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Obama "I Actually Believe In Redistribution"

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posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by Flow101

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by Flow101
So the republicans trying to make an issue out of nothing, seriously taxes ARE redistribution in some ways. If the republicans think this will help them they are crazy, and either way most people don't know and/or don't care about "redistribution".

It's sad to see how desperate they are right now, Romney is even trying to win the latino vote, interesting to see he now seeks the vote of people he NEVER cared for, does he really thinks that the latino are stupid?


Obama knows that admitted - socialists - do - NOT - get elected in America.

The solution is to masquerade as a moderate.

Keep believing that nonsense, Romney likes redistribution to himself, what do you call buying a company, taking it to bankruptcy to transfer the assets to himself? Of course he won't call it redistribution, he'll call it business.

This is a complete non issue.
edit on 20-9-2012 by Flow101 because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-9-2012 by Flow101 because: (no reason given)


Ask anyone in politics if self declared - socialists - ever get elected.

There is a very good reason why Maxine Waters keeps quiet 99% of the time.

Socialists lose.

-----------
Occasionally, they do come out to say hello.

Socialist actor Edward Asner came on the The Factor with Bill O' Reilly a few months ago.

" I am a socialist ."


They're here.
edit on 20-9-2012 by Eurisko2012 because: (no reason given)

Now I know why you speak such nonsense, you watch Fox News. Here's an advice, stop watching it, and/or stop believing all those lies they tell you.




posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by Flow101
 


Socialists lose. Ask any democrat!

Ask Indigo5 if socialists win elections. See what he says.

Ask David Axelrod if self declared socialists win elections.

-----------
It's over. --- Obama is half way to Hawaii right now !!! ---



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by BenReclused
Nonsense!

Capitalism is based on the buying and selling of goods and services. Until "Obamacare" was passed, no one in this country was ever FORCED to buy one of those goods or services.

That's an economics fact!


See this is how people are confused. Capitalism is not the buying and selling of goods or services. It is the private ownership of the means of production. Buying and selling can happen outside of capitalism.

The problem we have is not buying and selling, it is the fact that the means to produce products for the market, or just simply for our needs, are in the hands of the few and they use that to exploit labour, making extreme wealth for themselves at the expense of the many.


See this is how people are confused. Capitalism is not the buying and selling of goods or services.

See, that is how people like you "twist" what others say. I did not say: Capitalism IS the buying and selling of goods or services.

I said:

Capitalism is based on the buying and selling of goods and services.

Now, back to my ORIGINAL COMMENT:
1) Are you really trying to argue that Capitalism IS NOT BASED on the buying and selling of goods and services?

2) Though I know you misrepresented my comment, did you merely misinterpret it?

3) Were you attempting a "straw man argument"?

I strongly suspect number "3" is the true answer!

See ya,
Milt
edit on 20-9-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by Flow101
 


interesting to see he now seeks the vote of people he NEVER cared for, does he really thinks that the latino are stupid?

What makes you feel that Mr. Obama cares more about Latinos, than he does their vote? I don't feel that he does.

See ya,
Milt



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by staver
 


Another example of how Fox whores itself to the Republican party

That's interesting! Do you have any comments about the way Mr. Obama "whores" himself out to the media?

See ya,
Milt



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Flow101
 


Now I know why you speak such nonsense, you watch Fox News. Here's an advice, stop watching it, and/or stop believing all those lies they tell you.

They don't lie near as much as Mr. Obama does! Why do you keep listening to him? My advice: Vote for someone else!

See ya,
Milt



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by BenReclused
See, that is how people like you "twist" what others say. I did not say: Capitalism IS the buying and selling of goods or services.

I said: Capitalism is based on the buying and selling of goods and services.


Hmmm same difference. I still disagree, capitalism is based on private ownership, and exploitation of labour, not buying and selling. Without owning capital, and exploiting labour, capitalists would not have anything to buy and sell, they would no longer be capitalists (even if they have things to sell).

