The ONE question I have never been able to answer....can You help? (To Creationists and Evolutionist

Originally posted by eleven44
Okay, this is literally one of the first 'philosophical' questions I remember asking myself, even as a very young child (probably around 5 or 6.)

'How did all of this begin?'

I do believe in God now (and did as a young child too, although I have never been 'religious.)
So let's assume that, as the spiritual teachings go, God is Infinite. God has no beginning and no End. Time is an illusion. Physical reality is an illusion. All that ever has and ever will be is happening right Now.
Okay, cool. I can dig that.

BUT WHAT STARTED IT??

I mean...how did 'God' come in to existence. And again, I know the rhetoric is 'God has no beginning and no End.' But seriously serious here, how is that possible? I don't believe our little human brains can grasp the idea.
But that has never stopped me from trying.

Where does time start and finish, where does the universe stop.
What were you before you were born and did you just become existence, self aware...How?

Its called faith, cant pretend its anything else than that. We are finite, we dont understand, we cant.
If God is real and I believe He is, then thats His problem. My faith is in Him.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by MamaJ

 

The big bang was the expansion of a singularity, not an atom. It also did not become positive and negative (as in protons and electrons). It became all matter of existence at one time (the 12 quarks and leptons: up, down, strange, charmed, etc). So the Biblical creation myth is less about creation and more just a rehash of the Sumerian myth of Nuddimud and Ninmah in the land of Dilmun, which I just recounted on another thread here.

As for science, science was not "created," it was understood. The laws of science are the only truly infinite things. They have no beginning because they will always effect things in the same way. God did not invent science, man discovered the laws of science by studying the mechanisms of the Universe. I have no problem believing we are the mind of God, but I do have a problem believing we just "invent" scientific laws. It doesn't work that way. We cannot say: "let there be electromagnetism," and suddenly there is. We can only discover it having already always been there.

As for "now," just because we cannot measure it, does not mean it did not occur. It simply means it occurred at a rate which our current science cannot yet ascertain. Every now becomes a then, and every yet-to-be will happen soon enough.

~ Wandering Scribe

If you see things in another light, that's fine with me, no biggie.

Our current science is that which derived AND understood ( sometimes) from our ancient history. Not only am I aware of its history but also the major contributions and discoveries, including the latest. So we could probably have a meeting with the mind on science, however not with spirituality as I combine the all and you don't.... Again... Lol..... No biggie.

I'm more into the hermetic / thoth philosophy and that of others including Jesus ( as you probably have observed) they are the same to me.

So, with that said I will most definitely see science had a beginning in thought.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by eleven44

 

Why does there have to be a beginning? Circles don't begin, they just simply always are.

Because, as I noted, cosmological observations have demonstrated that the universe is no cyclical. It will have and end (and not a very pleasant one, lol,) so therefore it also had a beginning.

reply to post by adjensen


The "ending" (called the Big Crunch) is just another beginning, as tightly packing all of matter into a singularity almost without a doubt ensures it will "begin" again (another Big Bang). The Universe doesn't have to be a sphere (although it most likely is, as expansions tend to occur in equal measure in all directions), but it's mode of existence can be cyclical in nature: a Big Bang, matter slows down, matter begins to collapse inward, a Big Crunch, repeat.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by MamaJ


I'm very familiar with your spiritual views, MamaJ. I was raised in Wicca and studied under my local chapter of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Temple of Ptah) for many years. I'm quite familiar with Theosophy, and the idea of Ceremonial Magick. In all honesty, that was where my intense interest in Egyptian, and then West Asian mythology and Mystery Schools first came from. When I realized that Hermetic philosophy "bent the rules" to make their philosophies make sense though, I left.

I'm much happier looking for actual scientific explanations for my spiritual beliefs, instead of pop-physics and Quantum New Age woo. I know my path is not for everyone though. The discoveries I've made surprised even you, when I talked with you very briefly about them where you inquired about my sources as you hadn't come across the information I presented. So, I say we both just go our own individualized ways. If and when you're ready to embrace in-depth science—which requires letting go of the possibility of a being without form and dimension, who simultaneously has all forms and all dimensions—then I wish you luck in your explorations.

I'd very much like a meeting of the minds on science sometime. Spirituality mixed with science is fascinating. Infinitely more fascinating than out-of-context and misunderstood Quantum Mechanics from movies like "What the Bleep Do We Know?!"

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by adjensen

 

The "ending" (called the Big Crunch) is just another beginning, as tightly packing all of matter into a singularity almost without a doubt ensures it will "begin" again (another Big Bang). The Universe doesn't have to be a sphere (although it most likely is, as expansions tend to occur in equal measure in all directions), but it's mode of existence can be cyclical in nature: a Big Bang, matter slows down, matter begins to collapse inward, a Big Crunch, repeat.

~ Wandering Scribe

Sorry, you're a bit behind the curve. Observations of the Hubble have shown that expansion is increasing, meaning that there will be no "Big Crunch", rather a "Big Rip".

