NATO air strike kills eight Afghan women

Originally posted by GLaDOS

Originally posted by 369821
These things happen. Its just a fact of war. Too bad. Hope they were right with whatever God they prayed to.

That doesn't seem to be the case when American citizens die. Then it is a big deal.

To wit: the big deal being made out of the death of 4 Americans in the Libyan consulate. I don't the US warmongers saying that these killings were just an act of war. To them it is some heinous crime against America.

A LOT of Americans have a double standard on killing; when it is the US killing innocents abroad, it is just collateral damage, a fact of war, or -- at best -- a tragedy. But god forbid someone kill and American, because we're an exceptional and god-fearing people who never should be killed.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by GLaDOS

 

Well actually ISAF was welcomed by many Afghani's when they were first deployed to secure Kabul and the surrounding region from The Taliban in accordance with UN Security Resolution 1386.

Of course they've screwed up a bit since then but you seem to be implying that NATO invaded Afghanistan and that is simply incorrect.

I can not begin to excuse the killing of these eight women - but I'd accept your outrage with a bit more credibility if you expressed the same level of disgust for the fifteen people who were recently beheaded by The Taliban for simply attending a party.

Yes, these deaths seem to be as a result of some sort of criminal negligence and these mistakes happen far too frequently - as does the brutal and extreme treatment of those who refuse to live by the repressive dictates of The Taliban.

It seems to me that you only take the moral high ground when it suits your personal agenda to do so.

The difference is, people in the US aren't responsible for what the Taliban do. We are responsible for what US/NATO forces do. And generally it has been the case that most countries stay out of other countries' business. What is done internally in a country is usually considered that country's business. But when a foreign power goes into another country and starts killing innocent people willy nilly, then it is an issue of international law.

Your argument about people's personal agendas is just so specious. Critics of US military war aggression always get called out on their supposed agendas by defenders of the US government. No doubt good Germans during WWII did the same thing when people criticized what the Nazis were doing.

And even you can't defend this action by the US, so you have it make an ad hominem attack against the agenda of critics of this attack. What a pathetic argument from the gutter. People like you should be ashamed, but you have no moral compass. Sad and disgusting.

Originally posted by k21968
reply to post by GLaDOS

 

My first thought is, these taliban jerks use women and children all the time to pull of their dirty work. My husband lived amongst them for 15 months and could attest to the fact that the culture puts women and children lower than animals. They will not hesitate to put women in a place they know NATO will strike to use it as propoganda.

He saw first hand, a mentally disabled woman (he said he thought she had downs syndrome) walk into a crowded market and blow the place up. Later it was determined she was suited up with a suicide vest and was detonated by a remote using a cell phone.

My second thought is, do you not remember how many INNOCENT men and women were MURDERED on 9/11? Children were on those airplanes. So, not to sound callous, but war is hell.

This is sensationalistic media at its best. Do not fall into the "the US is killing innocent men and women" when I can almost guarentee you that the taliban are putting the women and children in these places for this purpose.

Who are the losers pissing on corpses and taking videos of it? Oh, yeah, that would be the American soldiers like your husband. Frankly, I don't care what any US soldiers involved in that war have to say. It's an illegal, undeclared war in which the US is committing war crimes on a regular basis. All US soldiers involved with it are war criminals.

Originally posted by popcornmafia
I dont know what to say oops>?

Tragic event really hope they had their peace with God

edit on 16-9-2012 by popcornmafia because: (no reason given)

"Oops" he says. Funny stuff.

Is it any wonder that the world hates the American Government and many of its people?

"Oops" he says. Shame.

reply to post by MrInquisitive

The difference is, people in the US aren't responsible for what the Taliban do. We are responsible for what US/NATO forces do.

I'm British - I'm not really that concerned about the USA - people in glass houses and all that.

