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NEWS: 17 U.S Reservists Arrested In Iraq. U.S Military Deny Arrests.

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posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by longbow


Race car drivers are paid to drive fast and risk their lives. Do you think any of them would get into a car if they were told to drive without any brakes?


That's not good analogy, they have the weapons to defend themselves or not? I know they would like to have 4 abrams 2 helicopters, and predator UAV for escort, but you cannot always have everything you want.



Its easy for all you keyboard warriors to talk tough but youre all dumb if you would blindly obey any order no matter how stupid, thats brainwashing IMO.


For many slodiers the actions like Omaha Beach were also stupid and suicidal misions.



Following orders is not always the best thing to do.
After all the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were just following orders right?


Don't mix violating POW rights with this please.
@@:


Sorry I can't do that. If those soldiers would have disobeyed the order to torture those POW's. America would not be in the state of shame we are in today.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 01:58 PM
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A lot of these posts sound like the same stuff that
went on during and after any war you can name - including "the big one".
People seem to have a hard time facing facts and admitting the truth. We did
not win our freedom and achieve what we have for ourselves, and yes, the
world by sitting around the fire wishing people would just "be nice to one
another" and just leave us alone.

Freedom is not free. Do any of you whining libs actually believe that the
liberties and prosperity we enjoy today simply exist and persist with no
associated cost? I guess you leave your doors unlocked since you believe
there certainly are no bad people around who would dare take what you have
earned simply because - like you apparently - they feel that they are owed
it? I have worked for what I have and I protect it. I have no intention of
just sitting back until someone walks in my unlocked door.

The socialist democrats are too far removed from reality to understand the
value of what we have. That happens when you are given everything. You
probably believe eggs come from the grocery store, everyone lives happily
ever after, life is fair and we live in a Democracy.

You all seem to hold the UN above our own freely elected government - until
it comes to actually taking action to enforce the resolutions cranked out by
that debating society.

Imagine there is a malicious criminal in the neighborhood. He has made it
clear through words and deeds that he is coming for you and your neighbors.
When he finds you he will rape, pillage and burn you and your children.
Which will you choose:

Send your mom out to apologize for upsetting him and ask him
nicely to leave you alone (diplomatic approach)
Wait until he walks in (do nothing)
Lock your door (border security)
Call the police (UN)
�Ask your neighbors to help you stop him (build a coalition)
Go out, hunt him down and stop him by yourself - even if all the
neighbors refuse to help just want to ignore him (preemptive strike)




Seems to me a lot of you prefer option #1 or #2. Some favor #3 others #4.
Only #5 and #6 will be effective. It is messy, it is dangerous, it draws
unrelenting criticism from the wilting flowers who just want to be left
alone, it is not what anyone truly prefers - but it is the only way to stop
the criminal.

Bottom line? It is not a choice - it is a matter of survival. It is not
about oil, or Halliburton or Kerry promising to make the lame walk. It is
about your very life. If you are willing to trade your freedom for security
then you deserve neither.

Lets get it straight - Iraq is not "bushes(sic) war". It is a key element of
the fight against irrational yet deadly serious terrorism - It is a fight for the very survival of
civilization. I for one have no intention of wasting the sacrifice of the
millions of Americans to whom we owe our freedom. Nor do I intend to return
to the 4th century without an all-out fight.



U.S. out of the U.N.
U.N. out of the U.S.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 02:01 PM
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So if you were under Lt. William Calley's command in Vietnam you would have said "YES SIR" ?



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by rsaunders


Freedom is not free. �


Oh. So American freedom depends on invading Arabia, 8,000 or so miles, and ocean and a continent away from our country?

Uh-huh. Tell us another nice bedtime story for children.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 06:06 PM
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rsaunders

Hummm..............can you enlighten us please on what the mission in Iraq is all about, it seems that you are a littler bit confused, see Iraq was a "liberation" of the Iraqi people from a "brutal" dictator.

Now again can you enlighten us on the mission in Iraq and why their liberation is going to make me more free?

Do you remember �bin-laden�?

Do you remember 9/11?

Now can you again enlighten me about the mission in Iraq. Please.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
rsaunders

Hummm..............can you enlighten us please on what the mission in Iraq is all about, it seems that you are a littler bit confused, see Iraq was a "liberation" of the Iraqi people from a "brutal" dictator.


Before that, it was to make sure Iraq complied with UN weapons inspections.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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With all the attacks on undefended convoys, it's no wonder they disobeyed. Add the deadlined vehicles and I don't blame them one bit.


With the current level of threat in the area, those responsible for sending out a crippled convoy with no escort should come under scrutiny instead of the troops that refused. That is just poor leadership IMHO.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by deevee
So if you were under Lt. William Calley's command in Vietnam you would have said "YES SIR" ?

