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Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

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posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Through out the gospels you can see his followers did not understand who they were... or even his message to the world...

Look at Luke 9:55... he states directly "ye know not what type of spirit you are"... to James and John, two of his most devout followers...

Its just unfortunate that religious authorities divide and conquer...

He said... "i came not to destroy mens lives, but to save them" His words save men through the realization of what is within all of us...

And that which is within is God...





posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Matthew 25:31-46

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


You can look up the rest if you want...



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 


You poor deluded soul... Why did you stop reading there?

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


As you can clearly see, those verses mean it is these peoples choice to behave like this...

Love thy neighbour... Its your choice to believe this rule or not...

regardless they are still children of God... "everlasting punishment" means you're comming back to the physical for another round... which will continue forever, until you learn your lessons




posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
I can make an absolute conclusion based on the observations I have made throughout my life.


No, you cannot, not rationally anyway. You are attempting to prove a negative, trying to say "God doesn't exist, because there is no evidence", but your survey of the evidence is infinitesimally small. There is a whole universe that you haven't experienced and billions and billions of years of history, to boot.


There is no such thing as a complete observation, at some point you have to stop playing semantics and realize that people draw conclusion based on available evidence.


I'm afraid that it's you who are trying to use semantics to claim that an irrational statement is valid. Any conclusion drawn from available evidence needs to be weighed against the potential for evidence, and for you to say that you can conclude that God doesn't exist, based on your personal observations over the course of a short number of years, in a limited geographical area, is irrational.

You believe that you've never seen evidence that would lead you to believe that God exists. You have an opinion, nothing more.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
reply to post by WarminIndy
 


When you believe in a concept that has no supporting evidence it is ignorant.

2nd line


Why is my experience not enough evidence for me? Are you saying that because you have never experienced morality? You have experienced morality. Where does that morality come from? I think you would like to say it comes from society, well immorality also comes from society that arbitrarily changes the definitions of morality. You would agree that Adolph Hitler implied his own morality, except it was immoral what he did.

Thou shalt not kill is not arbitrary, I am sure you would agree to that one. That is a non-changeable precept found in the Bible. So if thou shalt not kill, but Adolph Hitler murdered then he was not following the precept in the Bible, I think we could agree that is what happened. But through the concept of arbitrarily changing his own morality we were left with evidence that supports the experience of the higher truth and precepts. Adolph Hitler was not considered by his supporters to be less than human, to be less than intelligent and to be less than right.
When he denied the higher truth he changed morality into immorality. Where was the evidence to support his own inward immorality? Where was the evidence to support such a change? Was the evidence not found in his own actions?

Is it not arbitrary to say some people should be murdered while others may live? Then is it not arbitrary to say some people should be lied to, some people should be robbed from and some people should be hated? The evidence that supports this is found through the actions of people who arbitrarily changed their morality because they believed their morality was found solely within themselves. Their morality is viewed as immoral. But why should it be considered immoral by the rest of us? If the sole argument you have made is "where is the evidence to support faith" then take a moment to question Adolph Hitler. If you believe that he has the right to arbitrarily define morality, as you yourself believe you can, then you are in essence saying that Adolph Hitler committed no wrong. If you say he was wrong, then where is the evidence to support he was wrong?

Will you then tell me it was because he was ignorant? Adolph Hitler was anything but uneducated and unintellectual. Please understand that I am not in anyway excusing Hitler or approving of Hitler, I am merely using him as the example of the evidence you ask for. Whose precepts did he violate? The evidence you seek is found in you. Where does your morality come from? If you believe it comes from you and you alone, that does not explain my morality. That actually justifies my morality because my morality is based in higher truth and precepts and the evidence that supports it is in the fact I have never murdered anyone. Did I need you to tell me not to kill? You have never told me that so then I do not rely on your morality. But if you have told me not to kill, but your morality is arbitrary depending on how you feel on a particular day, then how can I trust your morality?

If five million people all agree with you, and yet everyone of you can change your morality then morality of humankind is not firm, it is not solid and it is not a precept. The evidence that supports this is in the fact within this society there are murders and thefts. Those murders and thefts are the result of arbitrary morality.

The Bible declares an unchanging morality. You however, believe that morality can be changed on a whim. The supporting evidence has been proven that when you violate the Biblical precepts from God, destruction is the result. I have an idea, why don't you become a defense lawyer and go to court for criminals and say "they arbitrarily changed their morality". Do you think the rest of society would buy that? Yes, if you convince society that morality of their own making preempts Biblical precepts, then an entire society will indeed act upon that. It happened time and time again, the supporting evidence is everywhere.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
reply to post by adjensen
 


I can make an absolute conclusion based on the observations I have made throughout my life. That's not to say I can't be wrong, but at this point in my life God has yet to reveal himself to me or anyone I know. There is no such thing as 100% certainty, but there is a such thing as great probability and in light of an absence of evidence I believe it is a great probability that there is no God, just like i believe it is a great probability that the boogy man isn't hiding in my closet.