And generally it has been the case that most countries stay out of other countries' business. What is done internally in a country is usually considered that country's business

What version of human history have you been reading?
Since time immorial nations have been interfering in other nations business, hence Empires and subjugated nations etc - may not be very 'nice' but it's an undeniable fact.

But when a foreign power goes into another country and starts killing innocent people willy nilly, then it is an issue of international law.

Yeah, but it's hardly as if any of the ISAF forces in Afghanistan are killing civilians 'willy nilly'.
Yes, there have been far too many innocent civilians killed and it's totally unacceptable - I think I made my feelings on that pretty clear - seems like you only took notice of the parts of my posts that suited you.

Your argument about people's personal agendas is just so specious.

Why?
Where was your moral outrage at the beheading of fifteen people by The Taliban simply for attending a party contrary to their dictates?
Where is your indignation for the millions of women who are treat as second class citizens and abused by The Taliban and denied basic human rights?
Where is your concern for the vast majority of the Afghanistan people who lived a dreadful and pityful existence under The Taliban and were genuinely in fear of their lives?

That's right, you have none as you believe it's none of your business and much prefer to bury your head in the sand.

Critics of US military war aggression always get called out on their supposed agendas by defenders of the US government.

I try to understand and look at all sides of an arguement - sure they deserve some criticism but some of it seems way over the top to me.
And maybe it's because lots of those so called critics clearly do have their own personal agendas.

No doubt good Germans during WWII did the same thing when people criticized what the Nazis - you assume the moral high were doing.

You seem remarkably similar to all the appeasers who turned a blind eye or refused to accept the excesses of the Nazi's and claimed it was nothing to do with them - look where that got them!

And even you can't defend this action by the US,

Err.....I haven't please show me where I have.

so you have it make an ad hominem attack against the agenda of critics of this attack.

Again, please show me where anything has been an 'ad hominem attack' against anyone.

What a pathetic argument from the gutter.

Lol - and you have the nerve to criticise others for what you perceive to be ad hominem attacks - so predictable - and so lame.

People like you

And what exactly is a person like me?
Please explain?

should be ashamed, but you have no moral compass.

On what basis do you make that personal insult?

Sad and disgusting.

And you Sir assume the moral high ground to cast your indignation on other's yet have nothing to support your arguement except personal insults and empty rhetoric.
You seem so full of yourself from behind a keyboard - I imagine the reality being somewhat different.
You appear quick to insult - perhaps you have sensitivity issues - but rest assured, as easy as it would be I try my best not to do the same - sitting ducks are no fun.

reply to post by Freeborn

What version of human history have you been reading? Since time immorial nations have been interfering in other nations business, hence Empires and subjugated nations etc - may not be very 'nice' but it's an undeniable fact.

And its about time it ended dont you think?

England must be one of the most evil nations in the history of the world. The Americans stand up for themselves and beat the English to gain independance and now look at them. More evil than England.

Maybe if you were from a country that is exploited by Imperial Governments you would care a little more instead of acting like things will never change.

Not all empires are as evil as England and America btw. Some through history have been quite fair, especially when compared to England or America.

You think you are 'advanced' dont you? Its your birthright to live in a nation where people dont have to fear being killed by collateral murder.


edit- and I agree. No moral compass.

reply to post by freemarketsocialist

And its about time it ended dont you think?

FFS, what is it with some people - I never said it's how it should be or even how it could be, simply that that has been the way of the world up till now.
And it was in response to someone who stated that it was customary to keep out of other nations business, any study of human history tells that this simply is not the case - never ventured to give my personal opinion on how I would like to see human society evolve etc, because it's not relevant to the topic under discussion.

England must be one of the most evil nations in the history of the world.

Not that it's relevant at all to this discussion but please explain how you come to this judgement.
What about the excesses of the Roman, Hittite, Egyptian, Mongol, Persian, Inca, Maya, Aztec empires?
They all far exceeded anything Britain, not England, did.
Hell, the French, Belgian and Spanish Empires were governed far more cruelly than The British Empire ever was - the Spanish alone wiped out countless civilisations.
What about Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot?

