China is flexing its muscles: time to worry , page 2

reply to post by waveydavey

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Yeah, good point. The age of isolationism and self sufficient nations seems to be over. Too bad really, any type of regional catastrophe now has an enhanced ripple effect globally.

For example, I live in NY's capital district. Despite having a good amount of productive farmland and solid water resources, we'd all starve in the event of compromised central authorities.

reply to post by Hefficide

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The Chimerica label beyond an economic relation that already exists has no meaning, world views are to divergent to permit a political and military collaboration. The label Chimerica was created to illustrate the sick relation of interdependency of these two antagonistic forces. One has to say that if the relation did not exist, we would most probably have seen some more aggressive stances in relation to other events from both sides, if not open war.

reply to post by Panic2k11

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I would counter that with the observation that, over the past 30 years, China has moved towards an American model, regarding some freedoms and business practices - and, meanwhile, the US has steadily been moving more into the realm of a police state.

I see it as a slow process where the rules of each country will come to something of a meeting in the middle. The different forms of governance will end up more rhetorical and superficial than they were in the past or are today.

~Heff

reply to post by ollncasino

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What a ridiculous and petty world we live in where a dispute over an Island or Riots over a Film cause Mayhem!!

I think the Big Boys need to start acting like Men instead of Crying like babies!!

reply to post by waveydavey

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WD...the Minerals that you speak of are available in other regions of the World. The reason we buy them from China is that they are CHEAP! Afghanistan is estimated to have over 20 to 30 TRILLION DOLLARS worth of exotic minerals LOCKED into that country's Mountains.

Canada as well as the U.S. Rocky Mountains are LOADED with the same...however...there would be definite environmental Court Battles. But rest assured...these minerals can be gathered from a variety of sources including domestic ones.

CHINA...on the other hand...has GREAT NEED of U.S. COAL. The United States contains the Worlds Largest Coal Reserves and since China has a majority of their energy production facilities constructed as COAL BURNING ELECTRICAL GENERATORS...if the U.S. should stop Coal Shipments...China would need to convert these coal burning plants to Oil Burning Plants which would put them at the Mercy of the U.S. Navy.

NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING...is allowed to be shipped without U.S. Navy approval. This approval is a self installed U.S. Naval Code and should a shipment of a Material...say a North Korean Ship loaded with Missiles and Nuclear Weapons Grade Fuel...be headed toward Iran....the U.S. Navy would SEIZE that ship! The U.S. Navy is not only Massive in numbers of ships and subs but it is the U.S. Nuclear Carrier Groups that are capable of setting up station in an area and we have just the right number to cover the Globe.

It is fortunate for CHINA that the U.S. is not a nation Hell Bent on Conquest as I doubt very much that if the roles were reversed that China would not take advantage and if they had our Military Capabilities...would have already...Invaded Taiwan, Japan, Australia, New Guinea, The Philippines, Guam...etc..

But the REALITY is that China is in no position to dictate terms to the United States. It is in China's BEST INTEREST not to PISS US OFF! To do so would be Catastrophic to China and China's Economy. Let's say that China SEIZED a Japanese Island that they are currently disputing ownership...as Oil was found in the sea floor around this Island. THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

The U.S. Military is responsible for the DEFENSE OF ALL OF JAPAN BY TREATY. The U.S. would demand China to leave or be driven out. Lets say China refuses to leave and starts sending Troop Carrier Ships to the Island. The U.S. Navy and Air Force target all Chinese Ships, Subs and Landing Party Troops. China gets it's ASS KICKED! China attempts to sink a U.S. Nuclear Carrier with it's NEW CARRIER KILLER MISSILE. A U.S. AEGIS CLASS CRUISER launches an SM-3 ABM and EASILY SHOOTS THIS CHINESE MISSILE DOWN. As a response...U.S. Stealth Bombers and the U.S. Navy attack and DESTROY all Chinese Ships and Subs near the area as well as Stealth Bombers Destroy Chinese Air Bases and Naval Yards. The U.S. as a WAR REPARATION refused to pay back Chinese Loans as well as refuse all Chinese Goods bound for the U.S. The U.S. Navy also...for a MONTH or TWO...TURNS BACK any and all OIL SHIPMENTS bound for China.

