The ONE question I have never been able to answer....can You help? (To Creationists and Evolutionist

reply to post by TarzanBeta
reply to post by JHill76
reply to post by Trysts
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by MamaJ



Thanks for all the great answers guys, keep 'em coming!
That was the true purpose of my post: to incite dialogue and to get other people who may not have thought much about this before, to chime in and think about it as well.

TarzanBeta - What you wrote was beautiful. You are very spiritually adept. You explained everything that I already know in Spirit, but with an elegance and simplicity that is easily followed. Thank you for taking the time to contribute.

Many others of you too, I can see, have a very peaceful and beautiful relationship with God. This makes me very happy. I honestly expected more people to challenge me or be skeptic of my reference to God than to have so many like-minded individuals respond.
I am glad to see you are out there.

Honestly, again, I wanted to see someone attempt to explain this with science. See, like you said - Trysts - I too believe in the theory of evolution in the sense that matter and organisms change and adapt. We can see this in viruses and bacteria in a very short amount of time. Evolution goes hand in hand with the idea of manifestation and the ever changing state of the universe to continuously embody perfection.

But if you try to apply the same logic of evolution to All That Is...I believe it falls short. Evolution, by my understanding of the definition, has to come from something else. This universe only exists, as many of you have explained as well, in order for Us (thoughts of God) to experience the I AM (That which is God, which is All.) If a tree falls in the woods with no one around to hear it, does it make a sound? No, sound requires an observer. If a universe exists without any one to observe it, does it exist at all? No.

This Dimension is Vibration at its slowest point: physical matter. We have chosen to leave Time Space, in order to experience Space Time in this dimension. Yes, we are Eternal Souls who have had many lifetimes on this plane in order to learn (from experience) the lessons our souls need in order to fully 'understand' God. If God had never created this universe (Uni - One, Verse - Song/Poem) than God would never have known Himself. We could have remained 'perfect,' but we would not have understood what 'perfect' meant. Thus, again, we choose to come here, over and over, often times making soul agreements with soul-mates and soul-tribes, to embed these lessons into our Knowing.

I truly understand and believe this. I see God (and myself) in the eyes of everyone I meet. I see God unfold around me daily. The synchronicities, the messages, the impeccable timing, the ever pervasive love and the divine order of it all...it is humbling to say the least.

I may have overplayed my confusion about it all earlier, but again, thank you for all who have responded. This dialogue was my main goal.

But...even still...and I understand this is my limited Ego speaking...but...How? When did God 'decide' to do all of This? (Time is illusion.) Why for us? (Yes, He loves us and needs to experience.) But...still...gr...it's hard to put into words. This flesh. This tongue. These fingers... I don't doubt. I have faith. It's just...evasive. And that's okay too. My brain enjoys the mystery.

Breathe. Release. Receive. It is all happening.

This Dimension is Vibration at its slowest point: physical matter. We have chosen to leave Time Space, in order to experience Space Time in this dimension. Yes, we are Eternal Souls who have had many lifetimes on this plane in order to learn (from experience) the lessons our souls need in order to fully 'understand' God. If God had never created this universe (Uni - One, Verse - Song/Poem) than God would never have known Himself. We could have remained 'perfect,' but we would not have understood what 'perfect' meant. Thus, again, we choose to come here, over and over, often times making soul agreements with soul-mates and soul-tribes, to embed these lessons into our Knowing.

reply to post by eleven44


Science in my view is the Science of Life, but I'm sure you already KNOW this.

I'm glad to see another like minded individual too!!! Xoxox

Jenn

I truly understand and believe this. I see God (and myself) in the eyes of everyone I meet. I see God unfold around me daily. The synchronicities, the messages, the impeccable timing, the ever pervasive love and the divine order of it all...it is humbling to say the least.

reply to post by eleven44


This revelation you speak of when had is truly an awakening! I'm soooooo happy for you!

You awaken to God in his own nature of all things and see each as the one.

Even an object emits electromagnetic radiation!

reply to post by Visitor2012


Yes, I am familiar with that concept (and saw a great video/cartoon of it on youtube a while back which you may have seen as well?)
Thanks for bringing it up. Great point.

Again, I am aware this is all my ego speaking, but it still baffles me! I let it go, I receive and go with the flow. I have those moments (daily now) of clarity and gratitude and Oneness that fill me randomly (usually they fill me until I burst with laughter or smiles.) But this darn 'logic' that we have just keeps at it! It will subside. I know what you have spoken is truth. There is no backwards or forwards with time, just as there is no forwards or backwards to a 'flat lander.'

