Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

John Darby and Ms. MacDonald popularized the teaching, they didn't invent it.

Darby made it into a doctrine, then built an entire theology around it, then actively promoted it with big money backing, most likely rich Zionists who saw the theories as supporting their planned future take-over of Jerusalem.

I don't really deal in arbitrary conjectures, like I said, they popularized the teaching. Most of Christiandom before that time clung to the Augustine/Catholic dogma concerning the end times.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I'd check Daniel 9 again.

The traditional Christian view of Daniel 9 is to see the "prince" in the vision as the Messiah, otherwise known to his followers as Jesus.

The events of the 70th week have not happened.

You are effectively denying that the Daniel prophecy was about Jesus, and are giving it to the antichrist beast.

John writes about that coming week in Revelation, penned in 95 AD.

The traditional Christian view is that the writer of Revelation was the John who was one of Jesus' twelve disciples, where your dating, to make it written after the fall of Jerusalem, and in the time of Domitian, negates that and throws it open to speculation who wrote it and if it is authoritative, being then an anonymous writing (according to your heretical theory).

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He was transported to the Day of the Lord and told to write everything he saw, heard, and felt.

This must be one of those great theories you picked up from a YouTube video, since every commentary on Revelation that I am aware of sees it as John saying he had his candlestick and the glorified Christ vision while he was going about his living on Patmos, on the Lord's day, usually thought of as the Christian gathering day, Sunday.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Okay, lets try some contextual theology. The first rule of Biblical hermeneutics is to always account for historical and cultural context. Rule #1.

That would be step #4, after things like seeing the context within the text itself, and seeing what the literal meanings of the words within it are.

Who was Christ addressing in Matthew 24? Jews or Christians?

OK, you brought this up, so how is that relevant?

And is that verse talking about the rapture or the 2nd advent of Christ. Is Christ coming to Earth in that passage or just the heavens, and will all people see the event or just His own?

You say below that there was no concept of a rapture, so you narrow down the possible meanings of this verse right there. I would say there probably was an idea of a rapture in Jesus' day, the unknown thing would have been the concept of a rapture independent of a hypothetical "end of the world" scenario.
What you are calling an "advent" would be the Parousia, which can be interpreted broadly, to mean not a physical presence, but the symbol of his presence, and also of his authority, as used within the Roman Empire to describe the authority of the Emperor.
There is no prediction of Christ coming to earth, except where some people take the line from Zechariah as literal and talking about Jesus. I would take it as metaphorical and talking about the blessings that came from Jesus actual historical presence on the Mount of Olives.

. . . The mystery of the rapture wasn't even revealed yet at the time Christ was speaking in Matthew 24.

So who was it that "solved" this mystery?

reply to post by truejew

He will be on His way to Earth when His own will see Him and be caught up to meet Him in the air. Then the Church will turn around and come the rest of the way back with Christ.

I think you just added that last part on yourself.
I think the scene where the rapture is described is talking about Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord, or the Last Day.
At that point, the earth is rather irrelevant since the next scene would be in heaven with God, and those not invited would be at that time better left forgotten. This would have been the popular Hellenistic Jewish concept at the time and what would have been the general base which Revelation is built on.
Paul sees the whole thing in a rather fuzzy way, where to him, the important thing is that there is a heaven where Christ is and where we will be also at some future point. Revelation sharpens the focus but in a way that is more symbolic that literal, to take in the entire expectation of apocalyptic thought that had been incorporated into the "end times" mythos.

reply to post by truejew

"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30 KJV)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" does not take place before the tribulation of those days.

All this can be written off as a sort of description of the change from one eon to another, and as Matthew's expansion of the Markan parallel verses which describe the creation of the new congregation of God, otherwise known as, the church of Jesus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, the church/Ekklesia. At the rapture only His own will see Him. At he 2nd Advent He comes WITH His bride, the entire world will see Him return in glory.

The "bride" bit is probably an interpretation of Jesus' parables in Matthew of the coming bridegroom, which is not about the bride so much as how the Jews rejected him while they were supposedly looking for someone to be coming.
Paul is saying that everyone will see him, which could be understood by the concept (that he repeatedly brings up) that everyone will will face judgment, and at this day of judgment, Jesus arrives and it could be a shocker to a lot of people who had earlier rejected him.

