Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

Not even a simple - bold english statement was made by jesus claiming to be god , example

" I am God, worship me "

By the way

BASTARD: This word occurs in the Bible THREE times:

a) "The BASTARD shall not enter the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation
DEUTERONOMY 23:2

b) "And a BASTARD shall dwell in Ashdod
ZECHARIAH 9:6

(c) "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then ye are BASTARDS and not sons. " HERREWS 12:8

WTF? These are the word of god?

Originally posted by raiders247

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents

If that's your desire, might I suggest refraining from faith-based forums and threads.

Why should I do that?

This website's motto is "Deny Ignorance"

Don't shoot the messenger...

ETA: In my experience it's this forum (religion/faith) that promotes the most ignorance, if ATS truly wanted to deny ignorance they would remove this forum

edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)

Let me ask this of you, what makes us ignorant? Could you please explain to us what we are ignorant about? Are we ignorant because we believe in God? Are we ignorant because we perceive you are ignorant about God?

From where we sit, you are the one that is ignorant. Prove to me I am wrong if you can. Use your own faith-based reasoning apart from any sources, links, pictures, videos, and popular opinions and theories to prove us wrong. We don't need outside sources to give us faith, we have our own inward experience and relationship that you cannot deny, denounce, tread upon, diminish, exclude or reject.

If you choose to say I am ignorant about my own inward experience, then you must be God to know this. Since you are not God, could you explain your own lack of experience? If you say that inward experience does not count then you are the one promoting ignorance because you have never had my inward experience, you have never thought with my mind or felt with my heart. You have never dreamed my dreams and neither have you thought my thoughts. So how can you say that we are the ignorant ones when you are the one who relies solely on the non-experience of outside sources. You are the one who basing your non-belief on theories, postulations and statements made by other people.

When you have dreamed my dreams, thought my thoughts and remembered my memories then you can come back and tell me that I am ignorant, Until that day happens, you remain ignorant of my inward experience.You base your experience on the non-belief of others, so what does it make you?

I challenge you now, tell me my dreams, share my memories, postulate my thoughts and tell me what I have experienced inwardly.

Originally posted by raiders247
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

reply to post by adjensen

 

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

It's amazing how none of you can grasp the most simple concept.

Go ahead, keep believing in whatever it is you want to believe in with or without proof because it is painfully obvious none of you care for truth.

I apologize on behalf of whoever/whatever brainwashed some of you to the point where you cannot understand why someone chooses not to believe in something without proof.

Seems like most of you are more interested in playing semantics while avoiding the elephant in the room, and that is that no religious belief is rational, logical or sane.

I have to go have dinner now with Martin Luther King Jr. and Heath Ledger, i'm running late but i summoned my faster-than-light speed unicorn so I should make it to Alpha Centauri in time for appetizers. Believe me, I can't prove it but just take my word for it...

edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)

Further displaying your logical and rational mind by continuing to deploy appeals to ridicule and ad hom comments?

reply to post by WarminIndy


Nicely put, though it will fall on deaf ears. As demonstrated earlier, he is making largely irrational statements, but doesn't recognize them as such, so your personal experience is of no merit to him. No, he doesn't have to prove or disprove anything to others, but so long as he remains mired in his "my perception of my own experience is all that matters" mentality, he'll be left thinking that there is no evidence for God.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by luciddream
Ah the "My religion is more right" trick... an oldest trick in the old middle east.

edit on 9/17/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)

It's not about religions. It's about faith and what is true about Jesus the Messiah and what he said. According to him he is the only one who ever ascended and descended, so Muhammad is in error. By Muhammad saying he ascended and descended he is saying his is Messiah as according to Proverbs 30:4 and John 3:13, so he is putting himself above Jesus which is blasphemy.

Nobody is above Jesus and nobody is below Jesus from my point of view. He knows more about some things but knowing more does not equal worth. You are making Jesus into an idol where he was the message and messanger in one connected to the whole. He is part of god and can be guided by god in the oneness and because of the closeness between them him or god would say the same thing. But he is not the whole god. If he was the earth would have been destroyed/altered with the rest of this galaxy.

I am not making Jesus into anything, He is who He is. In the Exodus it doesn't say just a part of Yahweh came down on Mt. Sinai, it says He was there and he commanded Moses not to allow any of of his people to touch the mountain or they would die. I don't know who your God is but mine is omnipresent and he can be everywhere, he is not bound by the laws of physics that he made.