Yes, sir. And if you, Ms. Deevee, were there and put yourself above the rest of us by refusing the order - you had better been sleeping with with 'one eye open' and not getting caught out front during the next fire fight.

By the way is that "righter" as in more correct or simply an unconscious way telling everyone that you are indeed no writer?



Originally posted by taibunsuu

Oh. So American freedom depends on invading Arabia, 8,000 or so miles, and ocean and a continent away from our country?

Uh-huh. Tell us another nice bedtime story for children.


I seriously doubt you have any children but I'll leave the bedtime stories to you and your ilk. Most intelligent adults see right through the "John - John" fairy tale series.


Originally posted by marg6043

Hummm..............can you enlighten us please on what the mission in Iraq is all about, it seems that you are a littler bit confused, see Iraq was a "liberation" of the Iraqi people from a "brutal" dictator.


We'll it sure is nice to see you at least understand some of the big simple pieces.


Originally posted by marg6043
Now again can you enlighten us on the mission in Iraq and why their liberation is going to make me more free?


Do you expect to be 'more free'? It is obviously beyond your mental capacity to see past the nose on your face. No one is dying to increase your freedom. The challenge - from within and without - is simply preserving as much of our way of life as possible.

You are hopelessly unable to grasp the larger picture regarding terrorism. So, how about this simple analogy?

Think of the terrorists as hornets. You could keep your doors and windows closed and kill them when you see them around the door - but sooner or later some will get in and hit you. You should get up off your couch, go destroy their nest and be rid of them. But in your case you are happier hoping nothing happens and then suing the window screen manufacturer after you get stung. Does that help?

No really, you are apparently ignorant of the origins or dynamics behind the terrorist situation today. But as Thomas Sowell recent said "Emotions neither prove nor disprove facts. There was a time when any rational adult understood this. But years of dumbed-down education and emphasis on how people "feel" have left too many people unable to see through this media gimmick." www.townhall.com...

Obviously you prefer poll-following weasels to leaders. You have been duped into believing a crumb may fall from their table and land on your plate. As for me, my eyes and mind are open. I am not beholding to election year promises or expediency.

'nuff said -

I'm afraid, and I do mean afraid, that you do not and will not 'get it'. What really �burns me up� is that I am forced to support people like you who are too good to get their hands dirty when a job must be done.

My advice to you? If you don't have something constructive to add, stay out of the way. And don't come running when the s**t hits the fan.

By the way MARGE6043 - you emoticon use really enhances your credibility.



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 08:30 PM
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rsaunders,

Will all your "war fare" knowledge I wonder what are you doing behind your computer and not in Iraq fighting and killing Iraqis for "your freedom" my husband served 22 years how many have you. He served his country very well, how about you. My husband call�s people like you �analyst� you plan wars you execute wars and you fight wars and then you win wars but without putting your foot in the front lines.

And again I see the reality of this so call bushes "war" but in your case you obviously can no see pass your nose.


My credibility is 22 years as a Marine wife and few "conflicts" in between.

Where is your credibility?

[edit on 16-10-2004 by marg6043]

[edit on 16-10-2004 by marg6043]



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 09:53 PM
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MARG6043 -

I appreciate the commitment of your husband, as do most Americans whether they even realize it. He, and by extension you, obviously understand the power of loyalty, trust and conviction. Mistakes are made, if nothing else our enemies see to that.

I would be interested to hear your husband�s opinion regarding how our country has changed over those 22 years.

However, I respectfully disagree with your characterization of this conflict as bushes war. Times are different. We are not fighting a war where we can sit down and negotiate.

Thank you again to your husband and to you for your willingness to endure the hardships associated with a life of service.

Friend and Servant
R. SAUNDERS

"Distrust and caution are the parents of security."



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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Something that may help everyone understand what we are doing in Iraq:

"Like so many people who have been sheltered from the harsh realities of life and not forced to stand on their own two feet, Western Europeans have been able to indulge themselves in illusions. The most unrealistic of these illusions has been that we can just talk our way out of international threats with "negotiations," treaties and UN resolutions." - Thomas Sowell

read the entire article here:
www.townhall.com...



posted on Oct, 16 2004 @ 10:02 PM
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saunders,

I appreciated your honesty and thanks, my husband�s opinions are his own we disagree in many things, and the president of the US is still his commander in Chief because he works for the government still, he will never talk badly about the president and he is still a die-hard Marine after five years of retirement.



posted on Oct, 17 2004 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Even my husband thinks that what is going on in Iraq, must be pretty bad to drive these people into becoming mutiny, but like some has said they are not active military soldiers they were activated because the conflict in Iraq, usually these people take over the man power in the military bases but now they are in the front lines so that tell you� people that have never been in a war� how bad things are right now not only here with shortage of personnel but in Iraq.

