A Western Response to Islamism

If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications: HERE, in the west, what is sacred to us is the freedom of self expression. Nothing is held higher; one's personal freedom to live a good life according to ones own standard, permitting all others to do the same.

Shari'a is an imposition to that law; it infringes on our right to express our feelings upon things.

So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act. Most of all, you have no right to threaten the lives of those who do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs.

The muslims embrace our democracies , in a way you might not expect!
The use it to silently invade our shores, start using our laws against us, and when there is enough of them
they go for sharia law.
Eventually a tipping point is reached and then your once free country has become a dark place. A place
from a thousand years ago. A place that has NO place in this modern world.

Muslims need to adapt to the 21st century, not take the 21st century back to the 10th century.

reply to post by dontreally

Originally posted by dontreally
So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act.

So when did they tell you how to "think, or feel or act" in "YOUR" country?

As far as "barbarism", NATO led by the US, just displayed plenty of it via 29,000 sorties and 9,000 bombing missions resulting in the deaths of 100,000 Libyans.

And all this to a country which never threatened anyone.

But I'm going to venture a guess and say that this state sponsored "barbarism" was lost on you.

Originally posted by dontreally
If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications:

This is the first sentence from your OP, and it is 100% bang on. Except it should include all cultures along with Muslims.

But as usual , you ruined your OP with your usual Daily Racial Slurs and Distortions.

It must be tough to be you.

reply to post by dontreally


Nicely Put.

Originally posted by dontreally
If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications: HERE, in the west, what is sacred to us is the freedom of self expression. Nothing is held higher; one's personal freedom to live a good life according to ones own standard, permitting all others to do the same.

Held in the highest is self expression? What about common sense and logic? Where does that come in?

Shari'a is an imposition to that law; it infringes on our right to express our feelings upon things.

Sharia law is not in your country so it doesn't affect anything you say or do.. What does affect you is the way you respect others, including other religions, races and their beliefs.

So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

And so you should, but it doesn't make the culprits actions right though...

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act. Most of all, you have no right to threaten the lives of those who do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs.

Its pretty hard not to pay attention to our culture when our soldiers are murdering Muslims on a daily basis in the Middle East. So obviously to you, killing 1000's of Muslims in the Middle East is justified yet when someone threatens you, its illegal or against your freedom of speech? I got news for you.. The Muslims in your country have the same rights you do and are free to mock your country and its lifestyle if they choose to.

reply to post by dontreally


I totally agree with you, only I would not have been so nice about it.

reply to post by Tw0Sides
Yes you are right it should include all cultures, but you did not write the op did you? The reason for this attitude is because it is(a part) of the Muslims that are rioting. Seeing that is so, this is the current situation in some nations that have never been Muslim. Contrary to your statement, same way as if I go to a Muslim ruled country I must and should abide by their culture laws. For example, some countries will put you to death for drug dealing. Which in my countries is not so. So if I want to do that I should take in to account the laws of that country and suffer the consequences.So in reality it is simple, check out the laws before you go somewhere on holiday or to live. Muslims need to know that there are a lot of countries that are not Muslim, never have been and more than likely never will be.Once they have got that straight they may have a better idea of how to live in a non Muslim country. then they come across the a big decision. Should I stay or should I go,once that is decided then we all must conform to the cultural habits.Now with the internet border are crossed easily and we get to read book and see videos that may not be to our liking. No one forces us to watch videos, its a choice. If you are offended by an image or words don't read them and don't look at them.Its a choice.

Originally posted by dontreally
If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications: HERE, in the west, what is sacred to us is the freedom of self expression. Nothing is held higher; one's personal freedom to live a good life according to ones own standard, permitting all others to do the same.

Shari'a is an imposition to that law; it infringes on our right to express our feelings upon things.

So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act. Most of all, you have no right to threaten the lives of those who do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs.

Well, isn't that special? They have no rights to threaten those who have messed in their countries for generations? There's more to this equation than the Islamic faiths, you know. One also reaps what they sow and what was sown is treachery, lies and the spoils of greedy endeavor.



As if going from a theocratic dictatorship to a functioning parliamentary democracy, or even an almighty republic like the USA with it's Bill of Rights, is as easy as snapping your fingers. Just takes a few months, right? Hell, no. Most are still functioning in a tribal system and now you expect them to suddenly turn that around? That doesn't make any sense at all. They're going to do, more or less, what they've always done for generations to come. If the ME becomes a 'peaceful garden of democracy' like, say, Germany, France or England, in 100 years, I'd be shocked if I was still alive.

How about all those fledgeling democracies in Eastern Europe after the CCCP got gutted? How are they doing these days? Marvellous? I don't think so.

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by dontreally
If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications: HERE, in the west, what is sacred to us is the freedom of self expression. Nothing is held higher; one's personal freedom to live a good life according to ones own standard, permitting all others to do the same.

Shari'a is an imposition to that law; it infringes on our right to express our feelings upon things.

