Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

There was no such thing as a Christian or the Church yet when Christ was speaking in Matthew 24.

Just because they were not called Christians yet does not mean they were not Christians.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And by 2nd advent, it means second coming to Earth.

Your 2nd advent of Christ is really a third coming. My 2nd advent of Christ is a second coming.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

The nation of Israel and Jerusalem are not yet redeemed to Christ, and we certainly are not in a period of time of everlasting righteousness, so no.

The Church is Israel, the only chosen people of God.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

So as you can see Messiah was cut off (crucified) in the 62th week. The 70th week cannot have been when his ministry began.

In addition to my previous post to you...

Your counting is off. Daniel says there is 7 weeks, then 62 weeks. That is a total of 69 weeks. Messieh is cut off after the 62 week period (after 69 weeks), meaning within the 70th week.

reply to post by SimonPeter


A hint in the Old Testament of the Rapture?

Zephaniah 2:1-3
1Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together o nation not desired; 2Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierece anger of the Lord come upon you, 3Seek ye the Lord , all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought His judgement; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

One cannot attribute these passages to the jewish people because they are not anywhere in the Bible described as a nation not desired. On the contrary, they are described as the apple of God's eye, His wife, His chosen people, etc.

I believe the Church will be Raptured before the Wrath of God begins. In my opinion the interpretation of when that begins during the seven years is open. Some passges seem to suggest the first three and one years as the wrath of the Lamb and the last three and one half years as the wrath of God.

The Bible plainly states that we (believers) are not meant for the wrath of God:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

1Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

One cannot be on the earth and not suffer when God's wrath is poured out on the earth and all humans who are on earth. So, if not a pre-trib Rapture, then what?

Originally posted by 1PLA1
reply to post by SimonPeter

 

One cannot be on the earth and not suffer when God's wrath is poured out on the earth and all humans who are on earth.

God can protect His people during the wrath. His power is not limited by your limits.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Is it finished or not?

"24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24-25 KJV)

"30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30-31 KJV)

"Upon thy people and the Holy city".

The nation of Israel and Jerusalem are not yet redeemed to Christ, and we certainly are not in a period of time of everlasting righteousness, so no. Hosea 5:15 triggers His return, they must confess their offense, (singular and specific/rejection of Him as the Moshiyach Nagid), and in their affliction (the time of Jacob's trouble) they will seek Him earnestly. That's the point of the great tribulation. And Christ's "it is finished" quote was talking about His atonement for sin, not the redemption of "thy people and the Holy city". If He was referring to that He failed, Jews aren't Christians yet, Jerusalem is still in denial of their Messiah and King.

edit on 20-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Don't forget Hosea 5:15 is also tied to Zechariah 12:10

Zechariah 12:10-14

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

So as you can see Messiah was cut off (crucified) in the 62th week. The 70th week cannot have been when his ministry began.

In addition to my previous post to you...

Your counting is off. Daniel says there is 7 weeks, then 62 weeks. That is a total of 69 weeks. Messieh is cut off after the 62 week period (after 69 weeks), meaning within the 70th week.

Even if i was off he was still cut off in the 69th week, his ministry still could not have begun in the 70th week. I was thinking the 7 weeks came after the 62, but again, his ministry could not have begun in the 70th week he had already been crucified. Unless ofcourse you're reckoning him as being the Holy Spirit himself, then his ministry would have been going on for the last 2000 years but that doesn't fit the eschatological timeline.

reply to post by truejew


True, God can protect whom He chooses. I do not limit my Creator. I put my trust in His Word and His words.

Jewish people who have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior are not a part of His Church. Thus, the statement that jews are the church is untrue.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

So as you can see Messiah was cut off (crucified) in the 62th week. The 70th week cannot have been when his ministry began.

In addition to my previous post to you...

Your counting is off. Daniel says there is 7 weeks, then 62 weeks. That is a total of 69 weeks. Messieh is cut off after the 62 week period (after 69 weeks), meaning within the 70th week.

Even if i was off he was still cut off in the 69th week, his ministry still could not have begun in the 70th week. I was thinking the 7 weeks came after the 62, but again, his ministry could not have begun in the 70th week he had already been crucified. Unless ofcourse you're reckoning him as being the Holy Spirit himself, then his ministry would have been going on for the last 2000 years but that doesn't fit the eschatological timeline.

