ooops, sorry, my bad, i see its already posted i'd still like your input.thanks

Our leaders at the Pentagon and White House are to blame for this complete breakdown in authority. It was only a matter of time. Their leadership is abysmal, to say the least. I hope they're fired Nov. 2 and tried for war crimes.

I spoke to a soldier from that unit in iraq earlier today. He's come forward to give more details on the matter. Stay tuned. Much more to come...

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
Our leaders at the Pentagon and White House are to blame for this complete breakdown in authority. It was only a matter of time. Their leadership is abysmal, to say the least. I hope they're fired Nov. 2 and tried for war crimes.

I spoke to a soldier from that unit in iraq earlier today. He's come forward to give more details on the matter. Stay tuned. Much more to come...

Please let us know what he has to say. Im very interested.
It was only a matter of time.
It'll probably end up with thousands arrested ultimately.
Is there a statement in all this?
Good for them.

I will dgtempe. The bottom line is that our military and CIA is so pissed off at and betrayed by this administration that all hell gonna break loose from within.. very soon.

did these refuseniks not do any research on what the armed forces might have to do in a war?when i joined up in 79,the saying was "if you take the pay...you take the s***".in other conflicts,cowardice in the field,got you a bullet in the back of the head.

I understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, when traitors are running the show, and the show is beyond corrupt, bad shyte happens. Remember Vietnam?

True, but in the meantime who are these supply guy Reservists letting down in the line?

If I was in the heat of Iraqi desert, dehydrating and waiting for a water resup or low on ammo in a firefight......I'd want to pummel the buggers for letting me down, and maybe getting some of my mates killed.

Right or wrong politically. If you signed up for the dough, you don't let your brothers and sisters down by refusing to do the job in the field.

Its like saying "I let my mates get blown away cause I decided I didnt want to shoot anyone"

Thats the bottom line.

Ex Australian ARes. Thank God I didnt have to make the call.

"Wars will end when men refuse to fight" said some anarchist theorist or other. This is one of the best bits of news to come out of Iraq
Let them all refuse their satanically-assigned duties
Mutiny on the Desert Plain
Support the mutineers

I don't blame them and I will never call them cowards like so many internet and chat warriors called them, I can tell you if we used the "great" 'fighters and thinkers' in ATS the war and the situation in Iraq would have been accomplish a long time ago lots of people that agree with this "war" never has step in a war zone in their lives.

I have never been in a war zone but my husband has.

Those soldiers are in the front lines and they experience everyday the reality of death, now when you ask yourself for whom you are to give your life I bet a lot of them will scream "screw bush"

Something is going on in Iraq from the top command to the ground troops, and I will not say any more until some reliable links can be finds.

This news of troops refusing is just part of the bigger picture.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
I will dgtempe. The bottom line is that our military and CIA is so pissed off at and betrayed by this administration that all hell gonna break loose from within.. very soon.

AAAAAHHHHHH!!! I can't take it anymore!

ECK, where is the evidence to back up such a statement? What, one incident that no one knows the complete facts about, indicates a common hatred for Bush among the troops? Come on. As I posted in the original thread on this subject, this could very well be a case were ONE idiot commander issued bad orders, and then insisted his troopers follow them irregardless of mitigating factors. Or, it could just as easily be a case of ONE platoon suffering from an irrational group fear. The fact that the mission WAS completed by other members of the support group COULD be taken as evidence of the latter. Either way, there isn't enough information yet to be sure. And there surely isn't enough information to use this incident as an indictment of the whole administration.

I won't deny that there MAY be some in the Armed Forces that feel betrayed by the current administration. However, ALL of the polls repeatedly show that support for Bush among the troops continues to be well above the national average. So to make a blanket statement like yours is disingenuous at BEST! Further, it implies an inside knowledge of the the feelings of the personnel of the CIA and the military which, with all due respect, I don't believe you have.

-Cypher

Unfortunately, while they might be right as private citizens, but when they *volunteered* for the army, they entered a parallel government with different rules. These rules adhere to some universal guidelines about orders almost all of which concern the safety of innocents or non combatants. However, the soldier must be ready willing and able to carry out missions dangerous to them for the greater good of the entity. This is the essence of effective fighting forces, and therefore why obeying orders is taken with such importance in the military. Because they did not feel as if they could accomplish the job is reason to undertake the mission under protest. To not carry our an order based on personal feelings/preference in a volunteer army must not be allowed lets the entire system break down. The army must punish these soldiers to the fullest extent, to do any less is a great injustice to all those who died before them and would open up a chasm in discipline which would eventually destroy the armed forces.

Originally posted by dgtempe
Cant say they can be blamed, can you?

How do you view this, do you see it as lack of responsibility, or do you see it as our men trying to spare their lives?

I see it as the later.

It is simple. They signed up to get everything that comes with being in the service - that includes training, money for school, a salary, equipment, medical attention, and........

The obligation to go to war when told to by the US government.

These people are taking our tax dollars for all of the benefits, but when it comes time to live up to their end of the deal, they cry foul. Well I'm sorry, you don't get to pick and choose when you will and won't go to war.