At this point...China has only two options left...either attempt a Nuclear Strike upon a U.S. Target...which China already KNOWS that any Chinese ICBM can be EASILY SHOT DOWN with an SM-3 ABM or perhaps with the several operational Nuclear Powered FEL's known to exist or have it's ICBM shot down by an USAF F-15 loaded with a Long Range ABM launched in flight. OR...CHINA COULD STAND DOWN. Since China Knows a Nuclear War with the United States is SUICIDE...China would most likely call it a Day.

Since all these scenarios are already known by both countries...China will Bitch and Moan and send a Bunch of Ships...that will sail home and do NOTHING! China KNOWS to attack JAPAN is like ATTACKING THE UNITED STATES...we are bound by treaty to defend JAPAN. China invading a Japanese Island would require a response.
Split Infinity

Originally posted by munkey66
reply to post by ollncasino

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I will try and find a link, but I believe that the islands in question where actually owned by China in the 14th century [

The Senkakus were part of the Ryuku kingdom. The Chinese claim that because the Ryuku kingdom paid tribute to China in antiquity, the Ryuku islands (Okinawa) were historically part of China, and should today be part of China.

That's the claim that *should* be making people nervous - because that's the real face of Chinese expansionism. Everyone in East Asia knows it, everyone in the west seems to be ignoring it. Every single one of China's territorial disputes is based on this same logic - the kingdom that once ruled the territory in question once paid tribute to a Chinese ruler to establish diplomatic relations or trade, thus the land has always and will always belong to China.

That's the basis of China's claim.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by waveydavey

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It is fortunate for CHINA that the U.S. is not a nation Hell Bent on Conquest

Ermm OK! If you think so!
Conquest doesn't necessarily have to be via military action

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING...is allowed to be shipped without U.S. Navy approval. This approval is a self installed U.S. Naval Code and should a shipment of a Material...say a North Korean Ship loaded with Missiles and Nuclear Weapons Grade Fuel...be headed toward Iran....the U.S. Navy would SEIZE that ship!

Sources please!
I don't believe for one minute that the US navy can stop any ship anywhere at any time just because it feels like it. They would have to have justification for this, WMD's, fissile material etc etc
They could not, for example, stop a container ship from entering or leaving port (any port) just to be bad-ass.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The U.S. would demand China to leave or be driven out. Lets say China refuses to leave and starts sending Troop Carrier Ships to the Island. The U.S. Navy and Air Force target all Chinese Ships, Subs and Landing Party Troops. China gets it's ASS KICKED! China attempts to sink a U.S. Nuclear Carrier with it's NEW CARRIER KILLER MISSILE. A U.S. AEGIS CLASS CRUISER launches an SM-3 ABM and EASILY SHOOTS THIS CHINESE MISSILE DOWN. As a response...U.S. Stealth Bombers and the U.S. Navy attack and DESTROY all Chinese Ships and Subs near the area as well as Stealth Bombers Destroy Chinese Air Bases and Naval Yards. The U.S. as a WAR REPARATION refused to pay back Chinese Loans as well as refuse all Chinese Goods bound for the U.S. The U.S. Navy also...for a MONTH or TWO...TURNS BACK any and all OIL SHIPMENTS bound for China. At this point...China has only two options left...either attempt a Nuclear Strike upon a U.S. Target...which China already KNOWS that any Chinese ICBM can be EASILY SHOT DOWN with an SM-3 ABM or perhaps with the several operational Nuclear Powered FEL's known to exist or have it's ICBM shot down by an USAF F-15 loaded with a Long Range ABM launched in flight. OR...CHINA COULD STAND DOWN. Since China Knows a Nuclear War with the United States is SUICIDE...China would most likely call it a Day.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The reason we buy them from China is that they are CHEAP! Afghanistan is estimated to have over 20 to 30 TRILLION DOLLARS worth of exotic minerals LOCKED into that country's Mountains.

Not only is it cheap, the USA would rather that someone else (China) pulled down mountains to get this stuff out, now when China pulls back on its exports because of its own environmental concerns (they aren't as backwards as you think they are, they are improving on all points fast) the USA gets all arsey and says that China is cutting them off. Not true. So which is it to be for the US? Buy from China or not buy from China? It seems like a selective viewpoint that is ever changing. Mine your own damn stuff if you need it that bad!

