Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Either He comes to Earth or He does not. Either we deny the doctrine of immenance or we do not. So is He coming at a day and hour no man knows for His bride or not?

So is that what it boils down to with you, "doctrines"? Nothing about the Bible?
The Parousia has happened, we have the Christian Church of Jesus to show for it as the sign of his presence and his sovereignty as King.

edit on 22-9-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19

I don't know of any Christian writing that details when Christ returned bodily to Earth. What are you referring to? I can't recall any Christians claiming He returned again in he flesh.

11

said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11


They saw Him ascend physically, in His resurrected body. His second coming must be "in like manner".

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by truejew

 

NuT, Truejew, and lonewolf,

We are all brothers with the same Lord and the same Mission....

Let's end this fruitless bickering and get to more important matters....

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless

I already exited this arguement, i'm just hovering in the background reading what is said. Nothing i have to say would sway anyone who is firm in their own minds, so i see no reason to post. I'm one for solidarity but i see none to be had here. The gospel is the important thing, everything else here is just showing the unbelievers how fractured we are because they see people arguing over certain beliefs or doctrines when the central message is what is important. Everyone here is just giving the enemy more ammo. I've said it before and i'll say it again, wether or not it's a pre-trib or post-trib calling up is irrelevant as we are supposed to be ready at all times. We can sit here and argue all day over this matter and not gain any ground with the lurkers in the background reading all this, and then we have done more damage than the enemy could himself. So with that in mind i recuse myself.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

I don't? I trust Christ as my Savior and King. That He died, was buried, and rose again the third day.

Those with faith in Christ, will step into His kingdom. They will die to sin (repent), be buried with Christ (be baptized in His name), and rise to a new life (receive the Holy Spirit).

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Was I just an exception who found faith all on my own?

You don't have faith to step into His kingdom.

"37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Acts 2:37-40 KJV)

It's all right there. Will you take the step of faith and receive the promise of grace from God?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by truejew

 

Not correct. NuT's three gods/persons are not my Lord.

Salvation is an important matter.

Well, I for one am happy to see you on the forum, at least engaged in a dialog, which I think is important.

Even though we disagree on much, you do challenge my mind at times.

reply to post by truejew


Here is the gospel, you seem confused:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4


Most importantly, Christ's own words:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And..

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And...

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:37, 6:44, 6:47

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I don't? I trust Christ as my Savior and King. That He died, was buried, and rose again the third day. The Bible says even faith is not of ourselves, but is a gift of God. Was I just an exception who found faith all on my own? Christ said He will "in no wise" cast out anyone who calls upon His Name. Was He wrong? Will He cast out people who call upon His Name? Should Romans 10:9-10 and 1 Corinthians chapter 15 be removed from the Bible as forgeries, or should they have several asterisks and footnotes?

It may be that in actuality, you have "faith" in your own faith as being the vehicle of your salvation, making it a new Pharisaical "work" that you can do to gain salvation.
Jesus told the parable of those who will come to him in the "Last Day" (judgment) and a man who had faith in his achievements in his name who was told, 'get away from me' because he still had sin in his life that he imagined God would overlook in light of his good works.
What Paul meant by not being "cast out" was that you would not be rejected for just not being a Jew.

reply to post by jmdewey60


No my faith, trust, is in what the word of God says. God said it, I trust it, pretty simple.

See Christ's words above. No man can come to Him in the first place unless the Father draw him. And any man who comes to Him He will never cast out.

P.S. Jesus said that, not Paul.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

. . . as well as the time He "comes" in Isaiah 63 to destroy the nations against Him and His garments will be blood stained.

Just reading the chapter, and without consulting a commentary or anything, I would say the warrior in blood drenched garments is harking back to the Angel of the Lord in Joshua. It goes on to ask 'why don't you act like that now, how you acted in the old legends?'.
Prophetic interpretation is not reciprocal, meaning you can use Isaiah's "trampling out the grapes" to understand the reference in Revelation, but you can't use Revelation to go back to Isaiah to interpret what had been previously written long before Revelation.

But only ONE "2nd coming" to Earth mirroring His first coming, and He will remain and rule and reign.

What would come the closest to that, that I can think of is in Revelation, and if you were to go with that, and give it a literal interpretation (which you claim to go by), it would be a coming to a "new" earth, so Jesus is not just going to show up on this earth and continue on with where he left off, as if nothing had ever happened in between.

reply to post by jmdewey60

What bible are you reading ?I am reading the KJV . Matthew 24 verse 31The way I read it is "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds , from one end of heaven to the other ".
Matthew 24 verse 26 thru 28 says the Christ will not sneak around . He will come suddenly but for the world to see Revelation 1 verse 7.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Here is the gospel, you seem confused:

Peter preached the Gospel in Acts 2. When finished he was asked, "what shall we do?". Peter told them the step of faith to take. Will you take the step of faith?