Messieh was cut off after the 69th week, not during the 69th week. After the 69th week is during the 70th week. There is no break in the 70 weeks.

Originally posted by 1PLA1
reply to post by truejew

 

True, God can protect whom He chooses. I do not limit my Creator. I put my trust in His Word and His words.

Jewish people who have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior are not a part of His Church. Thus, the statement that jews are the church is untrue.

I did not say all who claim to be Jews are the Church, but I did say the Church is Jewish.

Originally posted by 1PLA1
reply to post by truejew

 

True, God can protect whom He chooses. I do not limit my Creator. I put my trust in His Word and His words.

Jewish people who have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior are not a part of His Church. Thus, the statement that jews are the church is untrue.

Theyre in apostacy, and in their blindness they think we are idolaters. Some of them will be redeemed, about 15000 have so far, but most have not.

i can see both sides of this debate , what sticks out for me is,

Jesus speaks of a master returning to his house at a time least expected

A tribulation unlike the world has ever seen or will ever see again, the sun and mood darkened,

God shortens these days , unless no flesh would survive.

so had we endured by the grace of God to this time, we would be looking up, knowing our redemption, the return of Jesus was at hand

I come at a time least expected, a day just like today ?

Jesus also mentions two in a bed two in a field, two in a mill, that one would be taken , the other one left. ?

this may suggest people are going about their daily business, as with the days of Noah,

Noah and his family where post trib, and then the flood came, they were in the Ark, God supernaturally shuts the door, then it starts to rain.

Jesus is the Ark of the new covenant,

Though being in Christ is spiritual to.

but also suggested a great time in the end times of persecution, The beast and who can wage war with him, given authority to over come the saints.

then we also see shared about those killed for the word of God, their testimony,

hunted down and killed for not taking the mark of the beast.

Then Jesus warning us, work while you have the light time opportunity, prepare, as darkness comes when no man can work.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And Christ's "it is finished" quote was talking about His atonement for sin, not the redemption of "thy people and the Holy city".

Where do you find the word "redemption" that you insert into your philosophy which negates the redemptive power of Christ?

reply to post by 1PLA1


I believe also that to be true . With that said the question of the Rapture / Harvest should be either Pre Wrath or Post Wrath in my estimation . And that question is answered in Revelations chapter 7 verse 9 . . I actually see no question at all .

reply to post by truejew


We do know that the 144000 will be marked in their foreheads with Gods mark before the wrath is turned loose on the earth . But in Revelations 7 verse 9 you will find the redeemed . The rest on the earth will be those suffering the wrath . The 144,000 are 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel , Virgin Jewish Men specifically .
God could have us on earth during the wrath as well . But the bible says we are before the throne at that time .

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There was no such thing as a Christian or the Church yet when Christ was speaking in Matthew 24.

So how does that make any difference?

The church was "born" at Pentecost, the new covenant in His blood was instituted at the last supper, and believers were first called Christians at Antioch, Syria.

Those two statements of yours seem to contradict each other. If a covenant was instituted, then the "birth" of the church would have already happened, where the thing it is compared to was the sprinkling of the blood on the twelve stones at the foot of Mt. Sinai, where the Church (congregation) under Moses was already assembled to enter the covenant, having been born out of the Red Sea.

And by 2nd advent, it means second coming to Earth.

As a philosophy, maybe, as a teaching of the Bible, no.

To walk, talk, be seen by all, just as He was when He incarnated as a man. In the rapture verses He comes, never sets foot on the Earth, gathers His bride and returns to heaven for the marriage supper and the Judgment Seat of Christ.

More philosophy created independent of the Bible.

At the rapture only His own will see and hear Him.

Something never described in the Bible.

At His second advent He comes with His bride in glory, sets foot on Earth, everyone will see Him sinner and saint alike, and He comes to establish the Davidic Covenant. The two are completely different.

More fabrications that are not taught in the Bible.

In the letters to the 7 churches the overcomer is promised to be spared/removed from the great tribulation.

It does not say the great tribulation, but a testing, where they had already shown the ability to resist temptation.
What you have is a big pile of cult philosophy with no actual Biblical teaching at all, and actually works against the principles that it does teach.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by abeverage

 

Since most "Christians" have done nothing to stop wars, famine and general grief of the rest of humanity. They have also taken horrible care of their "Fathers" house with little or no regard for the eventual return. Doing things like supporting the strip mining whole sale rape and reaping of the earth, it’s resources and life!