You can make an absolute conclusion based on your observations?

Definition of ABSOLUTE 1 a : free from imperfection : perfect b : free or relatively free from mixture : pure c : outright, unmitigated 2 : being, governed by, or characteristic of a ruler or authority completely free from constitutional or other restraint 3 a : standing apart from a normal or usual syntactical relation with other words or sentence elements b of an adjective or possessive pronoun : standing alone without a modified substantive c of a verb : having no object in the particular construction under consideration though normally transitive 4 : having no restriction, exception, or qualification 5 : positive, unquestionable 6 a : independent of arbitrary standards of measurement b : relating to or derived in the simplest manner from the fundamental units of length, mass, and time c : relating to, measured on, or being a temperature scale based on absolute zero specifically : kelvin 7 : fundamental, ultimate 8 : perfectly embodying the nature of a thing 9 : being self-sufficient and free of external references or relationships 10 : being the true distance from an aircraft to the earth's surface


Which one of these describes your observations? Let's assume you mean number 9, to be free of external references or relationships. You stated you make observations. Where are these observations, are they internal or external? You have observed something external to look for God.

Have you failed to observe what happens when people violate God's precepts? In looking for God, you have to conclude that God gave precepts that should never be violated. You have to observe that destruction follows the violations. If you are observing externally, then it cannot be absolute. Your perceptions of the external are not always correct. You have admitted that yourself. The evidence is all around you, but you have chosen to not observe the evidence.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:03 PM
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So MANY here are deceived concerning the importance of taking God at His word.

This is an interview with someone who had a face to face encounter with Jesus when Jesus explained to her that we MUST believe God and trust Him to protect His written word.

This quote is the key point (10 min. 30 sec.):

"You don't believe my word the Bible."

"It's My responsibility as God to protect My word for you."

A Testimony of a Face to Face Encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ


Nathan Leal interviews "CJ"

A powerful testimony from a woman being interviewed by Nathan Leal. She tells of how she continued living her life in religious and self deception until she had a face to face encounter with the risen Lord, Jesus, who rebuked her and made it clear to her in no uncertain terms that it's either she was going to surrender all or nothing at all. On his terms, and not on hers. Her testimony will really challenge you to want to make sure your heart is in the right place and that you're not detracted by idols.





edit on 18-9-2012 by Murgatroid because: I felt like it..



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Sorry friend, this is a one way trip, no returns. Maybe in some eastern religion but where in the Bible does it say you will get to try again if you mess up? It doesn't.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by MamaJ
 


Through out the gospels you can see his followers did not understand who they were... or even his message to the world...

Look at Luke 9:55... he states directly "ye know not what type of spirit you are"... to James and John, two of his most devout followers...

Its just unfortunate that religious authorities divide and conquer...

He said... "i came not to destroy mens lives, but to save them" His words save men through the realization of what is within all of us...

And that which is within is God...



I hate to beat a dying horse, but here goes one more time. "And that which is within is God". If morality comes from God, and God is within humans, then why are humans susceptible to changing their morality?



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Sorry friend, this is a one way trip, no returns. Maybe in some eastern religion but where in the Bible does it say you will get to try again if you mess up? It doesn't.



Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by TheGreatDivider
reply to post by Akragon
 


Sorry friend, this is a one way trip, no returns. Maybe in some eastern religion but where in the Bible does it say you will get to try again if you mess up? It doesn't.



Dispite what you may think, the bible isn't the end all be all of spiritual knowledge...

This is not a one way trip... that is simply christian theology. And you might find that Christians are the only group on the planet that believe that this is the only life you've lived, and its a very nieve view to say the least...

Theres plenty of evidence in the bible for life after death... in fact every single religion is based around "life after death"... And the idea of Heaven or hell, is just a fabrication of the church to control the populous. Basically saying if you don't join our click you'll burn in hell forever... Which actually completely contradicts the idea of a loving merciful God/creator

IF your child disobeyed you and refused to listen to your rules, would you lock him up in prison and set the building on fire?

Of course you wouldn't... and neither would God the Father.

But as i've said, believe whatever you like... beliefs matter very little, and some things are true regardless of one factions beliefs.




posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:33 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by MamaJ
 


Through out the gospels you can see his followers did not understand who they were... or even his message to the world...

