Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

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posted on Sep, 21 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen
 


I don't really struggle with it, since it's physical in nature it had to be created, thus the Creator must exist outside of it, and prior to it.


No, it isn't the fact of it that I can't sort out, but the nature of it.

But, as you say, no sense to struggle with it.


Struggle with it! I love you both and you are both great thinkers. I myself do not have any education in physics so I am unsure which equation is breaking your idea of God being outside time and space, but to put it in a visual perspective:



In this visual representation, you will notice that one dimension (the third) is constantly turning into and being enveloped by another, implying that 4 dimensions are dominated by a fifth. Time could be considered the passage of these dimensions within a relativistic framework (a human framework) but ultimately of no universal consequence as compared to dimensions. I.E All things (past, present, and future) exist at once, almost like a large stack of photographs which form a "flip book" when viewed from the right angle. God is within the proper perspective/dimension to view this "flip book" without having to even "flip" it, having written all pages, and seeing them outside of the current dimension we do (3r'd and 4th).

Random musings from an uneducated brain. Disregard everything I just said


Wow. Just realized I'm WAY off topic. Sorry!
edit on 21-9-2012 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 21 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen
 


I don't really struggle with it, since it's physical in nature it had to be created, thus the Creator must exist outside of it, and prior to it.


No, it isn't the fact of it that I can't sort out, but the nature of it.

But, as you say, no sense to struggle with it.


I get ya, Its mind-blowing. It is very cool.



posted on Sep, 21 2012 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by DeadSeraph
 


The equation is:

E=MC^2

General Relativity Theory of 1916


Don't apologize my friend.



posted on Sep, 21 2012 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


But wait - the OP SAID it was a "well known fact" that the dude flew up into space. But seriously. OP, it's not a well-known fact. It might be well known that lots of people believe it to be true, but that does not make it true. Many people used to believe it true that the earth was flat. Did that make it true? Of course not.

Faith and Fact are two different things. You'll never, ever be able to prove that some dude floated up into space, nor can you prove Jesus rose to life and took his flight up to Jupiter.

I'm not debating your argument about what your scriptures say or what you are trying to argue, but I think starting out any post with "It's a well known fact" is asking for scrutiny.



posted on Sep, 22 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by flashtrum

Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


But wait - the OP SAID it was a "well known fact" that the dude flew up into space. But seriously. OP, it's not a well-known fact. It might be well known that lots of people believe it to be true, but that does not make it true. Many people used to believe it true that the earth was flat. Did that make it true? Of course not.

Faith and Fact are two different things. You'll never, ever be able to prove that some dude floated up into space, nor can you prove Jesus rose to life and took his flight up to Jupiter.

I'm not debating your argument about what your scriptures say or what you are trying to argue, but I think starting out any post with "It's a well known fact" is asking for scrutiny.


Comprehension fail. This is what i said:



It's a well known fact in Islam


Neither did i say he flew up into space, you did. Yeshua didn't go to Jupiter either. FYI i was comparing what is written between 2 different scriptures, both claiming to believe in Christ, but one faith puts another above the one we both claim as Messiah. This wasn't aimed at you, it was aimed at Islam. This is the religion and faith forum, i think you got lost.
edit on 22-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 22 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Evolution doesn't occur due to random events, infact it occurs due to the complete opposite of random


I think that you're confusing evolution with natural selection. The root of evolution is random change, natural selection is the non-random component which determines if the random change is beneficial to survival. Without randomness, nothing would change, and there would be nothing for natural selection to select for.


Well you'd be incorrect to think that....

While random elements such as mutations-genetic variation are part of evolution, it's guided and moulded by natural selection which is in-turn acting on that variation in a very non-random way making the overall process the complete opposite of random.

This argument is often used as a signifier for someone who doesn't understand evolution very well....



posted on Sep, 22 2012 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Is there any spiritual teaching in the Koran?
Dont eat pork is not a spiritual teaching.
72 virgins for the jihadists who dies while
trying to kill infidels, is not a spiritual teaching.


The Gospels of Jesus are a spiritual teaching of
self sacrifice.

Lest you be like a child you cannot enter the Kingdom of
heaven is a spiritual teaching.


None of the below are spiritual teachings.
They are pagan ritual rules.