Jesus never tasked us with stopping wars, that is not what he made us for. What is it with all you people who think this responsibility falls on us?

What did my brothers and sisters do in the face of Nero's wrath? They did not fight back, they stood their ground in their faith and they died martyrs deaths and they loved not their lives even to death, being burned to death on a stake as his "Roman candles", thrown to gladiators and lions in the Coliseum and arenas. What does taking a life accomplish? Nothing but blood on your own hands, and then you become the very thing you hated the most.

Fine lets throw out war! How about famine? How about the environment? Did he not ask to feed the poor? Didn't Jesus say to be watchful stewards of his house?

Mathew:Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household...

Guess the Christians didn't mind that they let thieves in through the front door watched as stole the masters treasures, lent a hand to trash the place and as the thieves depart were given a handshake, a thanks for stopping in "god bless" and a smile!

Christians who deny what has been wrought upon this earth are hypocrites! Those who believe they have played no part in being thieves or bad stewards are liars! No I am sorry but there have been wolves among the sheep so much so that flocks have forgotten by whom they were led.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools! They are the bad servant they say to their god...

I'll do whatever I want while my master is away not to worry I have plenty of time to put things right before the master comes.

The night is coming and believing only that saving their brothers was the only good work have not understood and will suffer the same fate as the rest. I am not saying they would be denied heaven but there will be a price to be paid for not being good stewards of his house and not heeding those words.

Foolish to believe you will be whisked away while others suffer the same suffering they have allowed for so long and done nothing to prevent! No rapture until they face the master of the house and admit they were misled and did wrong...

reply to post by abeverage


You seem to have alot of angst against christians. You pass alot of blame around, do you accept your own blame? Take that plank out of your own eye before attending to the speck of sawdust in someone elses eye. You need to stop looking around and start looking up. That sword you're swinging isn't yours to swing. We're doing everything we can to feed the poor and clothe the needy, but we are not their providers, God is their provider. Bring them to him and he will provide for them.

John 6:27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

The night is coming and believing only that saving their brothers was the only good work have not understood and will suffer the same fate as the rest. I am not saying they would be denied heaven but there will be a price to be paid for not being good stewards of his house and not heeding those words

John 6:28-29

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

We don't need to save our brothers and sisters, Yeshua will take care of that. The truth is there would be no war and no famine and a host of many other things if all would come to Messiah, but all are not willing to come to him that they may have life, how does that blame fall on us? We cannot convert by the sword, one must come willingly or it will not be binding.

Foolish to believe you will be whisked away while others suffer the same suffering they have allowed for so long and done nothing to prevent! No rapture until they face the master of the house and admit they were misled and did wrong

What is written is written, their suffering is inflicted upon themselves in their own arrogance, being wise in their own ways they seek not the ways of Yeshua. Our task was to spread the message, and make disciples and proclaim the kingdom to come. A servan'ts place is one of humbleness and humility, not sitting in the Master's chair pretending to be King, going about to conquer the world.

reply to post by SimonPeter


Are they the Church or are they those martyred during the tribulation?

Whoever they are they definitly went through the great tribulation.

Originally posted by 1PLA1
reply to post by SimonPeter

 

Are they the Church or are they those martyred during the tribulation?

Whoever they are they definitly went through the great tribulation.

The people who will be martyred will belong to the medievel church who twisted the scripture to their own ends, fornicating with civil powers for gold wealth and worldly power, and those who did not come to Yeshua before the calling up takes place, but come later. There are 4 resurrections, the first resurrection took place when Yeshua rose from the grave, in which those who believed the Savior would come were raised up that same day with him (the firstfruits) and this is recorded as people in Jerusalem saw the dead walking around and conversing with those who were alive and their relatives. The second resurrection comes in the harpazo (rapture), the 3rd at the Second Coming of Messiah, the 4th resurrection comes at the end of the millenial reign and that one is the Final Judgement in which the wicked will also be raised up and then given their final judgement and sent into sheol and then into Gehenna for eternity with their names wiped from the Book of Life and God will remember them no more, it will be like they never existed to him.