Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

Originally posted by CJS4life
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Well Muslims actually don't believe in the new testament so your quotes taken from John are irrelevant in the eyes of Islam. Do you believe in the holy trinity? That Jesus and God and the holy spirit are in fact one. If so then who did Jesus pray to? God? Yea that's who, someone else. Jesus believed in one god, Islam means belief in one God, so Jesus in theory was Islamic. He prayed five times a day, didn't drink, didn't eat swine, and fasted.

LOL. Where does it say he prayed 5 times a day? It doesn't, anywhere at all. Doesn't say he drank? His first miracle was changing water into wine and not only did he drink but he made the best wine. All jews drank wine, even more so at most of God's feastdays. The pharisees even called him a drunkard and a glutton. Muslim may not believe in the NT and that is their choice and they will pay for that as they have chosen to pay for their own sins instead of accepting the sacricfial Lamb. What is found in the NT is backed up by the OT, hence proverbs 30:4 is speaking directly about Jesus.

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?

If muslim recognize the OT scriptures then this verse cannot go ignored. If you read this in context established at the beginning of the chapter this speaks about God the "Holy One" of Israel. In fact verse 4 is alluding to Jesus walking across the see of Galilee in the middle of a nasty storm and he calms the winds and waters. It's amazing how a people can proclaim to believe in him yet ignore the scriptures written about him, which in essence leaves you believing in some other Jesus, not the one written of. So instead of reading scriptures written in the times of the Apostles, you're relying on the Quran that was written after Muhammad's death some 600+ years after the fact that have no basis and no connection to the Apostles and their own disciples like Polycarp, Silas and Luke. Even the OT tells how Jesus would die, beaten and bruised for our afflictions and pierced.

From prophet Zechariah:

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Isaiah 53:1-12

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
9 And they[a] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors

Also, Muslim recognize the book of Revelation which is a NT book, because they believe in the Antichrist, which originates from the New Testament. So what you have is stolen bits from the NT that ignores the good stuff.

double post

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

What? Truth is NOT relative. 1 + 1 is not 2 for some people and pi for others. Relativism is self-refuting. There is a specific fallacy of logic in Philosophy dealing with this, called the "Relativist Fallacy."

I didn't say ALL truth is relative...

One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans.... Is there an echo in here?

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

What? Truth is NOT relative. 1 + 1 is not 2 for some people and pi for others. Relativism is self-refuting. There is a specific fallacy of logic in Philosophy dealing with this, called the "Relativist Fallacy."

I didn't say ALL truth is relative...

One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans.... Is there an echo in here?

edit on 18-9-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

That's still a relativist fallacy, you just made it ad hoc. Relativism IS self-refuting, always.

Originally posted by Akragon
One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans...

Truth that is subjective is called "opinion", and it is not necessarily true.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Was that societal influence and upbringing truth? Was the Lebensborn truth?

Apparently it was "truth" to the people who believed in it...

Was that truth? If you say it is truth, then you have to say there is no wrong in it. If you say there is wrong in it, then it is not truth. Can you watch these and then tell us that truth for one is not truth for another?

Again... Truth is relative

the events of the holocaust were completely messed up and wrong as well... but to those that supported the idea behind it... it was truth.

Show me the truth in that. Classic example of upbringing and societal influences, would you not agree? Either it is wrong or it is right.

I would agree... perhaps you should be talking to someone who supported these ideals?

What is "wrong" to me and you, might not be wrong to someone else...

Is it wrong to murder or not? That is a simple question with a simple answer. Don't tell me how society thinks, don't tell me about your upbringing, tell me the answer from your own perspective. Is murder wrong or not?

If murder is wrong, then that must be truth. The statement "thou shalt not kill" is an absolute truth. There is no room for relativism within absolute. Either something is wrong or it is right. So then, is it wrong to murder?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

What? Truth is NOT relative. 1 + 1 is not 2 for some people and pi for others. Relativism is self-refuting. There is a specific fallacy of logic in Philosophy dealing with this, called the "Relativist Fallacy."

I didn't say ALL truth is relative...

One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans.... Is there an echo in here?

edit on 18-9-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

That's still a relativist fallacy, you just made it ad hoc. Relativism IS self-refuting, always.

edit on 18-9-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Thats nice...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans...

Truth that is subjective is called "opinion", and it is not necessarily true.

And what else does a man have aside from his opinions?

IF one man kills another man for whatever reason... regardless of anyone elses opinion of the matter... his reasoning behind his actions is is justified to him... and thus, it is his personal truth... and nothing can convince him otherwise.

Truth is subjective... it depends on that person life views

reply to post by WarminIndy

Is it wrong to murder or not? That is a simple question with a simple answer. Don't tell me how society thinks, don't tell me about your upbringing, tell me the answer from your own perspective. Is murder wrong or not?

If murder is wrong, then that must be truth. The statement "thou shalt not kill" is an absolute truth. There is no room for relativism within absolute. Either something is wrong or it is right. So then, is it wrong to murder?

Personally... yes i believe it is wrong...

Not everyone would agree... I consider 90% of the Deaths in the bible to be murder... not everyone agrees...

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
One mans truth isn't always the same as another mans...