Thirty Shariah Laws That Are Bad For All Societies

More detailed information on each one plus the references these are from at the link

1. The mosque and state are not separate.
2. Jihad may be waged against injustice or an unjust nation, as Islam defines the terms.
3. Jihad may be waged to spread Islam and force conversions – a holy war.
4. A captive in jihad may be executed, enslaved, ransomed for money, exchanged for other prisoners, or released freely.
5. A woman captive of jihad may be forced to have to sex with her captors (now owners).
6. Property can be destroyed or confiscated during jihad.
7. Jihad may be waged to collect spoils.
8. A second-class submission tax, called the jizyah, must be imposed on Jews and Christians (and other religious minorities) living in Islamic countries.
9. Slavery is allowed.
10. A male owner may have sex with his slave-women, even prepubescent slave-girls.
11. Slaves may be beaten.
12. Apostasy laws, including imprisonment or execution, may be imposed on anyone who leaves Islam (an apostate).
13. Blasphemy laws, including imprisonment or execution, may be imposed on critics of Islam or Muhammad.
14. Drinkers and gamblers may be flogged.
15. An injured plaintiff (a private citizen) has the options of forgiving or exacting legal and literal revenge – physical eye for physical eye.
16. The hand of a male or female thief may be cut off.
17. A highway robber may be crucified or his alternate hand and foot cut off.
18. Homosexuals may be imprisoned, flogged, or executed.
19. Fornicators may be flogged.
20. Adulterers may be stoned to death.
21. False accusers of sexual crimes may be flogged eighty times.
22. A woman inherits half what a man does.
23. A woman’s testimony in a court of law counts half of a man’s testimony, since she might “forget.”
24. A man may legally and irrevocably divorce his wife, outside of a court of law, by correctly pronouncing three times “you are divorced.”
25. A wife may remarry her ex-husband if and only if she marries another man, has sex with him, and then this second man divorces her.
26. Husbands may hit their wives.
27. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.
28. A man may simply get rid of one of his “undesirable” wives.
29. A mature man may marry a prepubescent girl.
30. A woman must wear a head covering and maybe a facial veil, according to sound traditions and authoritative classical law.

www.jihadwatch.org...



posted on Sep, 22 2012 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by WakeUpNowSnap
 



Is there any spiritual teaching in the Koran?
Dont eat pork is not a spiritual teaching.
72 virgins for the jihadists who dies while
trying to kill infidels, is not a spiritual teaching.


The Gospels of Jesus are a spiritual teaching of
self sacrifice.

Lest you be like a child you cannot enter the Kingdom of
heaven is a spiritual teaching.


None of the below are spiritual teachings.
They are pagan ritual rules.


I'm not arguing what Islam teaches is right, i know all about Sharia law. The fellow i was replying to in my previous post is making the assumption that ascension means flying up into space What i am saying is muslim put a man above Messiah and esteem him above he comes from above who is greater than all, this is where they are in error, by placing a man above the King of Israel.



posted on Sep, 22 2012 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by Prezbo369

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Evolution doesn't occur due to random events, infact it occurs due to the complete opposite of random


I think that you're confusing evolution with natural selection. The root of evolution is random change, natural selection is the non-random component which determines if the random change is beneficial to survival. Without randomness, nothing would change, and there would be nothing for natural selection to select for.


Well you'd be incorrect to think that....

While random elements such as mutations-genetic variation are part of evolution, it's guided and moulded by natural selection which is in-turn acting on that variation in a very non-random way making the overall process the complete opposite of random.

This argument is often used as a signifier for someone who doesn't understand evolution very well....


Okay, explain this to me.

You: "Evolution doesn't occur due to random events"

Me: "The root of evolution is random change"

You: "While random elements such as mutations-genetic variation are part of evolution"

Your statement is a repeat of mine, and yet you claim I "don't understand evolution very well"?

Let's remove said randomness from the equation -- do you still think that evolution would happen? What does natural selection have to operate on, if everything is always the same?

You also seem to be granting natural selection some intelligent attributes that are invalid. Natural selection is a process, it doesn't "guide and mould" anything -- it is simply the description of the fact that those random genetic changes which are beneficial to producing offspring are more likely to be passed on to said offspring, and, depending on how things go, expand throughout the species in subsequent generations.

Ultimately, though, it's still a random process -- whether on the front end, in genetic mutation, or on the back end, where beneficial change doesn't get passed on because the holder of that positive DNA gets hit by a bus at age ten.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by adjensen
 


To anyone with the above mentality, mostly to OP, by the way i am new, so forgive me, i'l learn fast.