But, with that said: I am humbled by my ignorance and revel in my pursuit for knowledge, for we truly are here to experience. We came from Perfection, there is no need to worry about being perfect here.

And actually...this all just reminds me of what I read the other night in the book, "Only Love is Real," by Brian Weiss M.D.

"...It is important to experience in the first plane rather than to abstract and intellectualize about the higher planes. Eventually you will have to experience them all...Your task is to teach of experience - to take that which is belief and faith and transform it into experience so that the learning is complete, because experience transcends belief. Teach them to experience. Remove their fear. Teach them to love and to help others - this is what you must do on your plane."

reply to post by eleven44


Adjensen said this and I too believe this to be true from the knowledges I've gathered throughout the years in regards to science.

Both evolution and creationism are right, within their own right.

Here is what adjensen said...

The only theory that I've come up with is that the universe was in a pre-Big Bang state that consisted of nothing, including the laws of physics and all the energy, and then something happened which created something, including the laws of physics. By being in a state that did not include the fundamental laws of reality, something could have happened to kick it off, but what that something was, how it worked, and why we have the universe that we do, that's something that's impossible to know, and pointless to speculate about.

This happening above is not the beginning of God though for he has no time relation.... We use it in science to measure that which we do not understand.

This above, to me, also explains the " time" when Adam split ( atom splitting, rememebr that time in history as it was literal) and the two became positive and negative energies from the same soul and spirit. This leads to the as above so below.... Or a mere " reflection" of the same soul.

Each word then, or vibration sent out, has different " degrees" of meaning. High to medium to low. Literal, metaphysical, and spiritual. Its the same.... But different degrees. Hahaha.... Now harmonics comes to mind.

Originally posted by eleven44
reply to post by TarzanBeta
reply to post by JHill76
reply to post by Trysts
reply to post by TarzanBeta

 

Thanks for all the great answers guys, keep 'em coming!
That was the true purpose of my post: to incite dialogue and to get other people who may not have thought much about this before, to chime in and think about it as well.

TarzanBeta - What you wrote was beautiful. You are very spiritually adept. You explained everything that I already know in Spirit, but with an elegance and simplicity that is easily followed. Thank you for taking the time to contribute.

Many others of you too, I can see, have a very peaceful and beautiful relationship with God. This makes me very happy. I honestly expected more people to challenge me or be skeptic of my reference to God than to have so many like-minded individuals respond.
I am glad to see you are out there.

Honestly, again, I wanted to see someone attempt to explain this with science. See, like you said - Trysts - I too believe in the theory of evolution in the sense that matter and organisms change and adapt. We can see this in viruses and bacteria in a very short amount of time. Evolution goes hand in hand with the idea of manifestation and the ever changing state of the universe to continuously embody perfection.

But if you try to apply the same logic of evolution to All That Is...I believe it falls short. Evolution, by my understanding of the definition, has to come from something else. This universe only exists, as many of you have explained as well, in order for Us (thoughts of God) to experience the I AM (That which is God, which is All.) If a tree falls in the woods with no one around to hear it, does it make a sound? No, sound requires an observer. If a universe exists without any one to observe it, does it exist at all? No.

This Dimension is Vibration at its slowest point: physical matter. We have chosen to leave Time Space, in order to experience Space Time in this dimension. Yes, we are Eternal Souls who have had many lifetimes on this plane in order to learn (from experience) the lessons our souls need in order to fully 'understand' God. If God had never created this universe (Uni - One, Verse - Song/Poem) than God would never have known Himself. We could have remained 'perfect,' but we would not have understood what 'perfect' meant. Thus, again, we choose to come here, over and over, often times making soul agreements with soul-mates and soul-tribes, to embed these lessons into our Knowing.

I truly understand and believe this. I see God (and myself) in the eyes of everyone I meet. I see God unfold around me daily. The synchronicities, the messages, the impeccable timing, the ever pervasive love and the divine order of it all...it is humbling to say the least.

I may have overplayed my confusion about it all earlier, but again, thank you for all who have responded. This dialogue was my main goal.