Details in my thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by eleven44


You can't grasp the idea of an entity without a beginning or end. I can't. But it makes sense in theory. The idea of time or beginning or end may as well be constants in this universe but meaningless outside of it. Because God exists apart from this universe, he need not have any of the laws or constants that we know apply to him. Its easy to say and it is logical enough, but to explain it is impossible, because we are here, we have nothing to conceptualize it with. God is a mystery.

reply to post by eleven44


If you start with a infinite absolutely empty space. You can ask your self: can this space evolve all by it self?
Can there be any evolution in such a space?

Scientifically the answer would be no. A absolute infinite empty space can not evolve and it will never change.

Mathematically a absolute infinite empty space would be considered to be a absolute constant.

Before any thing was formed, space would be absolutely empty. Because there is absolutely nothing within this space.

Since there is nothing "within" this infinite absolute empty space. You have to look at the infinite empty space and what properties it must have to form something within it self.

I'm going to try to put my thoughts into words...So, bear with me....

When we try to think outside the box and imagine, God, we constantly run into multiple paradoxes.
The reason that we do this, is because every thought that we ponder is intertwined with time.
This very reason is why we can't understand the Creator.

Let me give you an example. Imagine this...

Think back to the big bang. Try to picture, "nothing". And then suddenly, everything racing out from a singularity to become the known Universe. Well, where did this singularity exist if there was nothing?
It had to come from a starting point, according to science, right?
But, if nothing existed, how could the singularity exist?

OK. Now go back further, in your mind. God, has always been, right?

Before man, before stars and planets, before the whole Universe...What was God doing before all of this? Way before, like a trillion Universal lives, ago? Was He just alone?

So, at some point, He created everything we know. But, being All-Knowing, He knew He was going to create us, and all of this. Why did He wait? But, God doesn't require "time" in anything that He does. So, an instant, is the same as an eternity, to God, right? Did God require thought prior to Creation? No. There is no need for thought, if One is all-knowing! What would there be to think about?

Could we call it, desire? God decided He would like to create a Universe full of stuff. Most of this stuff is invisible but some can be quantified by the beings that He created with it. What is the purpose of all of this stuff and these beings? Why do these beings struggle with their own existence and purpose?

Maybe we are an experiment. But an all-knowing God would already know how the experiment would turn out! So, that can't be it.

What if we are here, to figure out why we are here? What if the gift of the Creator, was that of Consciousness, not existence?
What if each of us, is one of the fallen ones, that chose Lucifer's side and secretly despised God? What if, this is our opportunity to redeem ourselves in His eyes, and reclaim our rightful place in Eternity? Having been stripped of all knowledge of our sins, and placed on this rock, to figure out why we turned our backs on Eternal Love, and joined with the wicked one. One chance at redemption, because that's what a truly Loving God, would do...

Maybe this is why we have such a profound sense of time? We must remember. We have to "humble" ourselves and ask for His forgiveness. He has shown us that it can be done. Jesus proved that.

Like the adage, "Out with the old and in with the new". This is our trial. This planet can be our grave or it can be our proving grounds, and the catalyst back to His side, where we belong...!

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt




What if God created this reality to be in the flesh to experience what its like to be limited and not all knowing?

When it comes to time. Our existence proves that Time must exist for God as well. God is infinite but that does not mean there is no time. Its just means there are no physical changes.

reply to post by adjensen


My problem with the Expanding Universe theory, is that it might just be a normal stage of the Contracting Universe theory. Now, I'm not sure if this has been addressed by Big Rip supporters, but, "expansion" is a stage in the Contracting Universe theory.

Big Bang
Massive Expansion
Slowing down and cooling
Massive Collapse
Big Crunch

So, who's to say the expansion physicists and astronomers noted, is not the expansion of the Universe before it cools off and then begins to crunch? The dark energy and dark matter which is so important to Big Rip theorists, might even be the slowing down and cooling off which Big Crunch theorists theorize. Nobody really knows, and anyone who claims they do, has a Nobel prize waiting for them, along with radically changing our understanding of the Universe.

I just think it's a little rash to say: "the Contracting Universe theory—which contains a massive expansion—is wrong, because there's a massive expansion happening!"

Personally, I'd like to go out in a vacuum metastability event.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

What if God created this reality to be in the flesh to experience what its like to be limited and not all knowing?

When it comes to time. Our existence proves that Time must exist for God as well. God is infinite but that does not mean there is no time. Its just means there are no physical changes.

Again, if God is all-knowing, He knows what it is like to be "limited." There would be no need to find out.
Time is a human construct, in that we are the only reasons for it to exist!
God has no need for time. The universe could care less, as well. He has the knowledge of time, but only where we are concerned. Hence the Scriptures' references to how time is different to God than to us. He knows that we view time as a dimension. It's part of everything that we imagine and conceive. But all of it, us included, is already understood, from our begining to our universe's end.

Our purpose, is ours alone. What we have is a chance. A chance to conceive the 'why'. And then to devise a way to fulfill our destiny. That's all.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


That would require an alteration in the laws of physics, which kind of chucks naturalism out of the window.

