The ONE question I have never been able to answer....can You help? (To Creationists and Evolutionist

i think an interesting way to look at a god figure is to see him as time/space
itself, or something similar, or the actual universe itself, ironically if you
look at atoms, they are in a way similar to solar systems, that is if you
take size out of the equation of course, and so far as we can see
galaxies are similar as well, so one must assume that the universe
itself is also similar, what if thats just what we are, literally part of god
himself, not just he made us or anything like that but we are the atoms
that make up this being.

in seeing things like that one could say endless time as perceived by
us is simply an hour or two in this beings perception. i dont personally
believe this as i dont believe there is a god as depicted by any religion,
but the possibility that we are part of another race all together isnt too
difficult to see, its all relative to the observer. as we know time moves
faster/slower when gravity is less/more and the faster/slower you move, in simple
terms anyway.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by MamaJ

 

I'm very familiar with your spiritual views, MamaJ. I was raised in Wicca and studied under my local chapter of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Temple of Ptah) for many years. I'm quite familiar with Theosophy, and the idea of Ceremonial Magick. In all honesty, that was where my intense interest in Egyptian, and then West Asian mythology and Mystery Schools first came from. When I realized that Hermetic philosophy "bent the rules" to make their philosophies make sense though, I left.

I'm much happier looking for actual scientific explanations for my spiritual beliefs, instead of pop-physics and Quantum New Age woo. I know my path is not for everyone though. The discoveries I've made surprised even you, when I talked with you very briefly about them where you inquired about my sources as you hadn't come across the information I presented. So, I say we both just go our own individualized ways. If and when you're ready to embrace in-depth science—which requires letting go of the possibility of a being without form and dimension, who simultaneously has all forms and all dimensions—then I wish you luck in your explorations.

I'd very much like a meeting of the minds on science sometime. Spirituality mixed with science is fascinating. Infinitely more fascinating than out-of-context and misunderstood Quantum Mechanics from movies like "What the Bleep Do We Know?!"

~ Wandering Scribe

I'm much happier looking for scientific explanations too. Scientific explanations is only had bu habing a beginning in human thought, otherwise it would be non existent. Lol the hermetic philosophy is a piece of that puzzle for me, as well as other philosophies. Not just one can do but in my opinion the seven principles are needed to complete said puzzle. Without the seven principles the seeker is lost and without the word itself, no communication can be had.

Never been into Wicca or magic myself. I may one day but haven't yet. The closest I get is reading tarot. I do however believe the universe allows us to have mind over matter. Our history accounts show we were able to have mind over matter..... So..... What happened to the human mind whereas only a select few have mind over matter abilities? A lost teaching maybe?

Which information was I not familiar with that you offered scientifically?? I forgot I guess.

I do remember your electromagnetic statement and I disagreed, although I didn't state that. I have been shown when you study above, you are also studying below. That in itself is magical.... Lol

It seems as though you don't think we could have a meeting of the minds in regards to science, and again, I disagree. Lol we could and will I'm sure in the near future. :-)

As far as movies, I don't even watch television, you would be surprised at what we may offer one another as letting go of dimensions and being without form is what I've said we could do here on earth.... All along.

What if each of us, is one of the fallen ones, that chose Lucifer's side and secretly despised God? What if, this is our opportunity to redeem ourselves in His eyes, and reclaim our rightful place in Eternity? Having been stripped of all knowledge of our sins, and placed on this rock, to figure out why we turned our backs on Eternal Love, and joined with the wicked one. One chance at redemption, because that's what a truly Loving God, would do... Maybe this is why we have such a profound sense of time? We must remember. We have to "humble" ourselves and ask for His forgiveness. He has shown us that it can be done. Jesus proved that. Like the adage, "Out with the old and in with the new". This is our trial. This planet can be our grave or it can be our proving grounds, and the catalyst back to His side, where we belong...!

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


Oh my gosh........ (((((((((((( cyber hugs)))))))))))) for you.

Good thinking and yes. It makes perfect sense to me.

However, I see it this way ( doesn't mean you have to).

God didn't need thought, so true. He KNOWS, as he is the eternal thinker that encompasses all things under his Sun/ Son.

He is the enlightened one with all knowledge, yet gives it freely to all things, what we do with it is up to us.

At the top is north/ good and the bottom is south/ bad and in the middle is blance.... Or.... W.E. .....

and " thinking" or existing/ experience is a gift from God, indeed. It's a show of love once you move outside yourself and give to another. He doesn't want anything in return but does wish we all have life in the end of the earth school and not perish.

I'm not under a belief system that requires me to think of an " evil one" though. God is all and the fall was from in my opinion desire, but more of a sexual desire than anything else.

One chance? I don't even give my children just one chance. They have at least three. Lol

God gives us many chances to get it right, however I think here on earth, with time, there is a time limit until this school has to evolve and the darker souls will either need to go so elsewhere or be overcome by the illuminated ones who hold so much light they are no longer left behind in the dark.

