Chinese Warships Enter Japanese Waters

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posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


I agree, especially in a society such as theirs. As you said that is another topic, aside from sociological reasons, there are many diplomatic reasons to allow this, even encourage and support it.




posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:28 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by penninja

yeaaaaaaah

all correct

But it feels wrong, we have quite a few battle groups stationed around the gulf region atm, then there is always NK

Quite an over extension of our forces if we have to fight on several fronts, while I doubt it will happen for many obvious reasons. Fighting on the Korean Peninsula, simultaneous attacks on Japan from both NK and China via missile, action in the ME if Egypt comes in from the West of Israel and engagement in Iran would be quite a set of fronts for us to handle, now maybe add in Russian aggression in the direction of Europe plus aid in the Pacific... we'd be overextended.


We could fight the entire world on every front possible and still win. Every country in the world combined can not come close to matching the US Navy. Without defeating our Navy they can not project their forces to our shores.

You seem to be imaging some sort of protracted land war. That would not happen. What would happen is bombing the likes of which has never been witnessed in human history. It's all well and good on inferior foes to limit the scope of engagement and choose targets wisely. These rules would go out the window as soon as a true war started. China would be devestated to such a degree you would not imagine it. I sort of wish a war with China would break out so we could finish them in their infancy, when they do not stand a chance. The loss of human life also means I hope it never happens, though it seems inevitable with their provocative hostile nature.


Yeah... we'd still have to add men on the ground in SK in a major way, we'd have to add men on the ground in the Israeli region and Iran, we''d have to surge in Afghanistan and that's without getting into Russian possibilities

I'd agree we'd win in combat

But there'd be no way we'd get out without a draft a major draft and If I was Chinese that's what i'd want to cause the only chance of a WIN would be American revolution.

So if it was ME, I'd move heavy into SK, I'd bombard Taiwan and Japan too to really EFF around with the US Economy force me on the ground on the Peninsula where even with our 10-1 kill ratio the Chinese could field so many men and bleed us into a draft, I'd Move into Afghanistan with Numbers and bring Pakistan in and do it ALL conventionally so we are shamed into not using nukes

Creation of a draft would be the American Achilles heel I would aim for

They are smart, the lesson to learn from the USA would be this... You don't need to Win you need to accomplish objectives.

Defeat the USA, no, never even attack the mainland... cause loss, cause revolt via draft and make the small gains, force us to leave grab SK back, take our beach head, get us out of the ME, sacrifice Iran as the pawn they are but get rid of Israel and end the American presence

In a loss they could burn us economically and get rid of us for good on 2 fronts maybe, over the next 20 years that's a big power shift... That's what i'd do

In Martial arts it's called a sacrifice, take a punch in the face to get an arm open for a break later



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:34 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


See, you are not thinking properly. Soldiers are not needed. Especially if you are willing to kill 50% of the civilian population. America's weakness is not the draft, it's our citizens disdain for casualties of war. That disdain would disappear given a good enough reason. We have the MOAB which is a conventional weapon with an 11ton yield. Drop one on the top 15 Chinese cities and see what happens.

Carpet bomb every city until it's rubble. They have no airforce to stop us and their navy is laughable. As their cities surrender I imagine they will willingly supply us with all the troops we need, supply them with food, shelter, and arms. After a few cities burn the government will have rebellions, we can use that to our advantage. There will be no 20 years, China would be gone from the face of the map in months if not weeks.

It's ugly, but does not need much in the way of ground forces.
edit on 14-9-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:44 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
I actually have had this thought for years. Japan is a staunch ally. Germany has been rearmed, why not Japan?


Japan has a perfectly capable defence force. It would be severely problematic for China to fight Japan on their turf in the defensive role they are configured for.

On the OP. The islands are administered by Japan, but Taiwan and China also claim them. No doubt the existence of oil in the region helps motivate China assert (yet another) territorial claim.

Regards



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by penninja
 


See, you are not thinking properly. Soldiers are not needed. Especially if you are willing to kill 50% of the civilian population. America's weakness is not the draft, it's our citizens disdain for casualties of war. That disdain would disappear given a good enough reason. We have the MOAB which is more powerful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima I believe, and it is a conventional weapon. Drop one on the top 15 Chinese cities and see what happens.


I'd agree they very well might underestimate the resolve of the American public.

But if you read the Internet which in the end would be your best reflection of the current State of the american public, War Weariness would seem very high, you have a president in office that despite American might seems willing to hold back and go for diplomacy and peace and is demonstrating that via Israel right now.

While I am sure the Internet reflection is very liberal from it you could easily feel as if half the american public is siding with Islam and feels like America is the big bully

Today i read more than a few posts where people were very vehement in regards to China "should do it the jpas would deserve it the rape of Nanjing..."