Just because god is everywhere do not mean the whole god is on one spot. Never ask god to be in one spot. It will have extreme concequence if it agrees to it.

Originally posted by raiders247

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by raiders247
Religions have caused more harm to our species/planet/environment than any atheist ever will.

You seriously believe that religions have caused more harm than the 20th Century atheists Lenin, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot did?

I'm sure that you're fully aware that there were only three major purely religious wars in history, right? And that less than 5,000 people died in the vaunted Inquisitions? And that the combined death count of those atheist leaders exceeds 70 million people, right?

Just sayin.

Yes I seriously believe that the wars that Christian/Jewish nations have started in the middle east is/will be far more damaging than ANYTHING that happened in the 20th century.

Religion promotes division and intolerance, which then leads to disagreements and conflict, which then lead to senseless deaths all because of the "I'm right you're wrong" mentality.

70 million people lost their lives because of terrible human beings, not because of Atheism

And the funny thing is their religon tell them they should be the opposite but they still use it as a duality toy (I'm right you're wrong mentality). Jesus have to be very dissapointed in what his teaching has done. Sorry Jesus you where an increadable teacher, but it seems your students lack all ability to understand you. It is like a wierd joke seeing people saying they love Jesus when they are caught up in the same thing he wanted them to free themselves from.

What's important is ALL MEN!

ALL ARE CREATED ARE HIS!

In the beginning was a serpent ( desire) for the material.

Look at our world today!

Focused on material wealth and ruining the nature which was given back in the garden.

The life that is within nature is being depleted by mankind.

Where is the integrity?

When did it end?

Back in the garden.

Wake up children, for if we don't mankind will cease.

All our brothers and sisters share this earth and we are killing him, raping him, and stealing from him.

When will it end?

Originally posted by shuar911
Not even a simple - bold english statement was made by jesus claiming to be god , example

" I am God, worship me "

Jesus did not speak English in His 33 years on Earth.

While He was here, He did say He was Ehjeh, the same God who spoke to Moses. Here is His words, translated into English.

"58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58 KJV)

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by LightAssassin
Furthermore, from one of the books EXCLUDED from the bible, The Gospel of Thomas:

To say that Thomas was excluded would imply that it was ever considered for canon, which it was not (not in the form found in Nag Hammadi, anyway.)

The saying that you cite is fairly classic Gnostic claim, derived from Valentinus in the mid-Second Century.

3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is
in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they
say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

"The Kingdom" is the spirit world -- the spirit that is within your material being, and the spirit that lies beyond the material place.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and
you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living
Father.

When you learn the true knowledge, then the Aeons and Archons will recognize you, and you will be allowed to leave the material world.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty
and it is you who are that poverty."

But if you don't acquire the Gnosis, sorry Charlie, you're stuck here in the material world for another go around, and better luck next time.

Sound like something that would be included in the New Testament? Nope, didn't think so

Gnosis is not useful to poleticians wanting control of a people since Gnosis make the people demand Justice and equality. There is a lot of thruths in Christianety. And that is why it is such a trap since you cannot see the wrotten trees if you belive and forece yourself to have faith that the whole forest is pure. And if you really exmanine every wrotten tree you lose faith in god. Christianety is not the whole thruth no matter how much some people here say it is. But god exists from my experiance and is a lot better than what the Bible tells ous but I am very biased. I never liked Christianety when I was young and when I hear from Dualistic Christians spewing hate then I really do not want to be in the crowd with them. They are frankly pushing people away from beliveing them by being fundamentalistic.

Fortunatly god can see beyond any human created view of him and even my mind/ego and judge me based on what my spirit is. That is why I truely love god. He/she is not of a smallminded selfish ego mind. If you love the highest ideals that god can teach and try to follow them for the sake that it is right, then god will not leave you even if you do not even know that he/she exists and even hate god because you belive god is like what the human religious dogma tell you god is.

You all seem to be playing semantics rather well!! I think basically it all boils down to one question, on the day you die, and that is "Do You Feel Lucky Punk?"
PEACE!!

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Nicely put, though it will fall on deaf ears. As demonstrated earlier, he is making largely irrational statements, but doesn't recognize them as such, so your personal experience is of no merit to him. No, he doesn't have to prove or disprove anything to others, but so long as he remains mired in his "my perception of my own experience is all that matters" mentality, he'll be left thinking that there is no evidence for God.