Knowledge is all we can obtain right now as we will surely die.... Seek it, I say but not just through one text, but all of them. your subconsiois mind will hold the records. Fill it! :-)

History, science, philosophy, ancient Egypt ( ancient history), human anatomy, earth, planets, stars, light especially, darkness. Anything and everything you can think of that will keep you in commune with our father.

Study his creation and see all of its glory he has offered us even though we sometimes are not worthy. To him, our father we are very worthy and he tries to give us hints daily that he never has left his creation. We left him.

Originally posted by followtheevidence
reply to post by eleven44

 

I'm sure someone has already posted the answer so pardon any redundancy:

Material reality, the universe, is constrained by causality. Every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause. This much is obvious.

The reason the universe is bound by causality is because of time. Time is the measure of changes in matter. Causality, or cause and effect is the result of time.

Consider our Creator's abode (at least according to the Christian mythos) - He is eternal; He inhabits eternity. Well, eternity is not boundless time but is marked by the absence of time.

No time, no need for a cause.

The uncreated cause. It's actually rather elegant when you think about it.

Since our Creator is outside of time, created time itself - He does not require a cause.

Regards,

FTE

edit on 16-9-2012 by followtheevidence because: (no reason given)

Whooooo hooooooo! Elegant indeed and I love hearing it and not speaking it as its so beautiful when heard, like a melody I long to hear.

When we understand our relationship with everything and see it all for what it is and the laws it's bound to we can understand we are the only ones bound by matter and time.

To feel no restraints from the material reality, is freedom and I long for this feeling again.

The creators abode is now. Has anyone ever stepped out of now? Now is where it all ends and begins.
Time is not something anyone will ever experience. Only now will ever be experienced.
Now is eternal. Out of now stories appear.
The stories are just writings (words) appearing in presence. However - the writings can be very deceptive. The stories written presently can decieve one into believing all sorts of things that are not true.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
The creators abode is now. Has anyone ever stepped out of now? Now is where it all ends and begins.
Time is not something anyone will ever experience. Only now will ever be experienced.
Now is eternal. Out of now stories appear.
The stories are just writings (words) appearing in presence. However - the writings can be very deceptive. The stories written presently can decieve one into believing all sorts of things that are not true.

edit on 16-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I've stepped out of now, to write this reply and it could be considered now again. Lol

I think I need to see more of your writings( words) appear in this thread so I can see if they are deceptive or not.

Seriously, what else ya got on your mind?

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Well, that's fine, but you do agree that the universe's rate of expansion is increasing, right? With that observation, it is impossible for the universe to collapse, so either we have the Big Rip, or expansion continues accelerating forever, and everything becomes more and more distant. Either way, no retraction, and no cyclical universe, no?

reply to post by MamaJ


It is impossible to step out of now because in your experience it is always now. It cannot be now again because now does not start or end - how long is now?
Tomorrow is a deceptive word because it makes you think there is other than now but 'tomorrow' is said now.
Can anything be seen or known any other time but now?

Now is presence and nothing can appear without presence being present.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by MamaJ

 

It is impossible to step out of now because in your experience it is always now. It cannot be now again because now does not start or end - how long is now?
Tomorrow is a deceptive word because it makes you think there is other than now but 'tomorrow' is said now.
Can anything be seen or known any other time but now?

Now is presence and nothing can appear without presence being present.

I want to expand my mind in regards to time. I enjoy thinking deep..... Einstein and I share a birthday and so the time issue is fun to ponder.

Now and past has already passed and all we can do is move forward in and with time, hence expansion.

I can't imagine a now that stays as now in time. I see it and the past as an illusion. What we are becoming is projected in time.

Outside of time, I can imagine a now that's always a now of which remains still.

Creation in my senses is never still regardless.

reply to post by MamaJ


Can you ever say 'It is not now'? (with honesty).
Seeing is happening now, hearing is happening now, speaking is happening now, reading this is happening now.
The mind, the thoughts might tell you it happened in the past but that thought that tells you that.. is happening now presently.
The mind cannot grasp now because the mind appears in the now so cannot see it.

Now is the quiet empty space that the mind appears in.
youtu.be...

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Can you ever say 'It is not now'? (with honesty).
Seeing is happening now, hearing is happening now, speaking is happening now, reading this is happening now.
The mind, the thoughts might tell you it happened in the past but that thought that tells you that.. is happening now presently.
The mind cannot grasp now because the mind appears in the now so cannot see it.

Now is the quiet empty space that the mind appears in.
youtu.be...

edit on 16-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

I understand where you are coming from because I understand the short memory and it's relation to " time".

Outside of time, again there can be a " now" when all is at rest but even a birth or a death shows no unrest in a state where time exists.

In order to go outside of time, there is no such thing as a measurement of such, thus we lose all time whereas the only measurement of the now can then be transformed to eternal which holds no beginning, no middle, no end.

All happenings are simultaneous. This is what eternal thought is. The force and power of will through thought.

Time is a concept of which we observe matter and light reacting to one another and measure such interactions.