Current observations say that the "Big Rip" is the end. If you want to propose a different end, you'll need to explain how physics and/or our observations of reality are wrong.

reply to post by eleven44


I'm sure someone has already posted the answer so pardon any redundancy:

Material reality, the universe, is constrained by causality. Every cause has an effect and every effect has a cause. This much is obvious.

The reason the universe is bound by causality is because of time. Time is the measure of changes in matter. Causality, or cause and effect is the result of time.

Consider our Creator's abode (at least according to the Christian mythos) - He is eternal; He inhabits eternity. Well, eternity is not boundless time but is marked by the absence of time.

No time, no need for a cause.

The uncreated cause. It's actually rather elegant when you think about it.

Since our Creator is outside of time, created time itself - He does not require a cause.

Regards,

FTE

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by adjensen

 

The "ending" (called the Big Crunch) is just another beginning, as tightly packing all of matter into a singularity almost without a doubt ensures it will "begin" again (another Big Bang). The Universe doesn't have to be a sphere (although it most likely is, as expansions tend to occur in equal measure in all directions), but it's mode of existence can be cyclical in nature: a Big Bang, matter slows down, matter begins to collapse inward, a Big Crunch, repeat.

~ Wandering Scribe

It is already a quantum fact that matter can appear and disappear in and out of our universe and so the universe can just disappear or reappear too in the same way. Many here want to apply our physics to outside our universe and things just don't work that way. We have time, but that doesn't mean time is outside our universe too.

The truth is the universe doesn't need a God to run or start and doesn't need intelligent design in anyway even though it seems like our universe had some since it is perfect for us. This God is most likely the monkey that is typing to infinity and he just happened to get some letters to line up to what we see as our universe, and an infinite number of other universes are gibberish.

It also safe to say the universe started out as basically all Hydrogen with a small amount of Helium that just happened to be element 1 and 2, and the other 90 elements (including ours) were created in supernovas in the first 5 or so billion years of the universe. We are carbon....an element....nothing too fancy there...we also share DNA with all life on earth so that kind of means all life here is related back to the very start of basic compounds of life, us included.

A God would need to exist before and after our universe AND outside of it all with the absence of time, and that is a tall order to fill. Also, this would be the same God that focused on very micro events on earth, but it seems his day job is creating universes.

One last thing to think about... the matter in our universe has an edge we call background radiation that has been expanding for about 14 billion years from the big bang, but in the very first instance of our universe space/time became infinite.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Wandering Scribe

 

That would require an alteration in the laws of physics, which kind of chucks naturalism out of the window.

Current observations say that the "Big Rip" is the end. If you want to propose a different end, you'll need to explain how physics and/or our observations of reality are wrong.

If the universe doesn't end in a big crunch it still ends as we know it with the lack of gravity as matter continues to expand farther and farther apart.

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Again, if God is all-knowing, He knows what it is like to be "limited." There would be no need to find out.
Time is a human construct, in that we are the only reasons for it to exist!
God has no need for time. The universe could care less, as well. He has the knowledge of time, but only where we are concerned. Hence the Scriptures' references to how time is different to God than to us. He knows that we view time as a dimension. It's part of everything that we imagine and conceive. But all of it, us included, is already understood, from our begining to our universe's end.

Our purpose, is ours alone. What we have is a chance. A chance to conceive the 'why'. And then to devise a way to fulfill our destiny.

Whether we are here or not there is still time in our universe. The movement of our universe from an order state into a chaotic one is time. If the earth blew up there would still be time. Stars would still be born and die as so would other life forms in the universe.

reply to post by adjensen


The "Big Rip" is based on Dark Energy pushing the galaxies of our Universe apart from each other, at a greater force than gravity and inertia can pull them back together. Since we don't actually know yet how Dark Energy works for certain, and the Big Rip theory is only a certainty on super-clusters, there's still a possibility that the Universe will reverse and collapse.

Not that this means I don't think the Big Rip is possible, I think either scenario is just as likely as the other.

What I'm really trying to say is that I don't agree with you thinking the Big Rip is a tried-and-true fact yet. Both are still accepted possibilities for the "ultimate fate of the Universe." I'm going to wait until our understanding of Dark Energy advances enough where there's no more uncertainty before I stake a final claim though.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Xtrozero


I have no disagreement with any of this, except for the idea that the entire Universe can blink in and out of existence simultaneously. While yes it is possible that every atom across all of time and space did decide to cruise down an Everett Tree at the same exact instant, this is highly unlikely. But, aside from that, I have no interest in Creationism, as I neither believe in a single Creator, nor think if one did exist we would know It in any way, shape, or form.

Outside of that, I only believe in a cyclical nature to existence. Specifically, that the atoms present in the Universe will eventually realign themselves, as per Poincare's Recurrence Theorem, and that that event will be the restart of the Universe. Maybe it coincides with a Big Rip, a Big Freeze, or a Big Crunch, I don't really know.

And since I won't be alive to see it, I don't tend to work myself up over these types of things.

~ Wandering Scribe

read the ancient secret of the flower of life by Drunvalo melchizedek


Peace