Game Changer?: China's F-35 (F-60 / J-21 / flatbed fighter) emerges!

reply to post by pheonix358


Wow, Chinese phasers, shields, and transporters, blow away the F-22 mentioned and I stand corrected. And here I thought that the F15 was a success in sales to other countries until the next generation platform is tested and put on the market.

Will research this Chinese break through in technology and watch its sales worldwide. So much for American technology.

Everybody blames the Chinese for low quality merchandise.

You need to blame the mighty US of A. It is the USA that orders crap! The Chinese are quite happy to make the crap for you. Like anyone in industry they can make it cheap or they can make it good. Places like Walmart order it cheap as and they buy it cheap as, then they sell it cheap as + record profit.

Don't blame the Chinese.

My point is, how do you know that the Chinese are 'behind' in the technology stakes. They may have some very nasty surprises for you.

Japan went through the same cycle. They make some of the most modern equipment now. Back in the 60's the West ordered crap and they dutifully made the crap.

Never underestimate an opponent.


P

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy

Originally posted by ANNED
Any plane is less then half of the equation. US pilots can out fly pilots in most of the rest of the world.

only a few countries have pilots equal to US pilots and they are all friendly countries.

Yes, and given the lack of quality assurance that china has with everything they build I would place a good wager they have many issues of mechanical breakdowns.

Like the F-22's and when they first tried sending them from Hawaii to Korea....when they hit the International Date Line the computers crashed and they had to find Hawaii by the seat of their pants and land them...and wait for engineers to come and figure out what went wrong?

They are lucky they were able to find Hawaii and land.....

...not to mention the possible poisoning and asphyxiation of the pilots!

See, all this looks good on paper and they sure look purdy trailing smoke as they perform a fast flypast at the superbowl for the slack jawed knuckledraggers, but........ none of it is actually "combat" proven, against similarly equipped forces in a no holds barred engagement.
Bombing goat herders half a world away and performing CAP over enemy territory, when there is no aerial competition is not really a measure of how good the airframe or it's pilots are.

If the enemy launches a missile strike on the runways your aircraft are operating from, whether land or ship based, and shoots down the tanker support, then no amount of stealth and high tech gadgetry is going to prevent those expensive toys from plummeting to the ground. As I said above, none of the USA's current generation of combat aircraft have ever had to operate in a theatre where the enemy has had the capability to defend against them. Arrogance on the part of the politicians and military suppliers might well be their undoing if they pick a fight with the inferior Chinese. After all, the raptors may be able to take down a half dozen Migs each, but what happens when they are overwhelmed by the other half dozen and have no missiles left?

reply to post by Britguy


The U.S. military never ever thought of that scenario. Oh my, your brilliance has just pointed out what the entire military strategist in the U.S. has never thought of. Give it a break.

I really shouldn't feed them.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Everybody blames the Chinese for low quality merchandise.

You need to blame the mighty US of A. It is the USA that orders crap! The Chinese are quite happy to make the crap for you. Like anyone in industry they can make it cheap or they can make it good. Places like Walmart order it cheap as and they buy it cheap as, then they sell it cheap as + record profit.

Don't blame the Chinese.

My point is, how do you know that the Chinese are 'behind' in the technology stakes. They may have some very nasty surprises for you.

Japan went through the same cycle. They make some of the most modern equipment now. Back in the 60's the West ordered crap and they dutifully made the crap.

Never underestimate an opponent.


P

Really< hmmm
I think if you search a bit you will find the bridge failures (built by the chinese in their homeland
And buildings (built by the chinese in their homeland) that have fallen down
the poor codes for safety,, but like Doritos,. they will make more people to replace the ones that die
Come on.. China cuts corners. Period

Originally posted by Lil Drummerboy

Originally posted by pheonix358
Everybody blames the Chinese for low quality merchandise.

You need to blame the mighty US of A. It is the USA that orders crap! The Chinese are quite happy to make the crap for you. Like anyone in industry they can make it cheap or they can make it good. Places like Walmart order it cheap as and they buy it cheap as, then they sell it cheap as + record profit.

Don't blame the Chinese.

My point is, how do you know that the Chinese are 'behind' in the technology stakes. They may have some very nasty surprises for you.

Japan went through the same cycle. They make some of the most modern equipment now. Back in the 60's the West ordered crap and they dutifully made the crap.

Never underestimate an opponent.


P

Really< hmmm
I think if you search a bit you will find the bridge failures (built by the chinese in their homeland
And buildings (built by the chinese in their homeland) that have fallen down
the poor codes for safety,, but like Doritos,. they will make more people to replace the ones that die
Come on.. China cuts corners. Period

Yes it happens occasionally. Due mainly to graft and corruption. Of course the US is the leading light of graft and corruption.