It's all in my view an earthly concept, not eternal.

reply to post by MamaJ


Can a thought arise and be known any other time but now?
It is the now that is k nowing. Now is the k nowing space for all appearances to appear and be known.

You are not 'becoming' in time. You already are.
You are the constant knowing presence.

reply to post by MamaJ


Listen to this, it may blow your mind.
youtu.be...

The mind is time. Time is mind.
Mind is just thoughts appearing presently that speak of another time. Stories told presently that say there can't be just this.
But what if you realized that there is just this and nothing else?

It is very scary for the mind but such a relief for the being.

You can think and believe you are a person in time or you can know you are timeless being.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Listen to this if you want to blow your mind.
youtu.be...

The mind is time. Time is mind.
Mind is just thoughts appearing presently that speak of another time. Stories told presently that say there can't be just this.
But what if you realized that there is just this and nothing else?

It is very scary for the mind but such a relief for the being.

You can think and believe you are a person in time or you can know you are timeless being.

edit on 16-9-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

For the experience of life to be alive one must live in the now. This is what I learned in my teens and Buddha taught me.

The past is a ghost and the future a dream but the now is alive, embrace it.

Those are earthly concepts how to enjoy life to the fullest in a state of being where time is projected.

I totally understand and live that way of life.

In the literal concept of time, I see it differently.

A state of being outside of time is without projection of said time and this is our true nature.

We live in a projected illusion.

If I didn't have to rush my kids to and from, if they didn't have school and I didn't have to work then Life in the now would be a piece of cake. Lol

All I can do while projected in time though is to stay calm and remember who " I am ", " all the time".

I don't hold onto the past, it's a teacher.

I don't look for tomorrow as it is already found within my existence as an evolving state of mind and or soul.

When or if tomorrow comes I will contemplate in the now.

reply to post by MamaJ


What is here and now is seen and known always. The aware presence is always present overseeing - the now is aware. It sees and knows the thought bubbles that appear with writings of yesterday or tomorrow, if it does not realize that it is just a thought bubble (a story) it could get emotional about the story and totally believe the fabrication (imagination).
When you find that you are always here and now just seeing thought bubbles arise they don't take your attention from the nowness that you are.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
I have no disagreement with any of this, except for the idea that the entire Universe can blink in and out of existence simultaneously. While yes it is possible that every atom across all of time and space did decide to cruise down an Everett Tree at the same exact instant, this is highly unlikely. But, aside from that, I have no interest in Creationism, as I neither believe in a single Creator, nor think if one did exist we would know It in any way, shape, or form.

Outside of that, I only believe in a cyclical nature to existence. Specifically, that the atoms present in the Universe will eventually realign themselves, as per Poincare's Recurrence Theorem, and that that event will be the restart of the Universe. Maybe it coincides with a Big Rip, a Big Freeze, or a Big Crunch, I don't really know.

And since I won't be alive to see it, I don't tend to work myself up over these types of things.

~ Wandering Scribe

I can see your point, but the one part of it that I have a hard time agreeing with is that this suggests our universe is isolated from anything outside of it and would just expand and shrink over and over. This, like so many other scenarios, keeps going back to the chicken or the egg.

Since we do know that at the quantum level that matter can just blink in and out of existence, what would happen to an entire universe that has collapsed in on itself down to the size of a quark or gluon? Could it just blink out of existence too, could another universe just blink into existence? With this scenario we are not stuck in a logic loop nor is the universe capsulated in some kind of forever pattern that suggests no beginning or end.

reply to post by TarzanBeta


I truly enjoyed reading your thoughts in this posts.
I have a question based on one of your thoughts.

There will be no memory of the former time

If we are destined to have no memory of the former time then how can we be rewarded after judgement day?
Excuse me if I am misreading what you are attempting to say.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by MamaJ

 

What is here and now is seen and known always. The aware presence is always present overseeing - the now is aware. It sees and knows the thought bubbles that appear with writings of yesterday or tomorrow, if it does not realize that it is just a thought bubble (a story) it could get emotional about the story and totally believe the fabrication (imagination).
When you find that you are always here and now just seeing thought bubbles arise they don't take your attention from the nowness that you are.

I see this comcept above as God being the eternal thinker. In that sense, it makes perfect sense.

I'm not God. Are you? Do you think we are God and one in the same with all laws the same? No difference at all?

I see this concept as a goal whereas we don't think of god but with god. The ultimate goal for the soul is to think with him and not of him.

I'm still open though. It makes sense but not in the same sense as you make it? I hope I just made sense to you as it does to me. See?

reply to post by Xtrozero


Could the chicken and egg not pop Into existence simultaneously?

Split from itself into two?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Since we do know that at the quantum level that matter can just blink in and out of existence, what would happen to an entire universe that has collapsed in on itself down to the size of a quark or gluon?

I'm not aware of any evidence that "matter can just blink in and out of existence", but, even if that were the case, one can't apply quantum behaviour to macro scale phenomena. Even if the universe collapsed in on itself, it is the density that changes, not the component matter, so quantum behaviour does not apply.