I feel like Cyber warfare is not looking like security experts think it will....the War for the American Mind seems to be in full effect via proxy posts if you know what I mean and a lot of Americans seem to be lapping it up.

Many ways to play this, even in Korea in the 50's, we never bombed Chinese cities... a simultaneous NK move into SK and Iranian move that brings us in on the ground following the playback of the last engagement would certainly cause a draft and in the end China could very well play it as American intervention on their turf (Afghanistan and NK) field a lot of men to bleed us and EXPECT we wont hit their cities because in the past they did the same and we did not.

If the Korean peninsula is destroyed if NK uses the Nukes and we blast them, it will inevitably become China's, If Israel is lost our pretext for being in the ME goes away...

I'd play it in just the way it seems to be playing... America the aggressor, America shouldn't be there, America is on our borders...

With Seoul nuked by Nk for example and ditto for Israel... we can wreck their Navy all we want and they surrender... but we'd be off their continent for good.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:55 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


I agree. What about World War 2? The public was completely not interested ... until America was attacked. We have war weariness because we do not see an enemy, we don't see the benefit, we aren't feeling the "sting". Japan woke the sleeping Dragon, the Dragon is asleep once more, but he is still there. If China woke him up we would unleash our wrath upon them, Americans have little love for China and small amounts of rhetoric would go a long way.

Of course as things stand now the public would never support a war. It would take an event.

As to being off their continent.. Japan is close enough. The reality is we would own China, and would install a handpicked government. We would be on their continent forever. We might even let India annex parts of it, in fact I am sure we would.
edit on 14-9-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 04:56 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


Don't get me wrong you are correct in what we COULD and SHOULD do in the event.

But we are on 60years straight of not fighting this way it is not impossible to suggest that Chinese military leaders would work on the assumption they could bog us down, even in iraq we called in via cell phones to tell people to get out of the buildings.

There is something else Americans at least some get weak in the knees for these days... The bodies of our enemies on the news.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:00 AM
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Originally posted by penninja
There is something else Americans at least some get weak in the knees for these days... The bodies of our enemies on the news.


Agreed, the destruction of China on the level I am talking would require Americans to feel the pain, such as Pearl Harbor. I think you would quickly see people foam at the mouth at the sight of our dead enemies, it's just human nature. It would require something like 9/11, Pearl Harbor, something that hit Americans down to their core and broiled the rage that is seething underneath.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:05 AM
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All i'm saying is Delphi, Delphi, Delphi

It can be kind of hard these days to argue a pro American view point when Muslims and North Koreans and Chinese post in from European, Canadian and American proxies, doesn't take much... One post, followed by an agreement and then 25 Americans chime in against their own side...

"Hiroshima" "The natives" "at war for a century" "zionist!!!"

Our "friends" overseas seem to be as good at Delphi on the net as the Jews were to TV this past century

I would suggest that the war for the American mind has been in full swing for some time now



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


I believe one "Pearl Harbor" would reverse all of that. Americans love to bitch. They love to have verbal spats. They love to pretend they are so superior they care about the little guys. One attack, that would be gone. Dems and Repubs would sing kumbaya by the campfire even as they roast Chinese babies over a campfire as CNN and Fox journalists compliment each others broadcasting skills.

Slight exaggeration, but the point is there.
Americans hate each other, but give us a reason and we will unite like bff's.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:34 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by penninja
 


I believe one "Pearl Harbor" would reverse all of that. Americans love to bitch. They love to have verbal spats. They love to pretend they are so superior they care about the little guys. One attack, that would be gone. Dems and Repubs would sing kumbaya by the campfire even as they roast Chinese babies over a campfire as CNN and Fox journalists compliment each others broadcasting skills.

Slight exaggeration, but the point is there.
Americans hate each other, but give us a reason and we will unite like bff's.


I do too... complete agreement.

That would assume however your opponent is stupid enough to do that. I think for Asians asymmetrical warfare will take on an entirely different meaning than suicide bombings or attacks.

Look at this today. Psychological warfare. Purely, they didn't do anything, but they did a lot.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

Would be fun to see how Americans try to fire their all weapons full with Chineses computer chips that (surprise) fly to a different location if the GPS coordinates are in Asia...

And if all your reactors go offline and you really have to sit at a campfire to see anything as all those computers are made in China too


To be honest we have to admit that China rules the world. Not just America but also in Europe. It's really hard to find any product that hasn't a 'Made in China' component inside. And who knows what these components will do if they switch them to a hidden operative mode - millions toasted by malfunctioning microwaves in the kitchen...