Singling out the UK reeks of paranoia or yet again the pursuit of anti-UK agenda and suggests either a blatant ignorance or complete disregard for human history and critical thinking.

The Americans stand up for themselves and beat the English to gain independance and now look at them. More evil than England.

With the help of those darned, pesky French.

Come now, why all the self-hate?
There are lots of things about the USA, it's history, it's culture, some of it's people and definately it's foreign policy that I don't like, but calling it evil is somewhat extreme.

And for all it's faults, and there are plenty of them, but there's one thing that I believe wholeheartedly - this world would be a much worse place without the USA and the role it plays upon the world stage.
That role is a thankless task and yes, they've made some horrible mistakes and selfish decisions, but what have been the alternatives?

Personally I dread to think - maybe you would welcome The Taliban controlling the whole of the Middle East?
That's a prospect that fills me full of dread.

Maybe if you were from a country that is exploited by Imperial Governments you would care a little more instead of acting like things will never change.

Grow up.
I live in North East England - a region that has been pissed on, shat on and exploited by a London centric government and elite for as long as there has been an England.
It's not that I don't care rather it's just not the topic under discussion and hardly relevant.

Not all empires are as evil as England and America btw. Some through history have been quite fair, especially when compared to England or America.

A benevolent Empire?
Please do tell.

You think you are 'advanced' dont you? Its your birthright to live in a nation where people dont hav to fear being killed by collateral murder.

You ever heard of The Blitz?

You assume much without knowing anything at all about me.

Originally posted by CALGARIAN

Originally posted by GLaDOS

Muslim life is very cheap to westerners...

You know "Muslim" is a religion, not a race.. eh?

How do you know those women weren't Catholics or maybe even Athiests?

And how do you know, these women weren't insurgents ... how does the word "woman" state they are "innocent"?

From the pictures ones sees from the middle-east, womena and children are put at the front. Looks to me, like the "muslims" if they indeed are a race, are a bunch of goons hiding behind women and children.

reply to post by bjarneorn

Its a fact that the Taliban uses women and children as walking bombs, traffickers, etc. There are plenty of women insurgents. People just refuse to believe it.

reply to post by Freeborn

Grow up. I live in North East England - a region that has been pissed on, shat on and exploited by a London centric government and elite for as long as there has been an England.

See this is the crux. And boo hoo.

You only think you have seen hardship because you have never seen real hardship. What happened? What happened to you in England that was so hard for you?

And the world is the way it is because after WW2 America designed a system that put them at the top forever. They have been raping us all ever since and asking us to say thankyou.

They create a world where guys like you think that the poor helpless people of 'emerging' and 'developing' nations are in such a bad way because they are not as smart as us clever westerners. America created a system of upper class nations, middle class nations and low class nations.

America forced unfair 'Trade Agreements' on the world. America puts sanctions on any nation that doesnt do what they say and America and Americans are happy to starve entire populations like Cuba and North Korea and Iran. America invades any nation it likes based on nothing but bs. They go after resources and Central Banks and tell all the idiots its for democracy.

See the worst thing about America is that they act like monsters and all they have to do is say "human rights" and "democracy" and all the clever morons agree with anything.

And you think the Roman Empire was worse than America? Yeah right. The Romans were more than fair to the Gauls and any other nation they defeated and brought into the Empire. I dont even know what you are talking about. Especially early, the Roman Empire was fair. And honest about what they were doing.

And America funded the Taliban when they wanted them to fight commies. And do you really think there is no link between al Quada and the US Government? Really What about Anwar and the CIA? There are many links. The 'War on Terror' is nonsense and it always has been.

And its none of the wests business what happens in the middle east. None. None. The west should only protect its borders and respond if attacked. It would also help if the US stopped attacking itself.

The US is a pathetic joke and they are almost finished. They have managed to destroy the world economy on their way out too. And people like you still defend them?

