The ONE question I have never been able to answer....can You help? (To Creationists and Evolutionist

reply to post by eleven44

Originally posted by eleven44
Okay, this is literally one of the first 'philosophical' questions I remember asking myself, even as a very young child (probably around 5 or 6.)

'How did all of this begin?'

I do believe in God now (and did as a young child too, although I have never been 'religious.)
So let's assume that, as the spiritual teachings go, God is Infinite. God has no beginning and no End. Time is an illusion. Physical reality is an illusion. All that ever has and ever will be is happening right Now.
Okay, cool. I can dig that.

BUT WHAT STARTED IT??

If it has no beginning or end, how can it "start", once you say it "started" you are giving it a beginning, and if that has a beginning you'll just ask, well what caused that and that and you'll keep yourself in this circle of thinking for ever, at some point it HAS to be something eternal whether you believe it is a God or whatever...

Originally posted by eleven44
I mean...how did 'God' come in to existence. And again, I know the rhetoric is 'God has no beginning and no End.' But seriously serious here, how is that possible? I don't believe our little human brains can grasp the idea.
But that has never stopped me from trying.

Okay, but then lets say 'God is not real. Only Science and Evolution are at play here.'
Okay, I could possibly get behind that too...but even still...WHAT STARTED IT??

I mean, the theory of Evolution is that everything evolves from something else. But what was THE FIRST 'thing?'

There is no such thing as "non-existence".

All things are either potential (idea, abstracts, etc) or actual (in reality, happening); there is no "non-existence". So, that is what makes it eternal, there is no "non-existence" for anything to come from - all is either potential or actual - already existent. Potential manifest into reality , the smallest things manifests on its own WITHOUT A CAUSE [virtual particles/casimir effect - light can just pop into existence]

Originally posted by eleven44
The only answer that seems to come to me is something that our little human brains can't even grasp...yet it still is telling me,
"This is all illusion. You do not exist. Physical realms do not exist. God is All That Is."

But then....where did that 'truth' come from and how and why?

Yo are trapping yourself by asking a non-ending question. If there is an answer to "where did truth come from" the next thing you'd be asking is where did that thing that caused truth come from? And where did that come from?

It is a non-ending question and no matter how many answers there are - at SOME point, it'll have to be something which always existed.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Could the chicken and egg not pop Into existence simultaneously?

Split from itself into two?

Not split but all created at once....

They could, and that is kind of my point that since quantum particals can pop in and out of existence so could a universe that is at the quantum level too. As you suggest in this case the chicken, egg and the whole universe is all instantaneously be created or disappear into nothingness.

I personally see a beginning and end to our own universe though the idea of universes is infinite because time is not a part of the equation. Our universe popped into existence with infinite space/time in all directions, BUT with also all the matter of the universe at the size of a quark....the next 14 billion years that quark size universe has expanded into what we see today, but space/time for us is still infinite.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Since we do know that at the quantum level that matter can just blink in and out of existence, what would happen to an entire universe that has collapsed in on itself down to the size of a quark or gluon?

I'm not aware of any evidence that "matter can just blink in and out of existence", but, even if that were the case, one can't apply quantum behaviour to macro scale phenomena. Even if the universe collapsed in on itself, it is the density that changes, not the component matter, so quantum behaviour does not apply.

I disagree, I think once it has reduced to a subatomic level it becomes more wave like, though dense, and can and did take on quantum behavior.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Since we do know that at the quantum level that matter can just blink in and out of existence, what would happen to an entire universe that has collapsed in on itself down to the size of a quark or gluon?

I'm not aware of any evidence that "matter can just blink in and out of existence", but, even if that were the case, one can't apply quantum behaviour to macro scale phenomena. Even if the universe collapsed in on itself, it is the density that changes, not the component matter, so quantum behaviour does not apply.

I disagree, I think once it has reduced to a subatomic level it becomes more wave like, though dense, and can and did take on quantum behavior.

I'm not sure that you are understanding what I'm saying, or perhaps you don't understand physics -- "reduced to a subatomic level" is a nonsense statement. Matter is composed of atoms, so you can't change matter into subatomic particles, and even if you could compress it to be small enough to be comparable in size, it would not BE subatomic, because it would still be composed of atoms (which would be crunched closely together, but still atoms.)

Quantum mechanics describes behaviours on the quantum level, which doesn't really have anything to do with size, but with the nature of the components in that realm. If a proton was somehow expanded to be a foot across, it would still act like a photon, it would just be bigger.