Truth that is subjective is called "opinion", and it is not necessarily true.

In my opinion from my experience, pistachio ice cream is the best. It temporarily satisfies me, giving me a happy moment, so from my experience everyone should eat pistachio ice cream. What? People want truth about my opinion? "Wait a minute"..someone might say "I have never liked pistachio". And another says "Wait, I have never experienced pistachio, prove to me exists". Eat pistachio I say, you will like it.

Have I just not given an opinion based in my own truth? I tried to influence you. Eat pistachio and love it or else you have not lived yet. You don't like my "truth"? Why not? Is there something wrong with pistachio? Give me proof there is something wrong with pistachio.

Subjective is an opinion. Truth is never subjective. There is nothing in pistachio to convince you to like it if you don't. So my opinion is not truth.

If I then said "ice cream is not healthy for you', then that is a truth because ice cream is not healthy. That is not an opinion, it is truth. Subjective opinions only lie within a person who is attracted to certain things. Not everybody likes ice cream, not everybody likes pistachio, so then why is my opinion more valid? It is subjective to me.

When we say "the Bible says thou shalt not kill", it is not our opinion. Some people are attracted to murder. Is it their opinion that murder is ok for them? When it becomes their opinion, then to murder someone becomes a subjective concept. Either murder is right or wrong. That cannot be left to opinion, otherwise the world would be killing right and left. Wait, killing is happening right and left. Why is this? Because they traded a precept of truth for their own subjective opinion.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Personally... yes i believe it is wrong...

Why is it wrong? In your subjective opinion, tell us why it is wrong. And personally, that means to you, so why is it wrong?

Originally posted by Akragon
Truth is subjective... it depends on that person life views

So if truth depends on each person's life and "Were all MAD...", where does that leave YOU?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Personally... yes i believe it is wrong...

Why is it wrong? In your subjective opinion, tell us why it is wrong. And personally, that means to you, so why is it wrong?

Because i don't believe in causing harm to any living creature... but again, not everyone agrees with that...

My friends make fun of me for catching and releasing flies... I could simply crush them in my hand if i wanted to, but i would rather let them go... but that is my choice

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Originally posted by Akragon
Truth is subjective... it depends on that person life views

So if truth depends on each person's life and "Were all MAD...", where does that leave YOU?

Crazy as a loon i suppose...

Im Good with that

Originally posted by Akragon
Truth is subjective... it depends on that person life views

No, interpretation of the truth is subjective and may depend on a person's life views. Views do not change truth.

I guess that this irrational perspective might explain why you believe things appear in the Bible which do not, and how you believe that you dictate behaviour to God (or, at the very least, put words in his mouth that he did not say.)

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Personally... yes i believe it is wrong...

Why is it wrong? In your subjective opinion, tell us why it is wrong. And personally, that means to you, so why is it wrong?

Because i don't believe in causing harm to any living creature... but again, not everyone agrees with that...

My friends make fun of me for catching and releasing flies... I could simply crush them in my hand if i wanted to, but i would rather let them go... but that is my choice

That does not tell us why it is wrong. You have only indicated your own personal viewpoint about flies. Why is it wrong?

reply to post by Akragon


It's a fact Muslims don't believe in the new testament. They believe in the gospel ie the old testament. You might not know because you aren't a Muslim but this is a fact

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Truth is subjective... it depends on that person life views

No, interpretation of the truth is subjective and may depend on a person's life views. Views do not change truth.

I guess that this irrational perspective might explain why you believe things appear in the Bible which do not, and how you believe that you dictate behaviour to God (or, at the very least, put words in his mouth that he did not say.)

Believe whatever you like about me... doesn't matter in the least... Its tragic that you don't see what i do within the bible but some people just arn't meant to understand.

I do not dictate to anyone... especially God... though I've also learned that your God is most definatly not the same as my God... Thus what you call truth i do not...

On the other hand i don't post things about people that wern't said as you do either... so *shrug* Perhaps its just typical christian behaviour... i don't know, and i really don't care...

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Personally... yes i believe it is wrong...

Why is it wrong? In your subjective opinion, tell us why it is wrong. And personally, that means to you, so why is it wrong?

Because i don't believe in causing harm to any living creature... but again, not everyone agrees with that...

My friends make fun of me for catching and releasing flies... I could simply crush them in my hand if i wanted to, but i would rather let them go... but that is my choice

That does not tell us why it is wrong. You have only indicated your own personal viewpoint about flies. Why is it wrong?

Its my choice... i don't know if its wrong or not...

I simply don't feel the need to harm another living being... Perhaps it is God given morality... maybe not..

Originally posted by CJS4life
reply to post by Akragon

 

It's a fact Muslims don't believe in the new testament. They believe in the gospel ie the old testament. You might not know because you aren't a Muslim but this is a fact

You didn't answer my question.... without the gospels muslims would know nothing of Jesus... so how can you say that you don't believe in the books where his words are used?

reply to post by Akragon


If truth was subjective, and you believed you could fly and you climbed to the top of the Eiffel Tower, and really believed you could fly and jumped, what would happen?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That is an obvious fact, not a subjective truth...

IF you believe there is only one God, yet another religion says there is many... which is truth?

Obviously both parties have their own truth of the matter...