If you do not make your money from ownership of capital, and the hiring of labour, you are not a capitalist. Buying and selling is not capitalism.


1) Are you really trying to argue that Capitalism IS NOT BASED on the buying and selling of goods and services?


Yes, it is based on the exploitation of labour. Without exploitation of labour capitalists would not have products to buy and sell.


2) Though I know you misrepresented my comment, did you merely misinterpret it?


Nope.


3) Were you attempting a "straw man argument"?


Nope


I strongly suspect number "3" is the true answer!


Of course you do, that way you don't have to bother defending your position.


edit on 9/20/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 07:11 PM
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Originally posted by Tw0Sides
reply to post by neo96
 


My friend, Both Parties believe in Redistribution.

The only Difference is in which Direction.

GOP = Money heads North, Rich get Richer
Dems = Money heads South, Poor receive aid


Dems don't help the poor, they make the poor dependent of government...

Obama himself claimed that the private property of company owners is not really theirs... somebody else helped them... As in, the garbage person, and everyone else who has worked in such building/company, even though they didn't pay ONE PENNY to build that company are also owners of that company... That is called socialism...

BTW, despite the lies from the NEW socialists, under socialism the state OWNS EVERYTHING, and claims to do so "for the people"...



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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reply to post by BenReclused
 


Don't listen to ANOK, he is a new socialist who spins, exagerates, and even lies to get people to like his branch of socialism... Exactly what ALL socialists do...



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Don't listen to ANOK, he is a new socialist who spins, exagerates, and even lies to get people to like his branch of socialism... Exactly what ALL socialists do...


BS. I do not spin, or exaggerate anything. I offer links and lot's of info that if you bothered to check you would find are correct.

Lie? I have been a member here for 8 years, I am not about to risk my account by lying, T&C states you are not allowed to post known lies. Just because you are confused and fail to understand history doesn't mean I'm lying.

You simply spread MSM nonsense, you are confused. You have not once proven anything I've said to be wrong.

I also think it's against T&C to spread lies about other members, please mind your own business. I wish they still had the ignore button.


edit on 9/20/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


BTW if you support Bens definition of capitalism then you have to admit that Russia, China, Cuba etc., were never communist, because they all had markets that bought and sold things?

Sorry but your definitions are not logical.

Capitalism is not the market, it is who owns the means to produce for the market. Markets, money, buying and selling have been going on for as long as known history, capitalism is only 250 years old. Capitalism replaced feudalism in the 1700's when the land laws changed. The commoners were denied use of the land and lost their autonomy, and were forced to move into towns looking for work. Land owners took advantage of this and started exploiting the commoners to make themselves wealthy. Workers organised and decided they would be better off if they owned the factories themselves, they called it socialism. It wasn't until years later that governments appropriated those terms in order to maintain their power.

Socialism was a threat to government, so government reacted to protect itself, by appropriating left-wing terms and changing their meaning to hide the truth.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Tw0Sides
reply to post by neo96
 


My friend, Both Parties believe in Redistribution.

The only Difference is in which Direction.

GOP = Money heads North, Rich get Richer
Dems = Money heads South, Poor receive aid



aid is like putting a bandage on a gunshot wound though.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:11 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by BenReclused
See, that is how people like you "twist" what others say. I did not say: Capitalism IS the buying and selling of goods or services.

I said: Capitalism is based on the buying and selling of goods and services.


Hmmm same difference. I still disagree, capitalism is based on private ownership, and exploitation of labour, not buying and selling. Without owning capital, and exploiting labour, capitalists would not have anything to buy and sell, they would no longer be capitalists (even if they have things to sell).

If you do not make your money from ownership of capital, and the hiring of labour, you are not a capitalist. Buying and selling is not capitalism.




1) Are you really trying to argue that Capitalism IS NOT BASED on the buying and selling of goods and services?