So, while the universe could, theoretically, be compressed to the space smaller than an atom, it would not act in a manner consistent with quantum behaviour.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast. Psalm 33:9

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please Isaiah 46:10

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.” Revelation 4:11


But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” Daniel 12:4

Context Correlation...Last Days... Knowledge Will Increase...


(Modern English=143) A=1 B=2 C=3... Gematria (Translation=143)

Stay In Context...= 100% Correlation!

Genesis 1:1 (in the=56) beginning God (created=56) the heavens and the earth. = Perfection

Genesis 1:2 "waste, void and darkness" = Result of Judgment...Fall of Lucifer

Genesis 1:3 " God said, let there be (light=56) = Re-Generation As IN Revelation Ch. 21 New Heaven and Earth

Connection Genesis 1:1 (beginning=81) And Correlation of John 1:1 In the (beginning=81) (All Light=81)

Also- Reality of Context Numeric Structure - (Three=56) = Father - Son - Holy Spirit (In the=56) (Past=56)

(Created=56) By Their (Will=56) (Rule=56) (Term=56)

(Holy Bible=90) (Word Fact=90) (Reality=90)

(Faithful=83) (Numeric=83) (Author=83) (Jesus Christ=151) (Jesus is Lord=151) (Holy Spirit=151)

Jesus Gave A Great Insight - John 21:11 The ( 153 ) Fish Count

Also In John 21:6 Jesus said, cast the net on (the right side of=153) (JESUS WORDS=153)

(God Set In Order=153) (Numeric Proof=153) (Measurements=153) (Arithmetic of God=153)

(Purpose Plan=153) (The Golden Ratio=153) (The Last Language=153)

A to Z G=7 O=15 D=4 = (26) pi= 26 As Golden Ratio ARE INFINITE NUMBERS...

Some Number Reflections... (DNA=19 (ADAM=19) (SPIRIT=91)

(All=25) (Earth=52) (Place=37) (Number=73) (Time=47) (JESUS=74) (Bride=38) (Faithful=83)

Jesus=74 Messiah=74 Jewish=74 Cross=74 Connect=74 Point=74 Gospel=74 English=74 The Key=74

Format=73 Number=73 Count=73 Perfect=73

Presence=85 Creation=85 Verify=85 Matrix=85

Star=58 Design=58 Actual=58 Science=58

For More Info. Confirming Perfect Design - Hebrew / Greek Gematria www.biblemaths.com...


English Gematria - Creation Design - www.asis.com...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by MamaJ
Could the chicken and egg not pop Into existence simultaneously?

Split from itself into two?

Not split but all created at once....

They could, and that is kind of my point that since quantum particals can pop in and out of existence so could a universe that is at the quantum level too. As you suggest in this case the chicken, egg and the whole universe is all instantaneously be created or disappear into nothingness.

I personally see a beginning and end to our own universe though the idea of universes is infinite because time is not a part of the equation. Our universe popped into existence with infinite space/time in all directions, BUT with also all the matter of the universe at the size of a quark....the next 14 billion years that quark size universe has expanded into what we see today, but space/time for us is still infinite.

edit on 16-9-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

Awesome, I see we are on the same page already!

Yay!!!!

reply to post by ResearchEverything777


I saw that site the other day!! Interesting.

Thanks, about to check out the second link you offered!

Originally posted by adjensen

I'm not sure that you are understanding what I'm saying, or perhaps you don't understand physics -- "reduced to a subatomic level" is a nonsense statement. Matter is composed of atoms, so you can't change matter into subatomic particles, and even if you could compress it to be small enough to be comparable in size, it would not BE subatomic, because it would still be composed of atoms (which would be crunched closely together, but still atoms.)

I guess the question is if you smash atoms in on themselves, let's say a universe down to a quark, are we still talking atoms? Also we are now pushing towards quantum theory of gravity to help explain what the universe was like as the granddaddy of singularities. I think in the end we will see that quantum physics plays a big role into what a singularity can or can not do.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Awesome, I see we are on the same page already!

Yay!!!!

And what page would that be...

Originally posted by MamaJ

I see this comcept above as God being the eternal thinker. In that sense, it makes perfect sense.

I'm not God. Are you? Do you think we are God and one in the same with all laws the same? No difference at all?

I see this concept as a goal whereas we don't think of god but with god. The ultimate goal for the soul is to think with him and not of him.