The world should never have allowed itself to become slaves of the US. They should never have been allowed to control the Reserve Currency.

And why dont you try some empirical history instead of your propaganda fill;ed western history books.

-and how is any of this off topic? The metality of westerners is key. Its not the Governments fault, its yours.

To OP.

This is terrible. However, just to add some context.

Over 80% of civilian casualties are caused by the Taliban. We don't hear too much about that. All the IEDs lying around, repression and beheadings for listening to music do take a toll on your average Afghan.

With all the news, one would think Afghanistan was a peaceful backwater before NATO came along. In fact, the Taliban et al have been merrily killing, brutalising and repressing for quite a long time. Furthermore, many Taliban are foreigners so can be construed as “invaders”.

Question. If NATO was not in situ would the lot of the average Afghani be better or worse? The history of the Taliban suggests it would be worse and that NATO has reduced the overall death toll and brought hope to women who are pretty well repressed into nothingness by the nice Taliban.

Regards

The Guardian :
The coalition says it believes only insurgents were hit. But villagers from Alingar district in the remote Laghman province, east of Kabul, brought the bodies to the governor's office in the provincial capital, said Sarhadi Zewak, a spokesman for the provincial government. "They were shouting 'death to America' They were condemning the attack," Zewak said. Seven females were taken to area hospitals, some as young as 10, said provincial health director Latif Qayumi. Nato forces at first said that about 45 insurgents and no civilians were killed in the attack. But spokesman Jamie Graybeal said later that they took the allegations of civilian deaths seriously and were investigating them, though initial reports showed only insurgents were killed.

"...some as young as 10 " --- imagine , just imagine for a second at least , that one of that girls was YOUR daughter. You can't, aren't you ?!

"...it believes only insurgents were hit " --- no s... , but who gave them the right to HIT ?!

However, all that will return against americans like a boomerang ! Just wait and see !

reply to post by freemarketsocialist

See this is the crux. And boo hoo.

No it isn't the crux of the matter - it was an aside.

You only think you have seen hardship because you have never seen real hardship.

How do you know - you know absolutely nothing about me or my life.
Quite full of yourself aren't you.

There seems to be some glaring differences between me and you - I try to look at facts and deal in the reality of what is and what was, I try my best not to make assumptions, I try to base my opinions on reasoned and considered thought and I have never been arrogant enough to suppose that I have any of the answers let alone all of them.

And the world is the way it is because after WW2 America designed a system that put them at the top forever. They have been raping us all ever since and asking us to say thankyou.

No, there were so many contributory factors to human development that it's sheer nonsense to apportion all the blame for the world's ill's solely at the feet of the USA.

Seems to me that you are intent on twisting world events just to suit your own political ideals and world viewpoint.

They create a world where guys like you think that the poor helpless people of 'emerging' and 'developing' nations are in such a bad way because they are not as smart as us clever westerners

I don't think anything of the sort - again you assume so much just to fit in with your take in things.
Where have I said or implied anything like that?

. America created a system of upper class nations, middle class nations and low class nations.

That existed well before the USA existed as the nation we know today.

America puts sanctions on any nation that doesnt do what they say and America and Americans are happy to starve entire populations like Cuba and North Korea and Iran.

I agree 100% there.
Doesn't make it right but many other nations have acted similarly in the past - the difference is that since the development of the global economy the USA has been the only real superpower - it would be no different if China or Russia were the dominant world power.
Sad but true.
Would I like to things different?
Of course I would - but that's for another time and place methinks.

America invades any nation it likes based on nothing but bs. They go after resources and Central Banks and tell all the idiots its for democracy.

See the worst thing about America is that they act like monsters and all they have to do is say "human rights" and "democracy" and all the clever morons agree with anything.

Yeah, I'd tend to agree there - but what are the alternatives?

And sorry, I'm not going to discuss the virtues of The Roman Empire, or any other empire, here - start a thread on the nature of empires in general or something similar and I'd gladly contribute.