Just to re-cap my earlier point, if the USA was to ever say right no more Chinese imports, turn away all ships. (which would not happen) It would have more of a financial impact on the USA than China, they have been paid for the goods you have just turned away! I can see it now, the look on Apple's face when they hear that their containers have been turned back
It would bankrupt them very quickly!

As for the disputed Islands, again it's about oil. And when you read the mutual defense treaty you will see the section that could refer to that oil (whether legally Japanese or not) effectively belongs to the USA should it need it, oh and tax free as well!

So we come full circle back to the first quote in my post and ask..........REALLY?

reply to post by waveydavey

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WD....I was not saying the U.S. Navy would or practices Stopping and Seizing or Forced Inspections of Container Ships just because they can. What I AM SAYING is that U.S. Carrier Groups Practice doing this on actual ships to a certain point before they turn away...and that the U.S. Navy WOULD SEIZE a Ship if our Satellites Detected Nuclear Radiation and our Satellites can determine through the use of Super Computers...any Radiation Source as well as Gamma Rays, X-Rays, Neutron Emissions and a through Computer Probability Calculations determine whether a substantial amount of Uranium or Plutonium as well as what specific ISOTOPES OF is aboard a Ship or Aircraft.

I was also trying to explain that the U.S. Navy and ONLY the U.S. Navy has the capabilities of halting any and all Shipments on and under all the Oceans of the World. No other Country has this ability. It is this capability as well as the Geographic Location of the Mainland United States as well as Having a State in the Middle of the Pacific Ocean and Having a Country that is Canada...which is basically the 51st State that makes a LAND INVASION OF THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OF IT'S TERRITORIES...IMPOSSIBLE!

When the United States Defeated JAPAN during WWII...this was an EFFORT OF EXTREME EFFORT AND VIOLENCE. The Japanese were ready to Fight to the Last Man, Woman and Child. The Pacific Island Hopping Campaign of the U.S. Navy and Marines was WARFARE ON A LEVEL SO VIOLENT that it made the Russian Invasion of Berlin look like a WALK IN THE PARK! Germans would surrender when they knew they had no choice...the Japanese would NOT SURRENDER as my Uncle who was in the Philippines BATAAN DEATH MARCH....AND SURVIVED. Continued....S.I.

reply to post by SplitInfinity

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Continued...
The Bataan Death March was a 70-mile forced march of American and Filipino prisoners of war by Japanese forces during World War II.

Approximately 72,000 American and Filipino soldiers were forced to surrender to Japan's Imperial Army after their defeat in the grinding, three-month-long Battle of Bataan (January 7 - April 9, 1942). The Allied soldiers had not been resupplied for a couple of months, and many were sick and malnourished.

Despite the poor condition of the prisoners, the Japanese command calculated that it would take them only 3 days to march 70 miles through the jungle. Local officers took this order to heart, driving the wounded, ill, and emaciated prisoners relentless through the tropical heat.

The prisoners also were routinely denied food and water.

Anyone who fell behind, complained, had a souvenir taken from a fallen Japanese soldier, or even looked at one of the Japanese wrong was bayoneted or shot. Some prisoners were shot for stopping to fill their canteens at a road-side ditch.

Rifle-butt beatings were common, for offenses such as helping a faltering comrade. Many prisoners were bayoneted for no apparent reason, or for fun. Filipino civilians along the path who offered food or water to the prisoners were also summarily killed by the Japanese.

In total, some 18,000 - 20,000 of the POWs died on the Bataan Death March, which ended up taking one week. Some simply collapsed and died of illness or starvation, but most were murdered. A large but unknown number of the POWs died shortly thereafter in the internment camps as well, from the after-effects of their forced march.

In 1945, the Japanese commander in charge of Bataan, General Homma, was put on trial for atrocities including the Bataan Death March. He stated that he had been unaware of the high death toll from the march until some time later. Nonetheless, he was convicted. General Homma was executed in the Philippines on April 3, 1946.

