars/Flags he is receiving.

OP, like you I'm a sociopath and I love to play around with people's emotions and understand the illusion of the World we live in and how everything isn't always what it seems. The only difference between me and you, is your ego.

When I say I love to play around with people's emotions, what I mean by that is I do it without them even knowing it only to understand this illusion of the World that we live in. Our egos are the result of most of our actions in life with or without knowing it. This is why many people live in denial because they cannot accept the truth. I don't take advantage of people because I acknowledge my own ego. The opposite of ego is selflessness and that's exactly what I am. I will do good where I see fit, rather than boast about my knowledge like what you're doing right now.

Don't be so proud of what you've accomplished. People are easily manipulated and all it takes is intelligence, time, logic and understanding.

reply to post by Hefficide

Some will seek to paint me as a ghetto Rasputin. Others a fool.

Well as long as you're getting SOME kind of attention, eh?

Making waves is fun... but what you've done, what I've done, what others have done here... all just drops in the sea, my friend.

Eliciting responses from people is an easy one...
Eliciting a change from ignorance to wisdom - now there's a real project worth undertaking!

reply to post by MikeDeVries


You are very good at manipulation yourself. If anyone reads the post that my comment was referring to, they would realize that I wasn't attacking you for criticizing what Heff said. I was explaining why you were wrong in the assumption that I had failed. Because I did glean some value out of the thread, and part of it was in the fact that people honestly believed they weren't manipulated by him and even made a statement saying so. I was defending my position from posturing words like "idiotic" and "epically failed". Not attacking your criticism of Heff. You asked for my opinion. I gave it to you. If you don't see it that way then you might want to re-read our whole exchange.

I'm done discussing ideas with someone unable to entertain anything beyond their own.

If anyone reads the post that my comment was referring to, they would realize that I wasn't attacking you for criticizing what Heff said. I was explaining why you were wrong in the assumption that I had failed.

No, you clearly were referring to my statements about the OP.



I qouted the follow up to this line,

He was proving a point which he did well. He has manipulated you into believing everything he posted. How do you know it is even true? You have a knee jerk reaction that he has done us all an awful deed. He stated that the post was indeed meant to manipulate you.

reply to post by ZiggyMojo

Everything he said about himself could be a fallacy. It was all meant to evoke emotion and manipulate whether true or not. So no friend. I didn't fail.. I laughed after reading through the countless pages of responses like your previous one and saw how his OP had done exactly what he expected it to do. He even stated it in the OP.

It may be in response to the "fail" remark, but what it boils down to is this, "if you dont agree with the OP in any way, you fell for it".

Which is ridiculous. It doesn't prove any point because it is a logical fallacy.

And you fell for it.

I'm pretty sure the first line of his opening post reads:

It sure does.

So who did he manipulate? The 100+ people that SandF'd it. and where all impressed by it, or the vocal few that didn't buy it, and didn't star and flag it?

You tell me.

But if the point was to incite posts from people that, "fell for it", in your eyes, then I wouldn't say the thread was very succesfull at all, so one can wonder why you flagged it, looking from your standpoint.

Care to explain?

The point is that we were BOTH manipulated. Can't you see? That's why I said it was Win-Win. He manipulated me into creating my own idea of what the thread was intended to be, and he has done the same to you. I've stated this before. I don't take part in character assassination or degradation of others unless they have done so to me. I quoted the OP's response and what he said was his intention. I've stated my opinion. I have tirelessly explained it, but you still aren't understanding it.

It's very easy to see that you are having trouble admitting that maybe he did get the best of you.

He did by the way, get the best of both of us. Our exchange was produced by his manipulation. If you can't see that I can't explain it any other way.

So I'd kindly like to leave this exchange and direct your questioning and refusal to accept anything but what you believe to be true towards the OP, or someone else who honestly cares to entertain you.

Many people have not been taught to understand mirrors and lenses. Somewhere along the way we've calcified our belief systems to the point where we are blind to new information. We use lenses of belief to see life through. Lenses are ok if you can consciously apply them. Most cannot see mirrors or understand that what comes out of themselves in terms of label or judgment is a direct mirror to the state of the programming of the individual. They know not what they do is an apt description. The concept take such an ego-beatdown at times that people no longer are willing to tame this hijacker of the creation machine. The observer, once able to regain control of the machine from the thinking mind, it opens up new avenues through which life can be experienced.

That people engage in argument and can't see the truth in the OP, is a microcosm of the state of humanity. They know not what they do.