And America funded the Taliban when they wanted them to fight commies. And do you really think there is no link between al Quada and the US Government? Really What about Anwar and the CIA? There are many links. The 'War on Terror' is nonsense and it always has been.

Of course there are links and people within the US government and security agencies etc have dirty hands - not sure that it's a presidentially approved conspiracy covering several administrations and countless government officials.

And its none of the wests business what happens in the middle east. None. None.

Got to disagree there - I believe we have a moral responsibility to oppose people like Saddam and organisations like The Taliban.
However, we stay too long, we disrespect local customs and wishes, arrogantly impose 'our' form of governments etc, deal with criminals and install puppets like Karzai.

And people like you still defend them?

It's not that I defend them, I just don't think the alternatives are any better - and that is a sad indictment of mankind as a whole.
.

And why dont you try some empirical history instead of your propaganda fill;ed western history books.

I've spent years reading versions of world history from numerous sources.
Just because my interpretation or understanding is different from your's doesn't mean that it's not reasoned or considered or even well balanced.

....The metality of westerners is key.

And so is the attitude of The Taliban who regularly use civilians as human shields or distractions.

As I have said before, where is your moral indignation at the numerous outrages committed by The Taliban?

Its not the Governments fault, its yours

How do you work that out?

Prays for theirs as well as ALL innocent caught in the middle of the WARS within this cosmos. May peace find their souls along their journey and may the LOVE in LIGHT guide them.

Originally posted by popcornmafia

Originally posted by GLaDOS
reply to post by seabag

 

Oh, I'm sorry. You believe the official story of 9/11. I should've known.

Only nut jobs and third world muslims don't

Much of the world doesn't. I don't meet many who do.

Originally posted by villunder

However, all that will return against americans like a boomerang ! Just wait and see !

You have two sides of this story, that can immediately be identified.

* The unreliable information provided to the coalition forces, where opposition is "forcing" forward the "civilian" casualties.

* Parts of the opposition forces are made up of women, who also have with them ...children.


Sure, it will get back at the US ... what goes around, comes around.

But if you think, that that part is in favor of any of the muslim nations? I urge you to think again ... and think a bit harder. Because, IFF the US is taken out of the equation ... the middle east, is toast. Without the US, trying in it's blindness to adjust the middle-east, and the rest of the world. You would clean the road, for forces, that would work actively towards "wiping them off the map".

There is an old saying, that goes like this: Not everyone who craps on you is your enemy, and not everyone who helps you is your friend.

edit on 17/9/2012 by bjarneorn because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by 369821
reply to post by Juggernog

 

No, Obama didnt do a thing. According to the lie, the Navy SEALS went into his compound in Pakistan and shot him in the head just above the left eye. Which I find to be the most ridiculous lie ever told. Osama Bin Laden has been dead since 2001. That is a FACT that you can take to the bank.

PULEEEAAASEE, give me one link to a credible sourse that supports that rediculous theory of yours.

if its FACT you should have no problem correct?

reply to post by Dizrael


No response.
Um, wheres the proof that it went down like the official story? Obamas word? The body? Oh, wait. they "buried him at sea". The DNA evidence? You mean the test results that took only a few hours? Ha, so gullible. The crashed helicopter in Pakistan? That proves nothing other than the military has at least 1 bad pilot.
I cant quote my sources for obvious reasons. You can only quote the sources that are known to lie their butts off to the American people.
Stalemate.

Originally posted by 369821
reply to post by Dizrael

 

I cant quote my sources for obvious reasons. You can only quote the sources that are known to lie their butts off to the American people.
Stalemate.

its really not obvious why you cant, unless you mean because you have no source.

my source is still better than your lack of source. anyone else have a source showing Bin Laden Died in 2001?

anyone?

reply to post by Dizrael


Sure, we'll go with that. I have no source and came up with this out of thin air. Just to say it. No other reason.