There are two chapters that tells us that the Antichrist will have his time before the Rapture occurs , these are Matthew 24 and 2nd Thessolonians chapter 2 . Daniel 12 also tells us the same thing also . Jesus was talking to the Jew and Gentile in Matthew 24 . To try to determine otherwize is to try to appease the flesh . That being said there is the contingent of people who fear going through the Tribulation and rightfully so . We will all die the first death .

reply to post by truejew

Minor problem here. You left off verses 27 and 28.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The tribulation being talked about here is the tribulation of the days of the carcass. Not the great tribulation. This is a separate event.

Also consider the description of the 6th seal of Revelation.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Where did all the people come from? They have to be the raptured. Also these people were not present at the start of the prophesy. Revelation 4-6 describes a sea of glass surrounding the throne of God and where the seal are being opened. If there was a multitude of people there at the time why are they not mentioned?

I would have to say the rapture is part of the events of the 6th seal of Revelation.

personally..

the church will go out the same way it came in ..

blood, sweat and tears (of joy & sorrow)

reply to post by dwarfflex
Times are hard and harder they get harder is to know what will be.

To decipher all that happens there must be a time, but time is short as the events are amplified.It is hard to separate them and say who is and who or what is next.

reply to post by ntech

Minor problem here. You left off verses 27 and 28.
. . . . . . . . . .

The tribulation being talked about here is the tribulation of the days of the carcass. Not the great tribulation. This is a separate event.

Also consider the description of the 6th seal of Revelation.
. . . . . . . . . .

Where did all the people come from? They have to be the raptured. Also these people were not present at the start of the prophesy. Revelation 4-6 describes a sea of glass surrounding the throne of God and where the seal are being opened. If there was a multitude of people there at the time why are they not mentioned?

I would have to say the rapture is part of the events of the 6th seal of Revelation.

You are skipping something, too. Like the verse that explains where the people come from, in 6:11,

Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been.

"Rapture" would be applicable if you thought of it in the sense of what happens, at some point, after you die.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

2. No, in Matthew 24 Christ is addressing Jews, that's the "cultural context" of that chapter.

Jesus was addressing Christian Jews. Therefore He was addressing both.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

3. The 2nd advent and the rapture are not the same thing. During the rapture He comes in the air and takes His bride for the marriage supper. At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, the church/Ekklesia. At the rapture only His own will see Him. At he 2nd Advent He comes WITH His bride, the entire world will see Him return in glory.

They are the same. Jesus comes twice, not three times.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by dwarfflex
Whats your thoughts on the rapture , before during or after the great tribulation ?

Before. And even before Daniel's 70th week begins. You do realize the period of time labeled "great tribulation" is just the last 3 1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week. In John's vision of the Day of the Lord the church is present in heaven when Christ is handed the 7 sealed scroll and begins to loose it's seals starting Daniel's 70th week.

Daniel's 70th week has already happened. It began with the start of the ministry of Jesus.

The last week of Daniel will take place in the near present future. 1 day = 1 year, the tribulation is God's wrath being poured out all over the earth. Case in point when he punished Israel:

Numbers 14:34-35

34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. 35 I the Lord have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.’”

Ezekiel 4:1-6

“You also, son of man, take a clay tablet and lay it before you, and portray on it a city, Jerusalem. 2 Lay siege against it, build a siege wall against it, and heap up a mound against it; set camps against it also, and place battering rams against it all around. 3 Moreover take for yourself an iron plate, and set it as an iron wall between you and the city. Set your face against it, and it shall be besieged, and you shall lay siege against it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel.

4 “Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.

These are where 1 day = 1 year for punishment for iniquity. Messiah was cut off

Daniel 9:25-26

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined


So as you can see Messiah was cut off (crucified) in the 62th week. The 70th week cannot have been when his ministry began.

reply to post by abeverage

Since most "Christians" have done nothing to stop wars, famine and general grief of the rest of humanity. They have also taken horrible care of their "Fathers" house with little or no regard for the eventual return. Doing things like supporting the strip mining whole sale rape and reaping of the earth, it’s resources and life!

Jesus never tasked us with stopping wars, that is not what he made us for. What is it with all you people who think this responsibility falls on us?

What did my brothers and sisters do in the face of Nero's wrath? They did not fight back, they stood their ground in their faith and they died martyrs deaths and they loved not their lives even to death, being burned to death on a stake as his "Roman candles", thrown to gladiators and lions in the Coliseum and arenas. What does taking a life accomplish? Nothing but blood on your own hands, and then you become the very thing you hated the most.