But...even still...and I understand this is my limited Ego speaking...but...How? When did God 'decide' to do all of This? (Time is illusion.) Why for us? (Yes, He loves us and needs to experience.) But...still...gr...it's hard to put into words. This flesh. This tongue. These fingers... I don't doubt. I have faith. It's just...evasive. And that's okay too. My brain enjoys the mystery.

Breathe. Release. Receive. It is all happening.

edit on 15-9-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-9-2012 by eleven44 because: this and that for clarity sake

Ironically, the answer to your question is within the last sentence you wrote. "it is all happening". It is all happening. Nothing can ever 'happened', and nothing can ever 'will happen'. There is no action that can ever allow you to did something, nor is there an action that would allow you to 'will do' something.

When the illusion of death is removed from our "understanding", we will know the reality that nothing ever ends. Since one implies the other, the concept of beginning naturally will fade away. Revealing truth.

It's mankinds search for the answer to your question, that births terms like I Am, Everlasting, Infinity. Etc.

Infinity can not be given a final value, as such, it can not be given a beginning value. In reality , infinity is completely unrelated to values. No beginning and no ending, is completely unrelated to future and past.

reply to post by ZeroReady


Oh, and I'll also point out that "infinity" (as regards time) is one directional -- time going on forever. If it was infinite on the other end (before us) this time would not, could not and would never exist. "Eternal" is a different matter, because eternity isn't infinite time, it is the state of no time. No beginning, no ending, and nothing to measure in between.

reply to post by eleven44


Why does there have to be a beginning? Circles don't begin, they just simply always are.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by eleven44

 

Why does there have to be a beginning? Circles don't begin, they just simply always are.

~ Wandering Scribe

Totally agree, time does not have to be in a straight line. Time is a sphere for earth and allows for the scientific mind to measure.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by ZeroReady

 

Oh, and I'll also point out that "infinity" (as regards time) is one directional -- time going on forever. If it was infinite on the other end (before us) this time would not, could not and would never exist. "Eternal" is a different matter, because eternity isn't infinite time, it is the state of no time. No beginning, no ending, and nothing to measure in between.

Very well said!!

" Eternal" minds/ mind is a beautiful concept in its own right.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by eleven44

 

Why does there have to be a beginning? Circles don't begin, they just simply always are.

~ Wandering Scribe

Well said, but let me play devils advocate just for fun:

I can draw a circle. The circle may not have a beginning or end itself dealing with line or linearity. But, in truth, the circle began when I thought of drawing it. Then I had to draw it. Then the circle existed. But it wasn't until after I took action (after previously not taking action) that the circle existed and the analogy 'circles have no beginning or end' can...well..begin.

I suppose what I'm wondering is...'when' did God decide to pick up the pen? 'When' did he draw the circle? 'What' was God doing 'before' he drew the circle? And...where did God get the pen?
^I know these questions are rhetorical and meant only to be theorized about...but they are still in my brain.

reply to post by eleven44


That's the beauty of the circle, just because you began it, does not mean it was not already always there. When you "begin" a circle, it can only move in one direction, either clockwise or counterclockwise. So, inevitably it comes up "behind you," or from the direction you're not going. When it overlaps, just just become a single point in the whole thing, no more or less significant than any other individual who decides to draw the circle. The circle is there whether we're aware of it, or not.

Sophistry aside, here's the best answer I can give you:

Existence is circular, we become, we are, we collapse, and then aren't. In our collapse we become again, and so on and so forth. There's nothing spiritual or religious about it. Modern science can account for a big bang, a big crunch, and a big restart. So, all of our concepts of God and spirituality are just that: ideas, philosophies, and cerebral entertainment. There is no God, because there does not need to be a God. Existence can maintain itself without His hand.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by MamaJ


Infinity does go both ways though... in fact, infinity works in three directions: forward, backward, within.

If I am at the "present moment" then there is an infinite amount of time ahead of me. At least if you accept that the Universe is infinite there is, but modern science suggests the Universe is finite, so time as well would be. That's a different topic though!

At the same time as there being infinite time ahead of me, there would have to be infinite time before me. If time, from me, can go on forever, then time from someone born 12 years after me must also be infinite, but, if my time is infinite, and their time is infinite, and my time is before their time, then time before my own must also be infinite.

If you believe there are infinite hours ahead of you, there must also be infinite hours behind you. That is simply the nature of the infinite.