Because the Messiah is the King of Kings, he came from above and so he is above all else and he bears the Name Above All Names, this includes Muhammad, however in islam they revere Muhammad over Jesus and call him the "Messenger of Allah" which is a blatant finger pointed at Jesus calling him a liar when he is the Messenger, the Angel of the Lord, the physical incarnation of our God manifested. The contradictions in the Quran point at it clearly being a forgery and a poor one at that and it takes someone with eyes to see to know it. Just like how the Quran says Allah has no partner, but Muhammad says for people to worship himself because he is their Lord and if Allah has no "partner" then how is Muhammad his Messenger when Muhammads words claim he is the "Angel of the Lord"? The hebrew word for angel translates as "messenger". It takes a person who reads both books to see the lies Muhammad claims. No lie can remain hidden from the Spirit of Truth.
edit on 19-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)


i dont know from where you got your "facts"
Muhammad (pbuh)never demanded worship.
And ya angel is messenger but all prophets are giving the same message, so can be called messenger.
N do you deny Adam, Noah,Abraham, Moses (pbu them) as messengers?
Jews rejected Jesus(pbuh) as they thought they already have a good enough way to follow.
N the trend continues..



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by DerepentLEstranger
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 





It's a well known fact in Islam that Muhammad ascended to heaven and decended, but this claim is a bold lie ...


actually, he may have.

it is a known truism of the occult that there are...

"susceptible types"...

who on achieving astral projection...

well... lets say they go overboard and think they're messengers of the most high and such like,
it's the same with initiation experiences and the messiah complex.

or are we to understand that all these folks who claim they've been to heaven or hell and bring a message from jesus are fakes too?
edit on 18-9-2012 by DerepentLEstranger because: fixed quote


Let's talk a little bit about Mohammed's "journeys". Have you ever heard the story of when Mohammed flew to Jerusalem on Al-Buraq? Apparently it was not a dream, but it actually happened. The story goes like this, Mohammed was presented with Al-Buraq (for the purpose of semantics, I will say donkey), On this donkey, he apparently flew to Jerusalem, tied it to a ring in the wall that is usually reserved for prophets, He then walked into the temple at Jerusalem and announced his prophethood to the Jews who accepted his prophethood. Then he flew away.

What is the problem with this story? The temple he apparently flew to had been destroyed 500 years earlier. There could be no temple to enter, and the ring he apparently tied his donkey to never existed at any time.

Mohammed made up stories. People had to believe it or else. Those who disputed him surprisingly found themselves dead.

Can you see how he was trying to convince people of his messiahship in imitation of Jesus? Mohammed says all prophets of the Bible testified of him. Yet every prophet in the Bible testified of several things, they prophesied of the destruction of Jerusalem, they prophesied of the dispersion of the Jews who would one day come back to the nation of Israel and they prophesied of the coming messiah. In an effort to convince people, Mohammed ripped off stories from the Bible that he didn't get right.

Several instances:
He says Haman was a vizier under Pharaoh
He says the red heifer of Moses was yellow
He says Noah's son was lost in the flood
He says Alexander the Great travelled until he came to the place where the sun sets in a murky pool.
He said the palm trees cried and food spoke to him.
He said the Jews say Ezra is the messiah

So you can see from just these examples that the man was a nut case. He was a raging megalomaniac that raped a little girl, raped captive women, killed anyone who disagreed with him and destroyed many villages. He convinced his adopted son to give him his wife. Then made adoption illegal.

Why is there anything about this man that makes him rasoulallah, the one to be emulated. Why do people worship this man?

BTW, he said Adam was 90 feet tall yet Eve was normal size and a crow taught Cain how to bury Abel. You would think if he were a true prophet, at least he would have known correctly about Haman. But then again, he said Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the sister of Aaron, the brother of Moses, but yet not the sister of Moses. That simple confusion found its way into the Quran. Amazing.

He said that if he ever says an untrue prophecy that allah would cut his aorta. Interestingly enough, he was poisoned by a Jewish woman whose family he just slaughtered. He said his aorta was cut....what poetic justice. He died in Aisha's bed. He destroyed her life, no one should feel sorry for this man and no one should emulate him. He was not worthy of praise as he said his name means.

you seem to be drinking a lot of info from places you go to seek validation for your thick opinions.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Sure Muhammad says worship me, it's right there in the Quran.