I agree with anybody that said that this war does not deserve the life of any fo our military personnel.

For those that think they are cowards, I think they are courageous into voicing the realities of a poor plan of after-invasion in Iraq.


[edit on 16-10-2004 by marg6043]










I am using what "marg" posted above to introduce someting that I feel everyone should see and listen to.

Seymour Hersh spoke at Berkeley about,..... George Bush, Neocons, Iraqi "non-combatants (rubbed out for "BODY COUNT" ), and our press/ media.

I hope that the "URL" works.

Seymour Hersh spoke at Berkeley hear what he said on Real Video file here.

webcast.berkeley.edu...

[edit on 17-10-2004 by nanna_of_6]



posted on Oct, 17 2004 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
refuse to fight when needed, because it is too dangerous? We don't need you. Get the hell out and don't let the door hit 'ya on the way.

I don' tthink that they are stating that they should not be punished. They seemed to have decided that this particular assignment was stupidly dangerous, more so than all their other assignements, and, being well aware of the dangers involved, still decided to disobey orders and risk almost certain courts martial. I beleive that back in teh Vietnam era they used to use a different method when an officer was making them do something stupid. Something that involved a hand grenade or a well placed bullet? Looks like these guys decided to give their officer a break.

[qyuote]longbow
they are soldiers - MERCENARIES -paid for risking their lives, period
Thats pretty god damned stupid. These people are volunteers. You think that they shouldn't be paid? Or that only draftees aren't mercenaries? They're citizen-soldiers, not mercenaries flocking to whatever flag is paying better.


rsaunders
The only thing troops have to count on in combat is the support of their fellow soldiers

It was contaiminated fuel that couldn't be used (else the vehicles using it would break down, like, oh, i dunno, a helicopter crashing out of the sky without having been fired upon). It had already been brought to its supply point, where it was rejected.

I had read n the paper today that some of them have already been knocked down from sgt to specialist. Light punishment really, considering that they probably (no matter how 'honest' their intentions were) should've been dishon. discharged and but in jail for a few years.

A major problem with this entire story is that there are only two sources of info, the government, which has only just begun to investigate, and the relatives of the soldiers, who are giving conflicting reports. One said the fuel was contaminated with diesel, another water. Some said they didn't have air support, another said they told them they 'didn't even have any guns'.

longbow
are PAID for doing their jobs,

Everyone gets paid for doing their jobs. That doesn't make these or any other US soldiers mercenaries. These guys are fighting for their homeland, they're not fighting for a foreign country just to receive pay. They aren't going to switch sides if the enemy offers a bigger paycheck. US soldiers are loyal, mercenaries are not. To refer to US soldiers as mercs merely because they aren't being forced to fight is absurd, it makes the word mercenary have no meanig at all.

I'm sure the commanders had good reason why to give them no escort.

Probably because of a recto-cranial inversion.

shadow266
Although the Army serves to protect and defend democracy, it does not practice it.

Nice, I like that. By the way, please do not try to be reasonable when posting here. Its bad form.....

rsaunders
A lot of these posts sound like the same stuff that
went on during and after any war you can name - including "the big one".

Major combat operations are over. The war proper is over. Putting down the resistance is the major preoccupation now. These guys were told to do something stupid. SOmething stupid and for no particular reason. Somethign stupid, for no particular reason and without proper cover. If the job wasn't important enough to give quartermasters an escort, then it wasn't important enough for them to risk their lives over. The fuel was dead. Useless. No tanks or 'copters are going to stop mid battle because of this. These guys have been in iraq for 9 months. Calling them cowards because they didn't listen to a stupid and reckless officer is inappropriate.

Freedom is not free

"Your way right away!" "I'm lovin' it" "Don't leave home without it". Any other slogans you are particularly fond of?

If Geo. Washington had ordered one of his Continetal Army supply clerks to bring a bail of hay from Pennsylvania to Long Island when he had a gimp leg and told him he couldn't even get some cavalry to scout out and escort him, well, ol Geo. would've been an idiot and that clerk would've been smart to give him the one finger salute. Soldiers who die for no reason to accomplish nothing except satisfy some idiot officer tend to do two things. One is decrease the number of soldiers, and the other is to increase the ration of idiot officers to good soldiers.

The socialist democrats are too far removed from reality to understand the
value of what we have

These men weren't socialists nor democrats. They're soldiers in the US Army. Their opinion is a little more important than mine or yours.



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