I'm still open though. It makes sense but not in the same sense as you make it? I hope I just made sense to you as it does to me. See?

When you come to this moment of presence (now) and just witness (see) the thoughts arising you will notice that the thoughts just appear from nowhere in nothing. (If you do this you will find not many thoughts show up, but you may be aware of the space they appear in)
Coming to now might seem like a goal but now can never be separated from you. You are now. It is just not 'realized' because the mind (thoughts, words, stories the mind tells) deludes us that there is other than this ever present nowness (just this). The thoughts can only arise now. Those thoughts speak of 'other', 'other' time and 'other' place but you will only ever experience here and now. The mind lives in 'there and then' and needs to come home to the truth which is that it will never escape here and now.
Yes you are one with God but only when you realize yourself as the ever present awareness will you know you are God (timeless being) - this is called God realization. Until then you will believe you are a person in time. This belief is just a case of misidentification. I believe it is what is called the original sin - the original (first and only) mistake that humans made, humans 'think' (they ate from the tree of knowledge) they are separate to God.
It is only 'thinking' that creates the separation - thinking cannot actually separate you from now but the thinking is believed (the stories are deceptive). If the thinking is believed (if you are deceived by thought) you will feel fragmented, conflicted, confused and fearful - the human condition.
If the thinking is seen and known to be just an appearance appearing presently, you have put yourself into a different perspective, a different viewing position - you are just viewing, watching, witnessing the present appearance and you know you are seeing it presently. If the thinking is believed you will feel fragmented, conflicted, confused and fearful - the human condition.
When you do this you will find that your true nature is silent, still and peaceful - you will be watching the movie of existence with the father.

Don't think with God. Be with God. Just see and know (watch) with God. Thinking is not peaceful. Silence is peaceful.
The silence when found never leaves - it is the background to all noise (the silence is aware). Find yourself as the silent presence that all appearance appear to.

Find that which never changes;
youtu.be...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Your words are very inspiring and I feel as though meditation is now needed. Just to reflect on the words.

It's a beautiful thing to live in the now.

Silence is not something I embrace but a beautiful melody within sings a beautiful song.

Being silenced isn't something my spirit is capable of, even in meditation.

Thoughts arise, controllling thoughts is what I enjoy doing while meditating.

To silence God is to stop all of creation...... I enjoy existing.

reply to post by MamaJ


Silence is the background to all being.
Imagine a tv screen before the picture appears - it is empty, silent and still.
When the picture, image (or noise) appears on the empty screen, the screen seems to disappear but the empty screen is always present.
You are the empty screen which is always present.
Emptiness is forming.

You are not noise, if you were you would not beable to hear noise.

Watch this short video to see how the thoughts cannot be silenced but how thoughts appear in silence.
youtu.be...
It may help with meditation.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Silence is the background to all being.
Imagine a tv screen before the picture appears - it is empty, silent and still.
When the picture, image (or noise) appears on the empty screen, the screen seems to disappear but the empty screen is always present.
You are the empty screen which is always present.
Emptiness is forming.

You are not noise, if you were you would not beable to hear noise.

Watch this short video to see how the thoughts cannot be silenced but how thoughts appear in silence.
youtu.be...
It may help with meditation.

edit on 17-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Ok I will listen to it when I get the kids off to school, thanks!!! :-)

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Your words are very inspiring and I feel as though meditation is now needed. Just to reflect on the words.

It's a beautiful thing to live in the now.

Silence is not something I embrace but a beautiful melody within sings a beautiful song.

Being silenced isn't something my spirit is capable of, even in meditation.

Thoughts arise, controllling thoughts is what I enjoy doing while meditating.

To silence God is to stop all of creation...... I enjoy existing.

Thoughts cannot be controlled because it is thought that is trying to control thought. Freedom is when there is no need for control. The freedom is found when it is realized that the thoughts just appear and that you are not putting them there. The freedom is that you are just the watcher and knower of thoughts arising. When you find yourself to be the witness of thought, you will find that you are silent and peacefully just watching.
This does not mean the character that you once believed yourself to be will be quiet, no, the character is part of the play of existence (Leela,Maya). The play of existence is happening presently and is seen and known by the all seeing, all knowing and ever present presence that you are.
Rest in and as peace.

You know it's just a movie.
youtu.be...
It's just happening.