Look at Luke 9:55... he states directly "ye know not what type of spirit you are"... to James and John, two of his most devout followers...

Its just unfortunate that religious authorities divide and conquer...

He said... "i came not to destroy mens lives, but to save them" His words save men through the realization of what is within all of us...

And that which is within is God...



I hate to beat a dying horse, but here goes one more time. "And that which is within is God". If morality comes from God, and God is within humans, then why are humans susceptible to changing their morality?


Morality doesn't come from God, it comes from upbringing... and basic societal influence.

One mans truth is not always the same for another my friend




posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy


reply to post by Akragon
 


Sorry friend, this is a one way trip, no returns. Maybe in some eastern religion but where in the Bible does it say you will get to try again if you mess up? It doesn't.



Hebrews 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:




That was talking about miracles and the resurrection not reincarnation...
edit on 18-9-2012 by TheGreatDivider because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Well Muslims actually don't believe in the new testament so your quotes taken from John are irrelevant in the eyes of Islam. Do you believe in the holy trinity? That Jesus and God and the holy spirit are in fact one. If so then who did Jesus pray to? God? Yea that's who, someone else. Jesus believed in one god, Islam means belief in one God, so Jesus in theory was Islamic. He prayed five times a day, didn't drink, didn't eat swine, and fasted.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by CJS4life
 


If you don't mind me asking...

Without the gospels Islam would know nothing about Jesus... so how can you say Muslims don't believe in the NT when the entire religion stems from the same source?

Your statement is nothing but speculation... there is nothing that says that Jesus didn't drink or eat swine... Though he did make a statement that purged all meat... Nothing that comes into the body through the mouth can defile the body

And in Thomas its said that Fasting is unnecessary as well...


edit on 18-9-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 06:59 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by MamaJ
 


Through out the gospels you can see his followers did not understand who they were... or even his message to the world...

Look at Luke 9:55... he states directly "ye know not what type of spirit you are"... to James and John, two of his most devout followers...

Its just unfortunate that religious authorities divide and conquer...

He said... "i came not to destroy mens lives, but to save them" His words save men through the realization of what is within all of us...

And that which is within is God...



I hate to beat a dying horse, but here goes one more time. "And that which is within is God". If morality comes from God, and God is within humans, then why are humans susceptible to changing their morality?


Morality doesn't come from God, it comes from upbringing... and basic societal influence.

One mans truth is not always the same for another my friend



Really? Your upbringing and societal influences huh? I want to show you something....


Was that societal influence and upbringing truth? Was the Lebensborn truth?
Hitler's Children Documentary

Was that truth? If you say it is truth, then you have to say there is no wrong in it. If you say there is wrong in it, then it is not truth. Can you watch these and then tell us that truth for one is not truth for another?

Lebensborn

Show me the truth in that. Classic example of upbringing and societal influences, would you not agree? Either it is wrong or it is right. You imply that as long as society and upbringing influence you then your truth supersedes. They thought it was truth. Are you justifying their truth by your implication "live and let live"?



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
Of course you wouldn't... and neither would God the Father.


When were you appointed God's spokesman? I must have missed that press release.



posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 



Was that societal influence and upbringing truth? Was the Lebensborn truth?


Apparently it was "truth" to the people who believed in it...


Was that truth? If you say it is truth, then you have to say there is no wrong in it. If you say there is wrong in it, then it is not truth. Can you watch these and then tell us that truth for one is not truth for another?


Again... Truth is relative

the events of the holocaust were completely messed up and wrong as well... but to those that supported the idea behind it... it was truth.


Show me the truth in that. Classic example of upbringing and societal influences, would you not agree? Either it is wrong or it is right.


I would agree... perhaps you should be talking to someone who supported these ideals?

What is "wrong" to me and you, might not be wrong to someone else...


You imply that as long as society and upbringing influence you then your truth supersedes.


Actually you implied that.... i said nothing of the sort...


They thought it was truth. Are you justifying their truth by your implication "live and let live"?


Im not justifying anything... I said one mans truth isn't always the same as anothers... I thought it was pretty self explanatory




posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon
Of course you wouldn't... and neither would God the Father.


When were you appointed God's spokesman? I must have missed that press release.


I'll be sure to send you another copy




posted on Sep, 18 2012 @ 07:13 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


What? Truth is NOT relative. 1 + 1 is not 2 for some people and pi for others. Relativism is self-refuting. There is a specific fallacy of logic in Philosophy dealing with this, called the "Relativist Fallacy."



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