Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well, that's what one aspect of Exegesis is. See if the interpretation of the verse matches with other similar verses in a consistent fashion. Numerous places say every nation will see Him. That's a physical return.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

So, your answer is yes and yes..

The gospel is in1 Corinthians 15 and Jesus said no man can even come to Him unless that person is first drawn by the Father, and said He would cast out no man who called upon His Name.

Some misunderstand Paul's teachings and incorrectly think that they must choose between Jesus and Paul. You seem to not understand that Peter, Paul, and Jesus taught the same, and think that Peter is the one to ignore. I teach that they taught the same and ignore none of them.

I don't think one should ignore any of them, but believe a doctrine that doesn't cancel anything they said. The gospel is simple, Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day. All who believe and call upon His Name already have eternal life and He will never cast any of them out. And even our faith in Him is a gift of the Father when He draws us to His Son.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Do you know what the Koine Greek definition of "metanoia" is? It's used 58 times in the New Testament.

This is a fallacy that you persistently fall into, of seeing where the root words come from that went into the current word, as if it was the actual definition.
The real definition is:
`have a serious change of mind and heart about a previous point of view or course of behavior', esp. in the face of extraordinary developments, repent

Frederick William Danker. The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament

That's what exegesis is. Trying to determine exactly what idea the writer was trying to convey. Metanoia means in Koine Greek "change of mind", where one didn't believe and now are being urged to do. Or change one's mind about their old way of life or sin and now believe it was wrong or sinful.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I don't think one should ignore any of them, but believe a doctrine that doesn't cancel anything they said.

And you do that by ignoring Peter?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Well, that's what one aspect of Exegesis is. See if the interpretation of the verse matches with other similar verses in a consistent fashion.

But you are really doing something closer to seeing if your interpretations match up, rather than what the verse is really saying, but this is how you do it if you have a predetermined outcome that you just want to find "proof texts" for, which is how a cult operates, and has nothing to do with good exegesis.

Numerous places say every nation will see Him. That's a physical return.

OK, quote one that you think needs explaining, to fit my interpretation.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's what exegesis is. Trying to determine exactly what idea the writer was trying to convey.

But that is not what you are doing, you are just pretending, to make it fit your cult doctrine. You seem to be oblivious when it comes to this particular word, to the lexicon and employ your cult's gimmicky argument that appeals to how the word was first created in the dim, prehistoric past, ignoring the definition of what a definition is, which is how it is used, and the meaning, according to what the user had in mind when he said it or wrote it. You are defending a "sin all you want" mindset endemic in your rapture cult, where all you have to do is believe in a rapture, and don't worry about personal responsibility to be a good Christian in the best sense of the word, where all you think you need is to give lip service.

Metanoia means in Koine Greek "change of mind", where one didn't believe and now are being urged to do. Or change one's mind about their old way of life or sin and now believe it was wrong or sinful.

You are skipping the part where thoughts turn into actions. You can not just think something and go on as if those thoughts never existed, or just forget about them the next time opportunity to sin presents itself.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I'm not skipping anything, repentance manifests itself as a change in behavior AT MATURITY. But as said numerous times, if a person tries to change their behavior without changing their mind they will eventually revert back to behavior that's consistent with their thinking. An example would be a person who thinks it's okay to molest children, they will be sorry they were caught, they will try very very hard for several years to not molest any kids for fear of punishment, but deep inside they still see nothing wrong with molesting children they most likely will do the crime again. On the reverse side another child molester who not only feels sorry, also changes his mind about what he did, decides it's wrong/evil has a vastly greater chance to never do that crime again.

It has nothing to do with "sin all you want", (you have been corrected dozens of times), it's about bring lasting change in people's lives not temporary stops and repetitive sin cycles. I'd rather people be free and not struggle with things for long periods of time.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I don't think one should ignore any of them, but believe a doctrine that doesn't cancel anything they said.

And you do that by ignoring Peter?

I didn't say I did. Peter's statements are the same as Jesus and Paul. I don t see any conflict with the three, you have denied John 6 and 1 Corinthians 15 though, that's the problem.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Well, that's what one aspect of Exegesis is. See if the interpretation of the verse matches with other similar verses in a consistent fashion.

But you are really doing something closer to seeing if your interpretations match up, rather than what the verse is really saying, but this is how you do it if you have a predetermined outcome that you just want to find "proof texts" for, which is how a cult operates, and has nothing to do with good exegesis.

Numerous places say every nation will see Him. That's a physical return.

OK, quote one that you think needs explaining, to fit my interpretation.

You quoted two on the last page. "every nation" and "every eye" will "see" Him. That would entail a physical return, to be seen, by all, in all nations.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You quoted two on the last page. "every nation" and "every eye" will "see" Him. That would entail a physical return, to be seen, by all, in all nations.