THIS was the kind of enemy we were fighting and my Uncle who has now passed on...and although I am not supposed to disclose exactly what I do to anyone...I made an exception for him on his Death Bed and told a a Man who had been disconnected from the machines keeping him alive...answers to Several Questions most on this board would love to know. He died with a SMILE on his face 5 Minutes Later. THIS is why the U.S. Navy and Military in General has such VAST CAPACITIES...so that a Man such as my Uncle...will never have to go through something like that again.

China does not even comprehend what FLEXING MILITARY MUSCLE REALLY CONSTITUTES as far as what the U.S. Military is CAPABLE OF DOING IN A SITUATION OF ALL OUT WAR! The U.S. Military has not been at a state of ALL OUT WARFARE since 1945...and NO ONE has seen it since. The U.S. Military Invaded TWO COUNTRIES and it was more like a Realistic War Game that a TRUE WAR.

People should PRAY that the U.S. Military NEVER AGAIN GOES INTO A STATE OF ALL OUT WAR! There are a few things that could TRIGGER THIS! A Middle Eastern Country Explodes a Dirty Bomb in Israel or Near U.S. Troop Concentrations, An Old Style Heavy Truck Sized Atom Bomb of say 3 to 7 Kiloton Yield explodes in Europe or in Bahrain...Home of the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet and part of CENTCOM. OR...and this last scenario is HIGHLY UNLIKELY given current U.S. Satellite Radioactive Material Detection...a old Style Nuclear A-Bomb explodes in a shipping container at a U.S. Port...or a Dirty Bomb explodes in a Major U.S. City.

In the event of ANY OF THESE NUCLEAR SCENARIOS OCCURRING...the United States would have to make an EXAMPLE OUT OF THOSE WHO SUPPORTED THE ACTIONS OF A FEW TERRORISTS as an 18 year Old Kid who goes to MIT can build a THERMONUCLEAR BOMB NEVER MIND A 1945 STYLE FISSION BOMB! SEVERAL TARGETS WOULD BE CHOSEN AND THE WEAPONS OF CHOICE WOULD BE EITHER THE FEL....MEB....LOW YIELD NEUTRON WARHEADS...OR THE COMPLETE AND TOTAL INVASION AND ANNEXATION OF THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST AS WELL AS IRAN AND PAKISTAN.

This could also include the Invasion and Annexation of Yemen, Somalia, Syria, Israel, Palestine...etc. Russia and China would not interfere as it is the same as how the U.S. would not interfere should Chechnya detonate a Dirty Bomb or Old Style Fission Bomb in Russia or Moscow....the U.S. would allow Russia to AVENGE IT'S DEAD....and this would not be a proper place or time for the U.S. to get involved...just as Neither Russia or China would get involved in a U.S. ACT OF VENGEANCE. Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by waveydavey

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I was also trying to explain that the U.S. Navy and ONLY the U.S. Navy has the capabilities of halting any and all Shipments on and under all the Oceans of the World. No other Country has this ability.

Incorrect, when a ship is involved in certain criminal acts, such as piracy, any nation can exercise jurisdiction under the doctrine of universal jurisdiction.
Source

If the US navy entered the territorial waters of any nation, this in it's self is an act of aggression if not war. So no the US navy cannot cruise around the world and do what it pleases, it is bound by international convention like every other nation.
This discussion is kind of De-railing the thread though.

The US navy is mighty there is no denying that fact, it can respond and have presence anywhere on the planet with in hours, as you are clearly a citizen of the USA you should rightly be proud of your armed forces.
Unfortunately the armed forces of many western nations are being used by their respective governments as attack dogs. Not with their nations interests at heart but that of corporate and political.

Everybody slates China for taking jobs etc from the West. Remember though, if it wasn't for the consumer this would never have happened. It's the consumer that drives the economy and we all want the latest gadget or gizmo at affordable prices. The wage structure in the West stifles competitiveness in the manufacturing sector, both domestic and export trade. The only way a nation can build wealth is through infrastructure, engineering and manufacturing. We are left to become the innovators of the world, designers, thinkers, problem solvers. If we could only think our way out of this one!!
The only solutions has to be, massive investment in infrastructure, engineering and manufacturing by the government. We can then get better at everything, more efficient, more competitive bring manufacture home. US made products for a US and international market place (swap US for UK or anywhere else that struggles).