Similarly, we can break our measurement of time down infinitely: between this moment and the next we have 1 second, but that one second is X-amount of milliseconds, and each of those milliseconds is X-amount of nanoseconds. Each of those nanoseconds is X-amount of picoseconds. Ad infintum.

Time goes forever forward, and backwards, and well as forever right now.

Not that time and infinity are related. Eternity is actually the time-construct of infinity, which is a philosophic concept.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


You can never be at a " present moment" though. It allows you to understand the word now or present moment, but the concept is not in my view literal as the present moment is already passed even with a mere thought of now... Its already passed.

Time is a way to measure in a plane that requires the usage of such.

Eternal requires no time.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by eleven44

 

That's the beauty of the circle, just because you began it, does not mean it was not already always there. When you "begin" a circle, it can only move in one direction, either clockwise or counterclockwise. So, inevitably it comes up "behind you," or from the direction you're not going. When it overlaps, just just become a single point in the whole thing, no more or less significant than any other individual who decides to draw the circle. The circle is there whether we're aware of it, or not.

Sophistry aside, here's the best answer I can give you:

Existence is circular, we become, we are, we collapse, and then aren't. In our collapse we become again, and so on and so forth. There's nothing spiritual or religious about it. Modern science can account for a big bang, a big crunch, and a big restart. So, all of our concepts of God and spirituality are just that: ideas, philosophies, and cerebral entertainment. There is no God, because there does not need to be a God. Existence can maintain itself without His hand.

~ Wandering Scribe

That requires a school of thought that would require science to have never been created in a material world. God is the creator of science and all there is with his eternal mind which we are a part of.

It's all the same but different ways of understanding the same.

The big bang was atom splitting away from itself and all there was in the beginning of time of man. Adam( mankind) split from positive to being positive and negative.

For a scientific mind such as mine, it makes perfect, logical sense in so many ways.

Science is the science or discovery of life. Everywhere the physicist looks, there is life. He seeks.

Religion is the faith in life/ Jesus/ personal deity

My personal discovery is with all things making the connection. Thanking God for it is also thanking science and all nature of which god projects.

It paints a beautiful portrait.

reply to post by eleven44


And yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, and you are the potter. We all are formed by your hand.
Isaiah 64:8

No Human, This side of Eternity Can Honestly Answer This Question!

For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9

Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure; Isaiah 46:10

“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.” Revelation 4:11

reply to post by MamaJ


The big bang was the expansion of a singularity, not an atom. It also did not become positive and negative (as in protons and electrons). It became all matter of existence at one time (the 12 quarks and leptons: up, down, strange, charmed, etc). So the Biblical creation myth is less about creation and more just a rehash of the Sumerian myth of Nuddimud and Ninmah in the land of Dilmun, which I just recounted on another thread here.

As for science, science was not "created," it was understood. The laws of science are the only truly infinite things. They have no beginning because they will always effect things in the same way. God did not invent science, man discovered the laws of science by studying the mechanisms of the Universe. I have no problem believing we are the mind of God, but I do have a problem believing we just "invent" scientific laws. It doesn't work that way. We cannot say: "let there be electromagnetism," and suddenly there is. We can only discover it having already always been there.

As for "now," just because we cannot measure it, does not mean it did not occur. It simply means it occurred at a rate which our current science cannot yet ascertain. Every now becomes a then, and every yet-to-be will happen soon enough.

~ Wandering Scribe

Pondering and thinking about this question is no way to take action to find truth. Not even any kind of truth for that matter. A truth is something with no theories, no pondering, it simply exists as the clouds in the sky. To seek the truth is not to ponder whether what came first or what came last. The truth is in your very existence, the moment you became conscious of even thinking about it all. You feel the need that the truth of others ( evolution and creationism) has to be right since it is socially accepted. If that must be the reason you believe in such things, then here is my truth.

Life is complementary not contradictory, the Creation is never complete but continually Evolves.

In my truth, if not accepting these truths you will just continue being a dog endlessly chasing it's tail.

Ouroboros

God is so great and powerful..

reply to post by TarzanBeta


Er, well he's not actually (if indeed he's not a figment of your imagination) after all it took him 6 whole days to create the heavens and earth and then he needed a whole days rest!. This god of yours can'r beat iron chariots, lost a wrestling match and has only the strength of a unicorn ! .

Sheesh Amen Ra makes your god look like a wimp.

reply to post by trysts


Our Heavenly Father spoke one word and the cosmos were created.

Uni-verse.