Had they been drafted, I might feel for them, but the fact that they WILLINGLY signed up takes any chance of that away.

When you are in charge of other people's lives, sometimes you have to stand up and do what's right. They trust you, their families trust you, to bring them home. That includes not doing anything stupid that would kill them, no matter who tells you to do it. That's what being an NCO is all about. Taking care of your soldiers.

I'm just saying if these guys don't want to be there then wait till they get back GTHO and start being spokespersons for the anti war movement......

If they start failing to watch thier mates backs while theyre over there then nobody is going to bother much watching thiers.

OK?

It seems to me that the full circumstances have not yet been revealed in this matter. We are just seeing the tip of an iceberg.

Whatever happened it really all comes back to poor leadership. That leadership begins with the Commander in Chief and goes all the way down the line.

The military is an Honorable profession, PROVIDED it is used in an Honorable way for just and legitimate purposes.

You cannot order people to a useless death without some sort of accountability. As has already been said, the whole system of military command and intelligence is about to either completely break down, or they will rebel against the politicians.

I hope and believe that there are some true patriots high up in the military with a keen sense of American history and honor with the balls to sort out this mess. The root cause is political not military.

Agreed.

Another thing. To those who take it as a good sign that these men refused to do the work they signed on for (regardless if they thought no further than the paycheck when they did). It is not a sign of a coming utopian order where both sides fighters are refusing it kill each other to achieve thier "leaders" wills.

Its a few men who were maybe afraid to go out and do the common job of soldiering (not the brute ugliness of Abu Grabe) that was in the job description they signed on for.

If this were to be taken as a wider sign of the state of the armed forces (IMHO I DONT think it is) in Iraq you would be talking of a one sided rout of a volunteer army by volunteer minority Islamic extremists.

The ideal of all soldiers on both sides refusing to fight wars to further thier leaders ambitions is a good one, but a one sided collapse only leads to TOTAL domination. I would rather see a world guided by a politically and morally divided America at war, than one run by the likes of those in respresentative of AQ.

I hate abstract thoughts like this, because I really do care about the people physically effected on both sides. I just don't agree with with some of the people out there how or even if this achievable.

It is their duty to go on convoys, if ordered to do so, no matter how dangerous they are. You don't join the military expecting a bullet free life, do you?

What this shows me is a total breakdown in military bearing, discipline, and duty, a trend i was beginning to notice when i was still in.

This is another reason I opposed the Iraq war: our military simply is not ready, mentally, or had enough training. This is the fault of Clinton, as his neutering of the military and his politically correct "kinder, gemtler army" has created a disciple and structure crisis that we desperately neded to address.

Yet Bush still sent our demoralized and unready armed forces into this situation. Before we even considered taking on more problems, we should have addressed this issue!

Its only gonna get worse.

I know Im not going to be recieved well on this but If you are in the military you made an oath to follow all orders with only the exception of those you know to be illegal being afraid its to dangerous was not and is not a part of that oath , if these people get away with this deriliction of their oath then how good is there word and better yet how does it affect the morale of all the military I mean there are kids over there who cant legally drink but are scared and doing their duty despite that fear... our military seems to have assumed more and more misplaced persons who joined for that education or the ego trip of being in the military and these people are crippeling the military machine and putting others at risk by removing there extra set of eyes from the mix that may be the eyes that spot that enemy military device or personel saving lives even if they dont kill someone themselves or say look out then run for cover atleast they helped spare their fellow soldiers a fate that was one of total surprise or a result of undermanned conditions and what of the morale boost it shows that someone was affraid but did their duty anyway it makes those young kids know its okay to be scared but you can make it through if you assert yourself fear is the most beneficial tool a commander has to use to drive his troops .......now although I dont endorse it lets look at history the German and Russian militaries for example thought that fear was ok but to refuse your oath in sight of fear was not they position death squades 100 to 300 yards behind the front lines and killed those who ran from battle ....I dont think we should do that but I can see that the Germans and Russians realized the same thing I have a trooper who refuses his duty out of fear puts other scared persons who do try to do their duty at greater risk by damaging numbers in their forces by running and morale by showing fear is an excuse for placing your team mates it mortal danger


It sucks that people are intised into the military by promises of paid education or other benefits and these kids fall into this trap thinking whats the big deal I wont have to fight Ill just get a pretty uniform and a bloated chest and head full of pride and bragging rights the 4 years later go on my way noone is telling these kids they can die sure they may try to in training but they dont make believers out of these kids they just dump them off in the battle zone expecting them to do what they were trained without reguard to the human factor.....I mean look at Gen MacArthur I think it was who walked into a hospital to great his wounded brave soldiers to find one of the soldiers was a kid who had shell shock and then slapped him in the face for being in his mind a faking coward with no more reguard for his oath or respect for those who were killed and injured physically for doing their duty despite their fear.


Fear is not an excuse every is affraid to get hurt or die its a preservation reaction given by God so that we dont walk into detramental conditions unawares but nowhere did God put in us that if we knew the danger and chose to go on we would shut down or die we are just warned by our preservation skills not controlled