So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act. Most of all, you have no right to threaten the lives of those who do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs.

Well, isn't that special? They have no rights to threaten those who have messed in their countries for generations? There's more to this equation than the Islamic faiths, you know. One also reaps what they sow and what was sown is treachery, lies and the spoils of greedy endeavor.

As if going from a theocratic dictatorship to a functioning parliamentary democracy, or even an almighty republic like the USA with it's Bill of Rights, is as easy as snapping your fingers. Just takes a few months, right? Hell, no. Most are still functioning in a tribal system and now you expect them to suddenly turn that around? That doesn't make any sense at all. They're going to do, more or less, what they've always done for generations to come. If the ME becomes a 'peaceful garden of democracy' like, say, Germany, France or England, in 100 years, I'd be shocked if I was still alive.

How about all those fledgeling democracies in Eastern Europe after the CCCP got gutted? How are they doing these days? Marvellous? I don't think so.

I agree with you.
Countries that are still ruled by tribal godfathers ..should not ever have modern weapons of war.
And the should NEVER EVER be allowed Nukes. Now that takes care of Israel and the rest of the ME

reply to post by rigel4


Personally, I don't think ANY country should have nuclear weapons... not even the US of A. Like I said earlier, you reap what you sow and the proliferation of nukes has been spreading for 60 years. Even if a country was unable to build one, they sure as hell can buy one somehow, stick it in the back of a Toyota pickup truck and drive it to a border for a nice big radioactive hole in the ground.

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by dontreally
If Muslims want to live in a democratic country, they must abide by democratic freedoms, must acknowledge the bill of rights in the countries in which they live to their full implications: HERE, in the west, what is sacred to us is the freedom of self expression. Nothing is held higher; one's personal freedom to live a good life according to ones own standard, permitting all others to do the same.

Held in the highest is self expression? What about common sense and logic? Where does that come in?

Shari'a is an imposition to that law; it infringes on our right to express our feelings upon things.

Sharia law is not in your country so it doesn't affect anything you say or do.. What does affect you is the way you respect others, including other religions, races and their beliefs.

So while in YOUR countries, you can practice the barbarism of killing someone for insulting Islam, in our country, we will protect someones right to do so.

And so you should, but it doesn't make the culprits actions right though...

If you can't handle it, don't pay attention to our culture. Ignore us. But DO NOT tell us how to think, or feel or act. Most of all, you have no right to threaten the lives of those who do not subscribe to Islamic beliefs.

Its pretty hard not to pay attention to our culture when our soldiers are murdering Muslims on a daily basis in the Middle East. So obviously to you, killing 1000's of Muslims in the Middle East is justified yet when someone threatens you, its illegal or against your freedom of speech? I got news for you.. The Muslims in your country have the same rights you do and are free to mock your country and its lifestyle if they choose to.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The problem is when you are not satisfied with that. When you become convinced that your opinion is best and everyone has to agree or die. When hoards of knuckle dragging thugs migrate into another country and then disrupt it because they want to impose their ways...This is what happens.

No, Sharia law has not been imposed yet...but if you let your guard down...

I'm fine with the extremists controlling their third world sewer holes. if they want to stay in the stone age...fine...but when you cross the border into the real modern world...your fantasies stay behind...or...don't cross the border. Your mental state and extremism is not welcomed.

If you don't like what people say or do across that border...too bad...tune it out and ignore it...It's not "your" world over there and you do not need to be concerned about it. You will prob stay poor and uneducated and in the stone age for the rest of your life...but that is the price for willful ignorance and intolerance...

Seems fair to me.

reply to post by Tw0Sides

This is the first sentence from your OP, and it is 100% bang on. Except it should include all cultures along with Muslims.

What are you talking about? I'm referring to the imposition of shari'a.

I have no problem with Muslims who don't abide by the Sharia. My sisters best friend Shazmin is one of those Muslims.

Problem is, Shari'a is rooted in the theologies of Ibn Hanbal, Al Ashar'i and Al Ghazali; these theologians provide the metaphysical and theological foundations for how Shari'a is adjudicated.

Therefore Shari'a always designs law to be in consonance with Allah as Pure Will; As long as Allah is seen as Pure Will, Muslims - followers of Allah - will always give precedence to power over reason. Meaning, they will always consider those people outside the sphere of Islam to be infidels and potential converts.

I'm not saying there aren't Muslims who think differently. Sayeed Hussein Nasr is one of those Islamic Shi'ite theologians who justifies the existence of a pluralistic human community as a part of Gods will. That even though there are different outward manifestations, each, or most at the very least, pursue the same one which Islam worships. I agree with this position.

I have absolutely no ill feelings here. I am thinking irrespective to how I feel. There is an extremely serious problem with mainstream Islamic interpretation of Allah and thus the Sunnah in both Sunni and Shi'ite Islam.

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The problem is when you are not satisfied with that. When you become convinced that your opinion is best and everyone has to agree or die. When hoards of knuckle dragging thugs migrate into another country and then disrupt it because they want to impose their ways...This is what happens.