And that is exactly what is irrational, to have an inward understanding but to denounce a faith because it does not agree with popular mentality of existentialism. Those today who choose to denounce faith are following the ideas of Jaques Sartre, even though they might be unaware of that. Sartre is not taught in high school, and many do not encounter his philosophy until university. But thousands can view videos on youtube and take them as truth.

This is the crux of Sartre's philosopy.

..man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world – and defines himself afterwards." Of course, the more positive, therapeutic aspect of this is also implied: A person can choose to act in a different way, and to be a good person instead of a cruel person. Here it is also clear that since humans can choose to be either cruel or good, they are, in fact, neither of these things essentially

For people who believe they existed first then the belief in God came later can be taken as true, but the essence of my being is not contingent upon the existence of God. Whether I exist or not, God exists. Sartre also

describes abandonment as the loneliness that atheists feel when they realize that there is no God to prescribe a way of life, no guidance for people on how to live; that we're abandoned in the sense of being alone in the universe and the arbiters of our own essence.

This is what Sartre himself calls bad faith.

If one becomes the arbiter of their own existence, then they can arbitrarily apply morality. The critic of Sartre was Thomas Anderson

asserting without explanation that if a person seeks freedom from false, external authorities, then he or she must invariably allow this freedom for others.

As a believer, do I seek relief from the angst of the bad faith choices? If I made the choice in bad faith, I still must accept the consequences. But if the morality exists outside of myself and I seek not to arbitrarily define morality because morality is not arbitrary, then my faith cannot be bad.
Sartre again

In order to describe the probable, you must have a firm hold on the true. Therefore, before there can be any truth whatsoever, there must be an absolute truth; and this one is easily arrived at; it is on everyone’s doorstep; it is a matter of grasping it directly.

Is there absolute truth within an arbitrary environment? This is what the poster would have us believe in his lack of faith, which is an arbiter. He can one day believe and the next day not believe, the conditions of his faith is arbitrary, therefore only defined for himself. As a Christian, I find that God is not arbitrary, that His truths are established and unchanging and this was before my existence. The essence of me then cannot be arbitrary because faith is based on a higher principle. I think, therefore I am. That is not arbitrary. I am cannot ever be I am not.

The poster cannot ever not be. If he is, then that is unchangeable as long as he exists. Was he not before he was born? Yes, but his birth was not of his own doing, he did not arbitrarily create his existence. After he is dead, will he not be? It remains then that he was. He cannot arbitrarily make himself never having been.

Christians believe God Is. If God IS, then His existence is not contingent upon my existence, which is, whether I agree or not that I exist. My existence is not arbitrary at all. If within my existence, I experienced the higher truths and principles that existed before me, then that higher truth and principle cannot be arbitrary either.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by shuar911
Not even a simple - bold english statement was made by jesus claiming to be god , example

" I am God, worship me "

Jesus did not speak English in His 33 years on Earth.

While He was here, He did say He was Ehjeh, the same God who spoke to Moses. Here is His words, translated into English.

"58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58 KJV)

That's because before Abraham he was in existence as I Am..... Insert name here.

He is the first and last Adam.

And so, the story continues in man.

We find our self in struggles from day to day with the desires of the material world.

We have still yet to learn that from within we can cure our self from ailments and we have not learned that material wealth only ends in slavery of which we all will most certainly die, hence the garden.

God gave us this beautiful land/ garden and look what we have done to it.

We as a species can only hope goodness in nature will begin to go accordingly and not against it.

We strive today to build a wealth of success and we do not strive to take care of our earth, our self, and fellow man.

We can only hope the end is not nigh and we still have a chance to show we are a good creation going in the good order we were intended for.

Wars do not equal peace. They are a waste of resources.

We do not need oil as the blood of the earth simply cannot replace itself.

What we are seeing today is the struggles of man on the inside reflected on the outside.

Originally posted by DARREN1976
You all seem to be playing semantics rather well!! I think basically it all boils down to one question, on the day you die, and that is "Do You Feel Lucky Punk?"

PEACE!!