Are you saying there are only two, where one is a sort of quote of the other?
Revelation 1:7 is one, which I just covered, and Matthew 24:30 says 'all the tribes will mourn'. Then it says 'they will see the son of man . . . ', where the "they" could be "all the tribes", but it does not necessarily always mean tribes, and depending on the context could mean peoples.
This is most likely metaphorical and it means they will see the fulfillment of what was prophesied in Daniel, and does not mean for it to be understood literally, since there is no way really for it to be understood literally.
The verse in Revelation is some sort of verse, meaning literally something written in verse, as in a song or poem, where you have all these disparate themes stacked up on each other, so the "every eye" would come from a similar source as the song in Philippians, where it says 'every knee will bend', and you see it repeated later in Revelation, where everyone faces the point where they have to accept Jesus as sovereign. So it is combining two or three themes, the son of man of Daniel receiving authority, acknowledgment by the people of that authority, and judgment of those who opposed that authority in life.
None of these have to involve some sort of spectacle in the sky which suddenly has the supernatural breaking in through into the ordinary world in some tremendous apocalyptic event. The Apocalypse is John breaking through into the supernatural from the normal world, to see what is going on behind the scenes in the invisible spiritual world. Then returning to tell us about it.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . repentance manifests itself as a change in behavior AT MATURITY . . .

This is nothing but man made philosophy and just more evidence of the cult nature of your doctrines.
I would not bother with your inane excuse for religion except how to me, you signify the devil in the midst of the temple taking his place on the throne, the man of sin manifest.
You refuse to accept the central doctrine of Christianity, which is true repentance. You try to make up ways to skirt around it and to nullify it, which points out the most dangerous tenet of this cult of rapture, aside from the non-Christian nature of this stupid end-of-the-world nonsense of the Jews and all the land grabbing in Palestine.

ETA: this might sound a little harsh, so don't take offense. It is this cult, and I realize you are just trying to earn your salvation through your cult merit point system.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Actually I equate Matthew 24 with Revelation s . In fact I thought I may have miss named the scripture as revelations 24 .
I believe that t Jesus was warning us to be very mindful of the fact that the Antichrist will try to deceive us and Jesus gave us a very specific manner in which to discern between the two . The way I think the AC will deceive many half hearten Christians is to step in during this war looming soon and save Israel from total destruction . Many will see him as the Messiah come to save Israel . I'm sure with our track records on ATS that you could see the division already . It is my contention that Ezekiel 38 is the war coming now and Ezekiel 39 tells of Christ saving Israel from a rejected AC when he commits the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel. How the Lords saving Israel will work with his coming in the clouds and returning to Jerusalem I don't know . I'm going to let him figure that out .

reply to post by SimonPeter

I don't see how any of that has to happen.
What would be the point of all of that anyway, supposing it did happen as you envision?
I think the right thing to do is to get some sanity, and don't expect any miraculous stop to a war that is supposed to to happen to fit some arcane writing that was never meant to be taken literally.
We need to be activists for peace, to not allow any wars in the first place, rather than sitting back and letting it come as if it was some kind of a show and you are the spectator. If a real war starts, you can figure you are just going to die, along with everyone else, regardless of what you might believe.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

. . . repentance manifests itself as a change in behavior AT MATURITY . . .

This is nothing but man made philosophy and just more evidence of the cult nature of your doctrines.
I would not bother with your inane excuse for religion except how to me, you signify the devil in the midst of the temple taking his place on the throne, the man of sin manifest.
You refuse to accept the central doctrine of Christianity, which is true repentance. You try to make up ways to skirt around it and to nullify it, which points out the most dangerous tenet of this cult of rapture, aside from the non-Christian nature of this stupid end-of-the-world nonsense of the Jews and all the land grabbing in Palestine.

ETA: this might sound a little harsh, so don't take offense. It is this cult, and I realize you are just trying to earn your salvation through your cult merit point system.

edit on 23-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Go back and re-read what I said. Especially where I said my goal is to get people free from sin, not in perpetual sin cycles because their mind never changed about their sin.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I was referring to the verses you quoted on the previous, from Matthew and Mark.

Jesus told a story of servants who thought there masters return was along way off, so were not really doing there masters will, had been lured into a false presumption , then their Master returned,

at a time least expected.

so for many the great falling away will come, the strong delusion, the world going after the beast, taking his mark, worshiping his image.

the Abyss will be opened, the Kings of the East will slay a third of men,

the sea will be hit by a meteorite worm wood, a fire storm, destroying a third of the sea,

there will be a massive earth quake, and the sky's will be blackened,

so all this has to pass, before my master returns, we,ve plenty of time to prepare,

Then Jesus returns at a time least expected, and one shall be taken one shall be left.

on a day just like today ?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Go back and re-read what I said. Especially where I said my goal is to get people free from sin, not in perpetual sin cycles because their mind never changed about their sin.

Maybe you should explain that, some sort of forced repentance, where other people can succeed where God fails?
Or an incremental repentance?
Or numerous attempts to self jump-start repentance?
Or people don't feel scared enough or feel sinful enough to get motivated?
How do you have the cure for that, tell them stories about Armageddon?

reply to post by dwarfflex

. . . Jesus told a story of servants who thought there masters return . . .

Right, and Matthew explains the meaning by saying the religious leaders who heard the parable got angry at Jesus because they understood that he was talking about them.
If you think the destruction of the Jerusalem temple was not a serious, earth changing, event for Judaism as it existed before that, then you are missing the point and explains why you would imagine the parable is about us, where you are a bit on the narcissistic side and can't see beyond your own personal experience.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You have got to be kidding . You haven't read it have you . You have presupposed what you think should happen .

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I didn't say I did.

If you don't ignore what Peter said to do, why do you refuse to do it?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Peter's statements are the same as Jesus and Paul.

In previous discussions, you said that what Peter said to do was salvation by works and we should follow what Paul taught instead.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I don t see any conflict with the three, you have denied John 6 and 1 Corinthians 15 though, that's the problem.

I have not denied those. You are being a false witness.