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

Here is the gospel, you seem confused:

Peter preached the Gospel in Acts 2. When finished he was asked, "what shall we do?". Peter told them the step of faith to take. Will you take the step of faith?

So you're saying Peter was teaching a different gospel than Jesus and Paul? Sorry, I don't buy that. Does John 6:47 need an asterisk and footnote?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I don't know of any Christian writing that details when Christ returned bodily to Earth. What are you referring to? I can't recall any Christians claiming He returned again in he flesh.

Acts 1:11 said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

They saw Him ascend physically, in His resurrected body. His second coming must be "in like manner".

Parousia does not to have to be the actual presence but could be satisfied by the sign of his presence and the idea is to have the symbol of that person'authority.
See my explanation for Acts 1:11 from an earlier post, www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by truejew


Do you know what the Koine Greek definition of "metanoia" is? It's used 58 times in the New Testament.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Well if it's not His physical presence then it would not be an "in like manner" return, considering He ascended in His physical resurrected body. The angel clearly said "in like manner". Not to mention Revelation says every eye will see Him.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

So you're saying Peter was teaching a different gospel than Jesus and Paul?

No. I am saying you don't have faith if you refuse to take the step of faith into His kingdom.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Does John 6:47 need an asterisk and footnote?

One who believes in Christ, will follow His words and the words of His apostles. Will you follow the words of Peter in Acts 2:38, therefore believing in Christ and taking the step of faith to enter into His kingdom?

reply to post by truejew


So, your answer is yes and yes..

The gospel is in1 Corinthians 15 and Jesus said no man can even come to Him unless that person is first drawn by the Father, and said He would cast out no man who called upon His Name.

reply to post by SimonPeter

What bible are you reading ?I am reading the KJV . Matthew 24 verse 31The way I read it is "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds , from one end of heaven to the other ".
Matthew 24 verse 26 thru 28 says the Christ will not sneak around . He will come suddenly but for the world to see Revelation 1 verse 7.

I'm reading the verses you cited:

"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
Matthew 24:29

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Looks like I did not go far enough on, and then was reading the corresponding section in Mark,

Then everyone will see the Son of Man arriving in the clouds with great power and glory. Then he will send angels and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

that does not mention trumpets, so was an additional touch by Matthew, if you follow that theory, of Matthew redacting Mark.

Matthew 24 verse 26 thru 28 says the Christ will not sneak around . He will come suddenly but for the world to see Revelation 1 verse 7.

I don't think that was the idea that he was trying to convey in those verses. He was warning about not looking for false "christs". The lightning from horizon to horizon could just mean that his invisible presence covers the earth, being in every place, simultaneously.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by truejew

 

So, your answer is yes and yes..

The gospel is in1 Corinthians 15 and Jesus said no man can even come to Him unless that person is first drawn by the Father, and said He would cast out no man who called upon His Name.

Some misunderstand Paul's teachings and incorrectly think that they must choose between Jesus and Paul. You seem to not understand that Peter, Paul, and Jesus taught the same, and think that Peter is the one to ignore. I teach that they taught the same and ignore none of them.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Do you know what the Koine Greek definition of "metanoia" is? It's used 58 times in the New Testament.

This is a fallacy that you persistently fall into, of seeing where the root words come from that went into the current word, as if it was the actual definition.
The real definition is:
`have a serious change of mind and heart about a previous point of view or course of behavior', esp. in the face of extraordinary developments, repent

Frederick William Danker. The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Well if it's not His physical presence then it would not be an "in like manner" return, considering He ascended in His physical resurrected body. The angel clearly said "in like manner".

You apparently are not reading the post I linked to where I explain that.
It does not say 'in like manner return', but it does say "in like manner", where the 'return' is an interpretation.
If you would have read my linked-to post, you would see how I interpret the verses in Acts 1, where the meaning is different if you translate it literally, rather than how most Bibles translate it by leaving out a lot of the words as if they were just redundant. If you consider all of them, it is telling a story of how Jesus is not just going up in a cloud, but is going all the way to the highest heaven, where God lives.
What you are doing is taking interpretations in one place and using them to further interpret verses in another place, as if your interpretations were as good as irrefutable truth and any real scripture.

Not to mention Revelation says every eye will see Him.

John is reciting a bit of a hymn, or poetry, where it is alluding to places in the Old Testament, and some Christian traditions you see coming up in the Gospels, so you take it as having the metaphorical meaning applying, where it means spiritual discernment.