Yes, it is based on the exploitation of labour. Without exploitation of labour capitalists would not have products to buy and sell.


2) Though I know you misrepresented my comment, did you merely misinterpret it?


Nope.


3) Were you attempting a "straw man argument"?


Nope


I strongly suspect number "3" is the true answer!


Of course you do, that way you don't have to bother defending your position.


edit on 9/20/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)


Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.[2] There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have been applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[3] There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by angrysniper
Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.[2] There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have been applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[3] There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.


The main definition of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, no matter what form it takes, and who is the owner. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership.

Welfare capitalism? What is that?

State-capitalism is another term for nationalism, private ownership by a government. The USSR's economy was called state-capitalism outside of the MSM.

Whatever form capitalism takes it exploits labour.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 

Capitalism is not the market, it is who owns the means to produce for the market. Markets, money, buying and selling have been going on for as long as known history, capitalism is only 250 years old. Capitalism replaced feudalism in the 1700's when the land laws changed. The commoners were denied use of the land and lost their autonomy, and were forced to move into towns looking for work. Land owners took advantage of this and started exploiting the commoners to make themselves wealthy. Workers organised and decided they would be better off if they owned the factories themselves, they called it socialism. It wasn't until years later that governments appropriated those terms in order to maintain their power.

Socialism was a threat to government, so government reacted to protect itself, by appropriating left-wing terms and changing their meaning to hide the truth.


Wait what? Your interpretation of history is painful to read.


Capitalism replaced feudalism in the 1700's when the land laws changed. The commoners were denied use of the land and lost their autonomy


Lets just take a piece of wiki...


The classic François-Louis Ganshof version of feudalism[2][3] describes a set of reciprocal legal and military obligations among the warrior nobility, revolving around the three key concepts of lords, vassals and fiefs. A lord was in broad terms a noble who held land, a vassal was a person who was granted possession of the land by the lord, and the land was known as a fief. In exchange for the use of the fief and the protection of the lord, the vassal would provide some sort of service to the lord. There were many varieties of feudal land tenure, consisting of military and non-military service. The obligations and corresponding rights between lord and vassal concerning the fief form the basis of the feudal relationship.[2]


en.wikipedia.org...

The people didn't lose their rights to land, they didn't have it in the first place. Heck, going through history, the people didn't own land - you can go as far back as Mesopotamian society (in which farmers rented land)



Workers organised and decided they would be better off if they owned the factories themselves, they called it socialism. It wasn't until years later that governments appropriated those terms in order to maintain their power.


When did this happen, where? Going to need some clarification on that one.



Land owners took advantage of this and started exploiting the commoners to make themselves wealthy.


As long as people are still on this earth, there will be those who will take advantage of others. Simple human nature....not pretty but it is part of who we are.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


Welfare Capitalism is what Ford was doing. High wages, benefits, vacation, incentivized wage increases, 40 hour work week, overtime pay are hallmarks of welfare capitalism.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:40 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by angrysniper
Capitalism is an economic system that is based on private ownership of the means of production and the creation of goods or services for profit.[1] Other elements central to capitalism include competitive markets, wage labor and capital accumulation.[2] There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have been applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[3] There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.


The main definition of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, no matter what form it takes, and who is the owner. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership.

Welfare capitalism? What is that?

State-capitalism is another term for nationalism, private ownership by a government. The USSR's economy was called state-capitalism outside of the MSM.

Whatever form capitalism takes it exploits labour.


You like using the word exploit, are you sure you using it properly?

People work for a company, that company pays you for your time and skill. Simple and easy and if you don't like the terms, don't work for them anymore. Now I will say that corporations have gotten their hands into government, thereby making laws that benefit those corporations....but that isn't capitalism, you are looking at cronyism.