If we where to move all manufacturing from China and back to our home countries over night, I'm sorry to say this but it would destroy OUR economies faster than that of China. We are simply not ready yet, not in a position to compete with China. The Chinese government, love em or hate em have got manufacturing right where our own 'Western' governments have failed beyond measure. The encourage growth and actively support investment. Not only in their own domestic industry but in that of foreigners who want to set up shop in China. The deal? You need to bring something to China, new skills, techniques, innovation etc. Our governments don't do this for their people.
Our governments choose to support banks to the tune of trillions of dollars globally, paid for by you and me! That doesn't create jobs, infrastructure or security. It simply increases our reliance on imported products.
This choice to support the banks that have shafted every man woman and child for 100 years has again shafted our nations, massive unemployment, homes being repossessed, record numbers of families on benefits and handouts. It's a complete disgrace! Yet all WE do is continue to believe the lies that they feed us in the hope that the next new candidate will do things differently, the don't, they won't and never have! Instead of looking inside the rotting apple we look outside to countries like China or the middle East and blame them instead.
We should all be ashamed, we have all turned our backs on our countries by letting these things happen. They will continue to happen indefinitely unless we take back our lands from the profit driven parasites that we continually elect to run the show.

We have been sold out to banks and corporations by our leaders and most of us don't even realize.

reply to post by waveydavey

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Have you ever wondered why the U.S. does not enforce obvious trade Violations and inequities with China? It is because of an overall PLAN. The U.S. Planners decided that the best and easiest way to prevent another Expensive COLD WAR...this time with CHINA....was to Change China from the inside out. The Main Goal was to help develop an Educated Middle Class of Chinese People who would at some point no longer want to be treated as Children by the Corrupt Chinese Communist Party.

This entailed importing Chinese Products of which many are U.S. Companies using Chinese Manpower to cheaply assemble Goods. China imports large amounts of Coal, Scrap Metal, Entertainment, Software and other items from the U.S. still trade is not level. The U.S. also borrowed Billions of Dollars from China but again...these loans are UNSECURED. In a VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME...this growing, educated, Computer Savvy Chinese Middle Class will DEMAND FREEDOMS as well as ACCOUNTABILITY from a Corrupt Communist Party that is Steeling the Countries Wealth for themselves. In effect...THEY WILL BECOME US! This plan started as early as NIXON and is still continuing.

By any real definition...China has ALREADY BECOME A CAPITALIST NATION! The One Time Plans of the Chinese Building a NAVY to rival the U.S. Navy have come and gone. So has the Communist Leaderships Plans to Invade Taiwan. All these Military Plans ceased after the Chinese Military Leadership were Invited to the U.S. and first to Norfolk to observe U.S. War Games...then to bases all over the U.S....and then the Chinese Military were INFORMED. The Russians already knew but China did not so we TOLD THEM! We Demonstrated the Free Electron Laser as well as informed them of the MEB or Microwave Emitting Beam. This placed the Chinese Military Leaders in a STATE OF SHOCK! Upon informing the Chinese Communist Leadership...the Chinese Admiral who went on the trip was called a LIAR! If not for the rest of the Chinese Military Group confirming the Admirals statements...he would be in prison right now. The CHINESE COMMUNIST REGIME IS IN A TOTAL STATE OF SHOCK!

They are now aware that the U.S. Military is SO FAR IN ADVANCEMENT that CHINA could never catch up. Thus China no longer talks about Invading Taiwan and is Helping with the North Korean Issue. They have also decided not to build such a large Navy as the Current and Future U.S. Direct Energy Weapon Systems are so POWERFUL IN THEIR SCOPE that any FORMER COMMUNIST INVASION PLANS are now known to be DEATH TRAPS!

They also realize that if the U.S. were to stop making loan payments as well as the U.S. navy having the ability to respond to any Chinese Military Action against Taiwan or Japan...by simply cutting off China's supply of Oil Shipments as well as being capable of preventing ANY CHINESE MILITARY FORCE PROJECTION as no matter how many Soldiers a Country has...if they cannot get them to the Fight...they are just TARGETS!
Split Infinity

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