I'm right there with ya , we'll all find out our true origins one day. I will never understand why religous people continue to argue over semantics and literature that is thousands of years old. Instead of picking apart other peoples beliefs, can't we just agree that most of us have no idea but we believe in a higher power? United we stand, divided we fall.

reply to post by MamaJ


Or, Enoch went somewhere other than "heaven" such as "Abraham's Bosom". If God had incarnated as a man back then he would have done what he needed to do back then instead of letting this go on for millenia. Then it raises the question of Elijah. Jesus didn't fear anyone, Elijah feared Jezebel to a certain extent. There is no indication anywhere in the OT that Jesus was either of those men. Neither Elijah nor Enoch were born of a virgin as prophesied in Isaiah 7 without a human father, they were born into sin from corrupted man and the God-Man had to be pure and sinless and a human father would have ensured that sin would have been on him.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


There are some others who ascended and came back down. (Paul and John come to mind) John doesn't describe his ascent and descent, but that's how he saw all what he saw for Revelations.

2 Cor. 12:2-4

I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. 3Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know 4that I was caught upb to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.

Rev. 4:1-3

1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. (Revelation 4:1-3)

Even Enoch was taken to heaven, and came back down and was allowed to stay on Earth for 30 days. Also, Abraham went into heaven as well. That book is not included in today's bible. But, he wrote about it in Abraham's vision of heaven.

Here we are in the 21st century and mankind still has so many throwbacks to pre-historic times, pretending to be human beings..

My bible is the truth, "I have proof"... "Here see It says so in the bible"..What more proof would you need than a line in a book saying this is a true story and nothing more...

Sam goes for Islam and Judism.

reply to post by truejew

Originally posted by truejew
Pure religion never lies.

You are correct, BUT...

The MAJORITY of religion is a deceptive lie.

IMPURE religion and the deception behind it was what I was referring to.

Let me clarify:

The word "religion" (from the original Latin) means to "reconnect with God".

The agenda behind FALSE religion is to keep you disconnected from God.

Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrum's.

One is the work of God, one is a man made invention.

The real agenda of all Illuminati created false religion is to blind and misguide you AWAY from the truth.

"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control." Link

What if I were to tell you, that there is a vast Satanic conspiracy to deceive the masses of every society on earth? What if I were to tell you that the top leaders of the world’s religions were in league with the Devil? Would you think I’m crazy? I would! Yet, the truth is stranger than fiction! You have been lied to my friend. Few people in the world today are aware of just how much Satan has infiltrated and is behind ALL false religion.
Source

"Today the religions of the world remain a major tool of the Illuminati agenda." Link

"What if there were people within the various Churches of God who covertly were guiding the members to slowly accept new ideas which are alien to the true faith and who were dedicated to destroying that faith at all costs?"

JESUIT-JEDI MINDTRICKS

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrum's.

One is the work of God, one is a man made invention.

Then why was Jesus a practicing Jew? Sure, he noted the inconsistencies of some of the practices of the Pharisees, but if you don't think Jesus was religious, you're misreading the Bible.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Or, Enoch went somewhere other than "heaven" such as "Abraham's Bosom". If God had incarnated as a man back then he would have done what he needed to do back then instead of letting this go on for millenia. Then it raises the question of Elijah. Jesus didn't fear anyone, Elijah feared Jezebel to a certain extent. There is no indication anywhere in the OT that Jesus was either of those men. Neither Elijah nor Enoch were born of a virgin as prophesied in Isaiah 7 without a human father, they were born into sin from corrupted man and the God-Man had to be pure and sinless and a human father would have ensured that sin would have been on him.

edit on 18-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

No, Enoch went to heaven. He clearly went to heaven and he is clearly the same as Jesus.

Why do fear Jesus is not God, but our brother? He, like you have incarnated more than once. Im not trying to fool you in the least! We are ALL sons and daughters of God!

The doctrine you have been taught is separate from that Jesus taught.

The doctrine teaching has been corrupted by ignorance my friend. It's called politics.

Seek and you will most certainly find.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Murgatroid
Jesus and religion are on opposite spectrum's.

One is the work of God, one is a man made invention.

Then why was Jesus a practicing Jew? Sure, he noted the inconsistencies of some of the practices of the Pharisees, but if you don't think Jesus was religious, you're misreading the Bible.

Jesus did keep certain practices, but he was more concerned with moral law not ceremonial law. Pharisees were primarily ceremonial law as Jesus accused them of "washing outside the cup but not cleaning the inside". When the pharisees accused him of working on the sabbath for healing people, Jesus responded that neither He nor Father had ever stopped working since the beginning. Religion is Man reaching up to God, Grace is God reaching down to Man.