Can we please stop the pissing contest?

Military Logic:

you as supposed to be trained and disciplined enough to do what you are told...even Reservists....for the wider good.

you do not throw out the whole mission plan grasping at straws for an out. It might not get you killed, but some one else might.

you do not have to follow an unlawful order (like kill those women or kids there).

it is up to the military or civil legal authority to decide what else is lawful or not at an inquiry.....it is not the right of a soldier or civilian not subject to all the facts to decide.

in the end, a soldier choses to follow or disobey a given order, but must be held accountable regardless, and step up to the consequences of his.her actions.......they are only cowards if they fail to do so, what ever their choice has been.

Lets not go searching for more hypotheticals to prove or disprove our beliefs. The argument is becoming circular.

Cheers.

What can we say... "Military Intelligence". No wonder we are losing so many men (and women).

So we take the poorly armored supply unit and put them in the dangerous zones (instead of the opposite), with inproperly maintained vehicles, to deliver contaminated fuel, with no support.

Yeah, that makes good sense to me, you got me. If the people who are suppost to be looking out for the trops don't give a damn, what can we expect.

Sometimes in the military the worst case scenario IS the best case scenario they have. War can be a little like that sometimes.

Military Intelligence ( got two even piles of intell of this one pro and con...anyone want to flip a coin and see which we act on) wasnt even mentioned.

Military logic was as in;

The jobs gotta be done and we have to do it the best way presently available.

And since people still want to play scenarios.

The convoy team that didnt go were replaced

were their replacements pulled off what was thought a lesser assignment or rescheduled to complete it later....

what if thier absence meant that an undespatched patrol failed to engage insurgents lurking for a soft target

as a result the insurgents kill some middle aged contractors or freindly Iraqis with wives and kids or

nabs a bus full of aid workers to parade on the nightly news until execution nite.

or thier roadside bomb goes off under another convoy

these things did not (as far as we know) happen as a result of this incident. but since we are talking hypotheticals they could so easily have.

these are the possible unexpected consequences of not following orders I'm talking about.

These are the basics of military logic. You have to think several steps out from the issue at the time. Mostly you just get on with it.

If you think its strange I'm rationalising it to you, its only because you and others have asked me now and in the past and I have had the time to ponder it.

For a lot of soldiers and ex soldiers who have never taken or had the time to think about it it usually comes down to training and discipline.

The only order you question is the one you should know is immorally wrong....like getting your kicks from torture or execution.

And it applies not just in this incident but in every one every soldier encounters.

Can the critics at least acknowledge this?

And I havent called these guys cowards (or meant to). I am just saying they have to prepared to take the consequences of thier decisions, instead of crying foul if found in the wrong.

I have not read all of this thread but.....while in the Dentist office today 3 unrelated gentlemen were speaking of this.....they ALL said the troops should be shot or put in jail, plain and simple. These guys has apparently served in the military and also said, you just dont do that!!

Well it all comes down a lot to your outlook on life I guess

But a lot of people you might have noticed in life go off shooting thier mouths off, especially when thier standing amongst a group of the supportive and likeminded

Rightly or wrongly.

Try standing up and praising Israel at a Hammas Rally

I'm neither anti or pro there btw for folks just about to spit.

Let's face it - even Kofi Annan has declared the invasion of Iraq illegal
Most international lawyers and professors of jurisprudence would be in agreement
The attack on Iraq thus becomes a war crime and those commissioning it in the 'coalition of the willing' are in fact potential criminals who should be facing trial in the international criminal court in Le Hague
No service personnel has any obligation to participate in the ongoing commissioning of a criminal act, whatever their personal reasoning, especially when that crime has been compounded over and over in places like Abu Ghraib and Fallujah
The ethical obligation of service personnel in Iraq should surely be to prevent further crimes using whatever minimum force necessary, against their own commanders where required
After all, post-Nuremburg, we know that 'following orders' is no excuse

[edit on 21-10-2004 by dh]