It would be stupid argument from me to suggest that a bridge that collapses due to harmonic causing winds is indicative of US engineering skills. It isn't. Your reply is just as silly. Try again.

P

This has all been argued to death a thousand times.

I'll just add this. china has an inferiority complex and they like to surprise the world with their high tech top of the line weapons. How many J-20s have they produced? How many squadrons are in service? These are prototypes, probably with so many issues that the service life of the F22s and F35s will be half over before they are ever fully deployed.

The US has its' F22s in service. Every advanced system has bugs so don't let the F22 glitches leave you thinking they can't perform. The US is looking at a new stealth fighter for heavier payloads and longer range. It will likely be the next thing you see come out.

The US has no inferiority complex. It keeps everything it can secret. It's hard to keep a hundred billion dollar fighter program secret, but those drone space planes were a surprise, as was the stealth chopper, and the stealth drone, and the two hubble sized space based telescopes that the NSA gave to NASA recently.

As far as arrogance is concerned it is a bad habit. China can defeat the US under certain circumstances even now. It can beat us on its' coasts because it can bring far more aircraft to bare in that place than the US can. The US will not run its' carriers in close enough to make them vulnerable to too much, so maintaining an airborne presence along the coast would be difficult, much less a large presence. Though China would pay a heavy toll when it got blockaded from a thousand miles away, outside of its' superiority zone.

reply to post by pheonix358


While i agree with you the f22 could just be hype (its never been used in a real life combat situation so we dont know ) However i am pretty sure its illegal in US law to sell it to anybody else even nato allies

Originally posted by Erectus
The US is looking at a new stealth fighter for heavier payloads and longer range. It will likely be the next thing you see come out.

What battlefield was the F-35 and F-22 ever designed to operate in?

For Pacific Ocean warfare they have some really short legs for operating range. The YF-23 would have been better off for Pacific Ocean warfare where range and the ability to carry more weapons internally would have counted.

I think it would be an extreme failure of US Defense policy if the F-35 and F-22 is scrapped for Pacific Ocean warfare and they have to design YET ANOTHER stealth fighter because the last two designs....were picked by politicians instead of someone with common sense.....and the YF-23 design that flew decades ago would have been far superior.....and why the Chinese copied it.

reply to post by Pervius


Which Chinese plane is a copy of the yf 23?

Originally posted by dcmb1409
...But I still have a bias view on anything made in China because of past poor material and workmanship on products.

Precisely. All you have to do is walk down any aisle of your local WalFart and see the tons of inferior plastic, bootlegged, crap the Chinese deliver by the mega-cargoship load to gullible Westerners. The whole world knows that the Chines are just a bunch of cheating, thieving, copy-cats. (and yes, we continue to buy the junk for every phony Holiday, mostly with money we borrowed from them! )

Big Deal. The J-20/21 and their brethren will be taxiing down runways and posing for photo-ops for years.

Put one in the air against one of our boys in an F-4 and my money is on the Phantom.

Shrewd? Yes. Opportunists? Of course. Clever marketers? Absolutely.

A military threat on land, sea, or, especially, air?? Muhuhuahahahahahaaaaaa....

*yawn*

Originally posted by Pervius

Like the F-22's and when they first tried sending them from Hawaii to Korea....when they hit the International Date Line the computers crashed and they had to find Hawaii by the seat of their pants and land them...and wait for engineers to come and figure out what went wrong?

They are lucky they were able to find Hawaii and land.....

There was nothing lucky about it, as they were never in any danger. They had tankers with them the entire flight, so they just stayed with the tankers, and turned around and flew back to Hawaii.

As for an earlier post about the J-21, this and the J-20 are years away from IOC. There are currently two or three J-20s flying. Last year it was estimated that the J-20 program completed 60 flights. It takes several years for a stealth aircraft to become operational. It's estimated, by the Chinese and US, that the earliest it can be operational is 2017-2018.

The J-21 is POSSIBLY designed to be put onto an aircraft carrier, based on a little bit that has been inferred from the design. One of the most telling design features is the double bogey nosewheel. This means that it's probably a pretty solid strut, like you would see on a carrier aircraft. Land based aircraft typically only have a single wheel on the nosewheel strut.

The guy's site, Aviationintel.com, where this story was originally taken from for this thread is simply my favorite military aviation site I have ever visited. Totally addicted. It's opinion based but he killed everyone else on the RQ-170 story, the F-35 debacle and so many other unique news items and one-off articles. He talks a lot about how we are buying the totally wrong weapons for the future of warfare. Especially when it comes to dependance on tankers and stuff. Very good unafraid commentary. A bunch of RAAF Hornet guys I know swear by it, that's how I found out about it in the first place. At land's end, it is astonishing how America spends so much money on rubbish that is totally ill suited for the wars they get themselves into. Shame.

Great discussion & Cheers mates!