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightTide
The people didn't lose their rights to land, they didn't have it in the first place. Heck, going through history, the people didn't own land - you can go as far back as Mesopotamian society (in which farmers rented land)


The commoners by law in Britain were allowed to live on unused land, they didn't own it. Yes they had to pay the land owner, but the land owners could not deny the use of unused land by the commoners. The Inclosure laws changed that.


The act of transferring resources from the commons to purely private ownership is known as enclosure, or (especially in formal use, and in place names) Inclosure. The Inclosure Acts were a series of private Acts of Parliament, mainly from about 1750 to 1850, which enclosed large areas of common, especially the arable and haymeadow land and the better pasture land.


www.citizendia.org...


The Inclosure Acts encouraged many English country-dwellers to move to urban areas where they might typically become employed in wage labour jobs, thus becoming, in the terms of Marxist economics, the proletariat. In Marxist interpretation, the Inclosure Acts can be seen as a process of bringing land and people into the sphere of capitalist social relations through political force; in Marxist terminology this process is an example of primitive accumulation of capital.


www.citizendia.org...

This is why people moved into cities and became the working class, the proletariat.


When did this happen, where? Going to need some clarification on that one.


The idea of socialism was formed in the early 1800's by the working class, it was turned into a movement by people like Robert Ownen and Proudhon. Left-wing terms were appropriated by governments in the 1900's in order to control social unrest, as most working class were apposed to capitalism that put them in factories working long dangerous hours.


As long as people are still on this earth, there will be those who will take advantage of others. Simple human nature....not pretty but it is part of who we are.


This is true, but the private ownership of the means of production is not necessary.


edit on 9/20/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 

Your "straw man" is so far out in left field it's pathetic. You are arguing semantics, and completely ignoring my original point. As obvious as it should have been, you seem to have entirely missed it. I will now take you by the hand and guide you through it.

This is the post you originally responded to:

Originally posted by BenReclused
reply to post by pirhanna
 


Capitalism is the most diabolical redistributive system of wealth ever devised.
It takes from the workers and gives to the ruling class.

That's a mathematical fact.

Nonsense!

Capitalism is based on the buying and selling of goods and services. Until "Obamacare" was passed, no one in this country was ever FORCED to buy one of those goods or services.

That's an economics fact!

See ya,
Milt

"pirhanna" claimed that "Capitalism is the most diabolical redistributive system of wealth ever devised."

My point was that Capitalism wasn't a "diabolical redistributive system" because no one was forced to buy or sell anything until "Obamacare" was passed.

I didn't use an all encompassing definition of Capitalism because it wasn't needed. The bottom line of Capitalism IS "the buying and selling of goods and services". Without a market, there would be no Capitalism.

If you want to argue my point, fine, go for it. If you want to argue the semantics of Capitalism, I'm really not interested.

See ya,
Milt
edit on 20-9-2012 by BenReclused because: Typo



posted on Sep, 20 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


I do not spin, or exaggerate anything.

Oh, yes you do!

1:

capitalism is based on private ownership, and exploitation of labour

Thats an exaggeration. "Exploitation" is NOT within the definition of Capitalism. Nor is anyone in the United States forced to work for a Capitalist.

2:

BTW if you support Bens definition of capitalism

Thats a "spin". I never gave a definition of capitalism. I only addressed one major aspect of it.

3:

Capitalism replaced feudalism in the 1700's when the land laws changed. The commoners were denied use of the land and lost their autonomy, and were forced to move into towns looking for work. Land owners took advantage of this and started exploiting the commoners to make themselves wealthy. Workers organised and decided they would be better off if they owned the factories themselves, they called it socialism. It wasn't until years later that governments appropriated those terms in order to maintain their power.

That's misleading. It doesn't apply to the United States. In case you missed it, that's the country that this thread applies to. Many "commoners" were actually given land here.

4:

The main definition of capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, no matter what form it takes, and who is the owner.

Nonsense! Without the creation of goods or services for profit, there is no definition for capitalism.

See ya,
Milt



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