This is the same fellow who said he flew to the temple in Jerusalem, about 580 years after it was destroyed
.Oh sure we know Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Shem, Moses etc. were all prophets, but Muhammad is nowhere in either biblical books at all. Infact he doesn't show up till some 600 years later preaching a different message than the one Yeshua and all the prophets before him were preaching so obviously something changed between them and him. Messiah didn't preach to go raping, pillaging and murdering across the M.E. and committing adultery, stealing and coveting what belonged to others. Muhammad broke every one of the 10 commandments every prophet before him and even Yeshua himself kept. So how is it God establishes a certain message across the Millenia, and then all of a sudden changes it when this one arab fellow hits the seen? God is unchanging, he never changes, so obviously somoene else made the change other than He.
edit on 23-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Muhammad(pbuh) did not preach any message contrary to previous prophets, i.e. "worship One God"
he did preach much longer than Jesus(pbuh) and had to deal with matters of state as statesman, about defense as a general, in all a leader in many senses.
Jesus(pbuh) would also kill n rule to uphold justice after the 2nd coming.
But what i see is you are hell bent to push n prove billions are in error

well just to be just. Could you just acknowledge that billions on the christian side could be wrong too??



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
you seem to be drinking a lot of info from places you go to seek validation for your thick opinions.


What is that supposed to mean? That doesn't even make any sense.
edit on 23-9-2012 by adjensen because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


just meant that the things said were taken from a source which is as much in love with islam as water would mix with oil(p.s-no emulsifiers)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by logical7
 


Still not making a lot of sense, sorry -- am I correct in assuming that your native tongue is not English?

What I gather is that you're dismissing Lonewolf's arguments because they are from a source which is critical of Islam, no?



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


you could say that..
n ya english is not my native language.
What i exactly meant is he is going to anti-islamic sites to find about islam.
Its like going to the Jews who rejected the messiah to learn about how was Jesus.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
What i exactly meant is he is going to anti-islamic sites to find about islam.
Its like going to the Jews who rejected the messiah to learn about how was Jesus.


Well, that's a valid complaint, but that's pretty much how these things go. Most of the errors that people make as regards Christianity are a result of getting information from atheist web sites, so it's just something we have to deal with -- regardless of its source, if you see something that is invalid, present what you consider to be a valid argument.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Muhammad(pbuh) did not preach any message contrary to previous prophets, i.e. "worship One God"
he did preach much longer than Jesus(pbuh) and had to deal with matters of state as statesman, about defense as a general, in all a leader in many senses.
Jesus(pbuh) would also kill n rule to uphold justice after the 2nd coming.
But what i see is you are hell bent to push n prove billions are in error

well just to be just. Could you just acknowledge that billions on the christian side could be wrong too??


Really, so all that raping and pillaging, and converting by the sword and making war, walking around the Kaaba 7 times for remission of sins, kissing, touching praying to and caressing the blackstone for forgiveness of sins was condoned by Yeshua and all the apostles and prophets? Not.Bloody. Likely. Neither would they condone putting Muhammad above Yeshua as He who comes from above is greater than all.

John 3:31-36 [John the Baptist speaking]

31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:12-13 [Yeshua speaking]

12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

And yet you folks follow after Muhammad and Sharia law, and Sharia contradicts literally everything Messiah taught. You claim you believe in Yeshua but you don't follow him you follow Muhammad, claiming our scriptures are mangled yet you have no proof and can find no proof, and then you believe scriptures that came along over 620 years after the fact that have no connection to even one of our apostles who were his very own disciples. Even the Hebrew bible backs up the New Testament, what is in one book is in the other, they stand together.

Do you not recognize that Yeshua is King? Why do you put another above the King Himself? You have an entire book exalting Muhammad, and a few vague things supposedly from Yeshua, oh he was just a good man, The End. None of that strikes you as funny that muslim exalt Muhammad over Yeshua? By Muhammad claiming he ascended and descended to heaven he is saying he is Messiah, because that is what we see when we compare your book to ours.
edit on 23-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


my friend, you can save your breath about what you know about Muhammad(pbuh)
lets talk about Yeshua(pbuh), i would be more than happy to take him as my king. But not in the sense you mean.
N try and read the verses by replacing "He" with "he"
edit on 23-9-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)





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