What ways are they imposing? I haven't seen anything to suggest they are imposing anything in any western country. They are protesting because someone has insulted their religious figure...

No, Sharia law has not been imposed yet...but if you let your guard down

I'm fine with the extremists controlling their third world sewer holes. if they want to stay in the stone age...fine...but when you cross the border into the real modern world...your fantasies stay behind...or...don't cross the border. Your mental state and extremism is not welcomed.

So what do you call an American burning Korans? Surely that is something that we shouldn't see in the "Modern world"? Mocking ones religion the same... Do you expect them to give up their religion when they move to a modern country and not stand up for it also?

If you don't like what people say or do across that border...too bad...tune it out and ignore it...It's not "your" world over there and you do not need to be concerned about it. You will prob stay poor and uneducated and in the stone age for the rest of your life...but that is the price for willful ignorance and intolerance...

Maybe you should educate yourself.. Ignorance is exactly what you just wrote.. Border line intolerance also.. Actually disgusting to read.

reply to post by DarknStormy


Yes...I'm intolerant of ignorance....your sympathetical position would normally sicken me...

But...

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by Jeremiah65
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. The problem is when you are not satisfied with that. When you become convinced that your opinion is best and everyone has to agree or die. When hoards of knuckle dragging thugs migrate into another country and then disrupt it because they want to impose their ways...This is what happens.

What ways are they imposing? I haven't seen anything to suggest they are imposing anything in any western country. They are protesting because someone has insulted their religious figure...

No, Sharia law has not been imposed yet...but if you let your guard down

I'm fine with the extremists controlling their third world sewer holes. if they want to stay in the stone age...fine...but when you cross the border into the real modern world...your fantasies stay behind...or...don't cross the border. Your mental state and extremism is not welcomed.

So what do you call an American burning Korans? Surely that is something that we shouldn't see in the "Modern world"? Mocking ones religion the same... Do you expect them to give up their religion when they move to a modern country and not stand up for it also?

If you don't like what people say or do across that border...too bad...tune it out and ignore it...It's not "your" world over there and you do not need to be concerned about it. You will prob stay poor and uneducated and in the stone age for the rest of your life...but that is the price for willful ignorance and intolerance...

Maybe you should educate yourself.. Ignorance is exactly what you just wrote.. Border line intolerance also.. Actually disgusting to read.

"I'm fine with the extremists controlling their third world sewer holes. if they want to stay in the stone age...fine...but when you cross the border into the real modern world...your fantasies stay behind...or...don't cross the border. Your mental state and extremism is not welcomed."

How can one most likely from the US who are crossing all borders as they please to spread their democracy post this, hypocrite much

reply to post by DarknStormy

Maybe you should educate yourself

Speak for yourself.

The only Islam compatible with democracy is one that doesn't practice Shari'a.

Sunni Shari'a is rooted in the theologies of Ibn Hanbal, Al Ashari and Al Ghazali. Their conception of Allah as pure will precludes tolerance of non-Muslims.

If Allah is pure will - and not reason, as God is seen in both Judaism and Christianity, that means man cannot use reason in deciding how he should act. Shari'a is the jurisprudential process by which a Muslim learns how to act; not conscience, but exegetical investigation of the Quran and Hadith.

Thus, Muslims who practice shari'a are demanded by 1300 years of mainstream orthodox Sunni interpretation to live a certain way; there are thousands of precedents in law which Muslims follow; the basic place of a non-Muslim in Islams eyes is submission. Islam literally means 'submission'; if one doesn't voluntarily submit to God's law than Islam requires - since God is Pure Will/Power - to forcibly subjugate those non-Muslims. This is called Dhimmi.

It is a basic, rudimentary fact of Sunni Islam that non-Muslims have no rights of protection. Rights do not exist. When you think of "rights" you're thinking in a western paradigmatic context; just as we emphasize rights, Islamic society has always emphasized duty and obligation.

Yes, this should changed. But the danger of mainstream Islamic doctrine should not be ignored in the process.

reply to post by dontreally


Get a grip. Muslims are not rioting because they want to impose Shari'ah law in the United States.

And you might want to check just who is silently crossing your borders in effort to take over and change your country, up to and including its language! I promise you its not Muslims!

You are so sad. I feel sorry for you.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


The Muslim Brotherhood - the party ruling Egypt - posted on its website that the American government should pass legislation for the “criminalization of assaults on the sanctities of all heavenly religions,”

That's an imposition of shari'a law on the American constitution and bill of rights.

Understand?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

The Muslim Brotherhood - the party ruling Egypt - posted on its website that the American government should pass legislation for the “criminalization of assaults on the sanctities of all heavenly religions,”

That's an imposition of shari'a law on the American constitution and bill of rights.

Understand?

No, do you understand what a request is?

No one is imposing anything that you speak of, requests have been made which don't have to be met.