This message is about destruction. It destroys all that is not true. When all that is not true is destroyed, only truth will remain.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by adjensen

I'm not sure that you are understanding what I'm saying, or perhaps you don't understand physics -- "reduced to a subatomic level" is a nonsense statement. Matter is composed of atoms, so you can't change matter into subatomic particles, and even if you could compress it to be small enough to be comparable in size, it would not BE subatomic, because it would still be composed of atoms (which would be crunched closely together, but still atoms.)

I guess the question is if you smash atoms in on themselves, let's say a universe down to a quark, are we still talking atoms?

Yes -- you don't change the nature of something by changing its density. One could, theoretically, compress a book down to the size of an atom, but it's still a book, comprised of atoms, it isn't an atom itself. Size and state are completely different things.

Originally posted by eleven44
Okay, this is literally one of the first 'philosophical' questions I remember asking myself, even as a very young child (probably around 5 or 6.)

'How did all of this begin?'

I mean, the theory of Evolution is that everything evolves from something else. But what was THE FIRST 'thing?'

The only answer that seems to come to me is something that our little human brains can't even grasp...yet it still is telling me,
"This is all illusion. You do not exist. Physical realms do not exist. God is All That Is."

But then....where did that 'truth' come from and how and why?

Each of these three questions is a very different question, and each answer is very different. In fact, the first two answers are completely unrelated to the third answer.

If you don't understand the difference between physical existence and material existence, then there's no possible way for you to ever understand how any of it came into existence, and it's this difference that holds the real key to ultimately determining the truth you seek.

I actually wrote a clever little description of the actual genesis instant, and published it as the introduction to a fairly lengthy analysis of how physical existence progressively developed on a macro scale (meaning that I only dwelt on large emergence milestones, such as holons, matter, life, matter-information hybridization, sentience, and so forth). It's kind of irreverent I suppose, but it does capture the simplicity of that specific instant. Anyway, I've posted it on this board before, so what the hell.

In the beginning there was nothing. Not even the truth of there being nothing. A literal absence of anything whatsoever.

Now, it would’ve been true that this void was nothing if this first of all truths had ever been established, but it hadn’t been. And as the sole pre-contextual qualification, Absolute Truth was the only possible means to establish this total absence of anything as being what nothing truly is, a definite, quantifiable concept with its own unique contextual identity. That could only be done by the logical determination of that existential absence as being, in truth, nothing.

When Absolute Logic revealed that ‘if there is nothing in existence, then nothing exists’ is true, Truth established nothing as the first qualified something to exist with a defined contextual relationship between itself and that which is – even if only as a potential concept – not it. That first achievement of inimitable identity was a specific instance of change; the first event to ever occur.

The absence of anything had become the true existence of nothing; a change that resulted in the fact of that change to physically emerge as a unit cluster of information, which also established the truth that an event (any change from what was to what is) creates information; a new fact that, then, also emerged as information. As a result of this first change, the fact of physical existence – in the form of eternal information – was now true, and as an established fact with no change in status logically possible, it would remain true forever.

The eternal nature of the physical fact required Truth’s definitive qualification – Absolute Reality – to now physically exist as a permanent contextual standard, making all subsequent information clusters now directly comparable as true or untrue upon emergence; Logic’s first imposition of existential order. This established the physical basis for the contextual environment, with Reality– the factual result of Truth and Logic – completing the conceptual Trinity of Absolutes. And upon this foundation, physical existence would then emerge and progressively develop as a symbiotic relationship between the Event (change) and Information (fact of change).

excerpt- TAKING DOWN THE CURTAIN: The Truth About Faith, Fact, and the Slippery Wizards of Voodoo Metaphysics

And, that's how it all started.

It takes about 135,000 words - carefully crafted, and meticulously vetted and verified - to prove that what this cute little exercise in extreme brevity suggests is actually accurate. That means that you can dismiss it if you wish, but don't expect me to take the time to go deep into the weeds on it here. I already did that work, and published it all for open inspection.

Again, physical existence is not material existence, and if you just get that straight, you'll be miles ahead of most folks concerning how all of this came into existence.

reply to post by NorEaster


hmmmm

Question answered, then.

Well, that was refreshing.

THANK YOU for posting/asking this, as I have wondered the same exact thing from the same exact age . I was raised Catholic, and in my once a week class, I would always ask this....and never got a satisfactory answer. More or less, I was told we came from God and that's that. I always wanted to know more. Eventually I pushed the question out of my mind because I would get too frustrated trying to figure it out. Can't wait to read these responses, but I wanted to express my relating and my gratitude first.