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Did Muhammad ascend to heaven and descend, Messiah Jesus refutes this.

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posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:32 PM
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It's a well known fact in Islam that Muhammad ascended to heaven and decended, but this claim is a bold lie exposed Messiah Himself.

A question is posed in the book of Proverbs (OT), that Messiah Jesus (Yeshua) answers in the book of John (NT). Upon this question hinges the faith of many muslim who should know this and do not and because they do not they blindly follow after a liar speaking serpent language to decieve them.

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Whose hands have gathered up the wind?
Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and what is the name of his son?
Surely you know!

John 3:13

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. [spoken by Jesus]

This also exposes the lie of Islam that God has no Son.



Quran(18:4-6).

Those who believe that Allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood


Jews say that Ezra is the son of Allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. May Allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides Allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31).


Source

In Christianity, particularly prosetant christianity we believe not just that Jesus is the "Son of God" but that he is God himself and there is plenty of evidence from the Torah/Tenach backing up these claims, predating the New Testament, i do not have the room to put the hundreds of verses in this post, but i will give a sample of such verses where both the Old Testament and New Testament bear witness to this.

Isaiah 44:6-8

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

7 And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”

We find this verse in the prophetic book of Revelation, where Jesus says this very thing himself.

Revelation 1:9-18

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


The King of Israel is Yahweh, the King of Israel is Yeshua (Jesus). They are the one and the same, the First and the Last and besides Him there is no God.





posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:38 PM
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Good word.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


If that's your desire, might I suggest refraining from faith-based forums and threads.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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Ah the "My religion is more right" trick... an oldest trick in the old middle east.
edit on 9/17/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:50 PM
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Huh, so you are saying that the monotheistic God is none other than Jesus Christ? I thought he was the son of the monotheistic God? How can he be both?



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


If that's your desire, might I suggest refraining from faith-based forums and threads.


Why should I do that?

This website's motto is "Deny Ignorance"

Don't shoot the messenger...

ETA: In my experience it's this forum (religion/faith) that promotes the most ignorance, if ATS truly wanted to deny ignorance they would remove this forum
edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by luciddream
Ah the "My religion is more right" trick... an oldest trick in the old middle east.
edit on 9/17/2012 by luciddream because: (no reason given)


That's all well and good, but this not only applies to believers of Islam on not just a theological level.

There is a logical argument to be made based on the fact the Quran recognizes the authority of the Torah and bible, in fact even calling on them to ask "the people of the book" when they have questions about their own holy book.

Muhammad himself studied with Jewish rabbis of the time, it's just funny that when there is a biblical or Torah based criticism of Islam that than its because the two books have been flawed...

The bible itself warns against things like what Muhammad claims happened to him, in Galatians it states :


But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!


So of course religions like Islam and Mormons are all okay with the bible until they see verses like that, and than its oh no they are flawed.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by raiders247
 


I totally agree. To many people focused on the history of their sky wizard/invisible friend to focus on whats going on right here right now. Honestly, most people go off the reading of a book thats is centuries old and contradicts itself repeatedly. I.E. New Testament vs. Old Testament. But I guess the fear of their own eventual death scares them so much, they have to believe in an afterlife. The thought of death being the end of it all harms their egos I guess



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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How could Jesus refute that Mohamad didnt decend from heaven when Mohammad was born 500 years after Jesus supposedly lived?
To be fair to Muslims at least we know that Mohammad did realy exist in the historical record.theres no refernce to Jesus in the historical record and no evidence he ever existed.

But neither were Gods, except in fairytales...........



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by auraelium
 


Exactly. Mohammad has a massive body count.

Where's Jesus' body count. Ah, he didn't kill anyone you say?

Then how will we ever know he existed.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


If that's your desire, might I suggest refraining from faith-based forums and threads.


Why should I do that?

This website's motto is "Deny Ignorance"

Don't shoot the messenger...

ETA: In my experience it's this forum (religion/faith) that promotes the most ignorance, if ATS truly wanted to deny ignorance they would remove this forum
edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)


Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 


"Fear is the beginning of knowledge"

No.. No, that's just wrong.

And isn't knowledge supposed to be a big no-no in Christianity (Evil Talking Snake 1:23)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 


This is what I mean by ignorance
You cant defend your fantasy with quotes from a Dr. Suess book, why is your Bible given any more credence?

I don't fear the lord, there is no lord, and in the most minuscule chance that one does exist, surely it would be nothing like the god of any of this worlds hypocritical religions.
edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)
edit on 9/17/2012 by raiders247 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:22 PM
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You both just made my point.
Thank you.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by ThinkingCap
reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 


"Fear is the beginning of knowledge"

No.. No, that's just wrong.

And isn't knowledge supposed to be a big no-no in Christianity (Evil Talking Snake 1:23)


Uh no.
James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by raiders247
 


Do what you want. I myself hate water chestnuts, but I don't gorge myself on them then complain about having to eat them.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by auraelium
How could Jesus refute that Mohamad didnt decend from heaven when Mohammad was born 500 years after Jesus supposedly lived?
To be fair to Muslims at least we know that Mohammad did realy exist in the historical record.theres no refernce to Jesus in the historical record and no evidence he ever existed.

But neither were Gods, except in fairytales...........


1st century Jewish historian Josephus writes:

"When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified. . . ."

Josephus, Antiquities 18.64. Josephus in Ten Volumes, vol. 9, Jewish Antiquities, Loeb Classical Library Louis H. Feldman, trans. (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1981).



Tacitus, considered the greatest Roman historian reports:

"Nero fastened the guilt [of the burning of Rome] and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus."

Tacitus, Annals 15.44 (c. A.D. 115).


The 'extreme penalty' being crucifixion. In the first century B.C., Cicero calls it 'the most horrendous torture.')

Lucian of Samosata, the Greek satirist, writes:

"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day-the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account."

Lucian of Samosata, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 (c. mid-second century).



The Talmud reports that:

"on the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged."(12)- Yeshu is Joshua in Hebrew. The equivalent in Greek is lesous (13) or Jesus. Being hung on a tree was used to describe crucifixion in antiquity.(14)

12. Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a (probably late second century). It should be noted that Jewish writings of antiquity never denied the existence, miracles, and execution of Jesus. See John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus, 3 vols. (New York: Doubleday, 1991-2001), 1:96-97.

13. Pronounced "ee-ay-soos."

14. Livy 1:26:6ff; Luke 23:39; Galatians 3:13.


And here is your evidence that Jesus resurrected from the dead from the biggest expert on it today


CE4 research proves that Jesus still lives now and has authority over all
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edit on 17-9-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by raiders247
 


Do what you want. I myself hate water chestnuts, but I don't gorge myself on them then complain about having to eat them.


That's likely because you don't get a thrill out of complaining



Originally posted by raiders247
In my experience it's this forum (religion/faith) that promotes the most ignorance, if ATS truly wanted to deny ignorance they would remove this forum


The Religion forum is currently the #9 ranked forum on ATS, in terms of popularity, so I don't think that they're likely to remove it any time soon. If you don't like it, don't visit it, and then it's removed, as far as you're concerned.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by raiders247
Who cares?

What good does it do to ponder the claims of historical science fiction?

We should debate facts not hearsay... just my 2 cents


If you don't believe why are you here? A real atheist wouldn;t set foot in a forum if he "disbelieved" the things spoken of in.

Just sayin.





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