Jesus did not come on this earth to talk to the Jews. The fact is that Jesus was offered first to the Jew and then the Gentile . Had Jesus been exclusively for the Jews the Gentile would have had the same access to Jesus as they do to the Law . None ! The Jew had utter contempt for the Gentile and would not have shared their Messiah with the same . I find that God blinded the Jews partly to Jesus as the Messiah for this reason .
The coming of Jesus will come as a thief in the night for those not watching for his coming .When Jesus appears the time for decisions is over and you are going to be caught by surprise thus coming like a thief . Still Jesus tells us that he will come in full view of those that pierce him like the and like the sun rising in the East . Jesus is not a sneak thief and why should he be .This is his Kingdom he is ruling.
No where in the bible does it elude to the Harvest (no rapture ) being before the Great Tribulation appearance of Christ in the clouds as told in Matthew 24 verses 30 &31 .
Still exist those who must believe that they some how deserve to be removed from the sufferings of the Great tribulation . I wonder if they have to face suffering through the Tribulations to come will they still be faithful . Some will have their lives required of them for the sake of Christ ,others may endure until the end .
The parable of the Ten Virgins tells us that the foolish virgins were betting on an early arrival of the Bride Groom . The point of the story is that you must endure until the END . Rev 24 verse 13 . These are the words of Jesus to us . Do you actually believe Jesus ? I do!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Is it finished or not?

"24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24-25 KJV)

"30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30-31 KJV)

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

2. No, in Matthew 24 Christ is addressing Jews, that's the "cultural context" of that chapter.

Jesus was addressing Christian Jews. Therefore He was addressing both.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

3. The 2nd advent and the rapture are not the same thing. During the rapture He comes in the air and takes His bride for the marriage supper. At the rapture He comes FOR His bride, the church/Ekklesia. At the rapture only His own will see Him. At he 2nd Advent He comes WITH His bride, the entire world will see Him return in glory.

They are the same. Jesus comes twice, not three times.

There was no such thing as a Christian or the Church yet when Christ was speaking in Matthew 24. The church was "born" at Pentecost, the new covenant in His blood was instituted at the last supper, and believers were first called Christians at Antioch, Syria. And by 2nd advent, it means second coming to Earth. To walk, talk, be seen by all, just as He was when He incarnated as a man. In the rapture verses He comes, never sets foot on the Earth, gathers His bride and returns to heaven for the marriage supper and the Judgment Seat of Christ. At the rapture only His own will see and hear Him. At His second advent He comes with His bride in glory, sets foot on Earth, everyone will see Him sinner and saint alike, and He comes to establish the Davidic Covenant. The two are completely different.

In the letters to the 7 churches the overcomer is promised to be spared/removed from the great tribulation.

Originally posted by truejew
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Is it finished or not?

"24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." (Daniel 9:24-25 KJV)

"30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (John 19:30-31 KJV)

"Upon thy people and the Holy city".

The nation of Israel and Jerusalem are not yet redeemed to Christ, and we certainly are not in a period of time of everlasting righteousness, so no. Hosea 5:15 triggers His return, they must confess their offense, (singular and specific/rejection of Him as the Moshiyach Nagid), and in their affliction (the time of Jacob's trouble) they will seek Him earnestly. That's the point of the great tribulation. And Christ's "it is finished" quote was talking about His atonement for sin, not the redemption of "thy people and the Holy city". If He was referring to that He failed, Jews aren't Christians yet, Jerusalem is still in denial of their Messiah and King.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Where exactly does it say that the believer or anyone else will be delivered from the Great Tribulation .
The verse you refer to in Rev.4 does not say anything more that John was taken up through a door and heard a trump . This was a view into what was going to happen .
The words of Jesus in Matthew 24 can not be attributed as being only to the Jew . Neither can 2nd Thess. chapter 2 where the Thessalonians are being corrected about when Christ would be coming for believers . People who cling to the Pretribbulation Rapture should examine why they must believe such . Is their Faith strong enough to resist Satan during the Tribulation . Why do they believe and can that faith be shaken ?
These are hard questions that we all must ask our selves no matter when we will go and not meant as an attack on anyone because we can not know for sure when that time will be . Remember the 5 foolish virgins who were by their own decisions not prepared to endure until the Bride Groom came for them .