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:47 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


Perhaps they won't. I think they know their limits, right now it will be bluster with no bravado, and as you said psychological warfare. They won't press us, and without them acting the US population would never sanction true strikes.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by UnixFE
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

Would be fun to see how Americans try to fire their all weapons full with Chineses computer chips that (surprise) fly to a different location if the GPS coordinates are in Asia...

And if all your reactors go offline and you really have to sit at a campfire to see anything as all those computers are made in China too


To be honest we have to admit that China rules the world. Not just America but also in Europe. It's really hard to find any product that hasn't a 'Made in China' component inside. And who knows what these components will do if they switch them to a hidden operative mode - millions toasted by malfunctioning microwaves in the kitchen...


Keep drinking the Kool-Aid. Even if 90% of the munitions were corrupted the remaining 10% would put China back 5,000 years. If China ruled the world they wouldn't be debating these islands, they would belong to China.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:50 AM
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Originally posted by UnixFE
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

Would be fun to see how Americans try to fire their all weapons full with Chineses computer chips that (surprise) fly to a different location if the GPS coordinates are in Asia...

And if all your reactors go offline and you really have to sit at a campfire to see anything as all those computers are made in China too


To be honest we have to admit that China rules the world. Not just America but also in Europe. It's really hard to find any product that hasn't a 'Made in China' component inside. And who knows what these components will do if they switch them to a hidden operative mode - millions toasted by malfunctioning microwaves in the kitchen...


That's waaaaaaaaay overblown, you talk like we are retarded, urban legend bro



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 05:59 AM
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reply to post by penninja
 


Next he will tell us they dont need weapons they will just ask for their debt to be repaid and when we cant they will own America,



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 06:31 AM
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I see a lot of wild speculation by people who seem to think they are military leaders and strategists - you're not. You're failing to take into account about a million possibilities. You cannot predict the future, and that statement is true whether you want to know who you'll marry or who will win a war.

The odds were against the allied forces in WW2, with Germany making significant gains all over Europe, but we still kicked the **it out of them!

People here thinking they know what will happen (and especially those claiming that the almighty USA can fight the world) are incredibly shortsighted.

As for what Obama will do, he'll do nothing.

This is a blip, like the UK sending ships to the Falklands. It's a show of force. There is really nothing for Obama to say.

When something is fired from either site the US will probably release the standard call for calm. Genuine military strategists and think tanks will then be working to decide who's side the US should be on if war breaks out. But, there are a million and one things that will change, and not one person here can say what would happen, or whose side a nation will be on.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by detachedindividual


When something is fired from either site the US will probably release the standard call for calm. Genuine military strategists and think tanks will then be working to decide who's side the US should be on if war breaks out. But, there are a million and one things that will change, and not one person here can say what would happen, or whose side a nation will be on.


America would be on the side of the Japanese.

Period.

China could have taken this to International court. They haven't. That should tell you something.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by penninja

Originally posted by ELectricalApprentice
why does a Chinese boat have english writing on it? that seems kind of weird to me...


You know... I don't know, Japan is understandable, so is SK for obvious reasons, but i've never been to China and I didn't think English was that much of a second language there. I suppose it makes sense give Hong Kong but I had no idea honestly


My guess is because English is somewhat of a universal language. But still truly odd if you ask me.



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by UnixFE
 



Would be fun to see how Americans try to fire their all weapons full with Chineses computer chips that (surprise) fly to a different location if the GPS coordinates are in Asia...


Computer chips don't make orders. Computer code does.

The chips might be corrupted or of bad quality - even if on purpose - but that would only make the bombs less accurate. Don't forget about the GPS on the aircraft that tells the pilot precisely where to drop that bomb.

Besides, you are assuming that the U.S. DoD doesn't know about that. How come you do, and one of the most advanced military forces of the world didn't consider the kind of chips they are importing? Doesn't that seem a bit unrealistic to you?

These guys are very well paid to think of every possible scenario, and if they still consider to buy chinese made materials, it's because they know it won't compromise them, and even if it does compromise them, they also know how much damage would be done to them.


And if all your reactors go offline and you really have to sit at a campfire to see anything as all those computers are made in China too


Yes, the computers are made in China. But you know why? Because we sent them the plans to build them. That should tell you something about their technological abilities.

Using an analogy, what you are saying is basically the same as saying that, just because a guy made a bolt used to build a ship, that guy will know how to explode the ship using that bolt.

Even if they make the computers, they are assembled and configured here, not by them.


To be honest we have to admit that China rules the world.


That's incorrect.

China is dependent of the rest of the world. Their projection of economical dominance is very fragile. They made efforts into being the factories of the world, and forgot about having their own independence. If they don't have clients, they can't function.

And right now, there aren't a lot of clients around the world, due to the economical crisis.

China has shown - for the very first time in, at least, 20 years - a smaller-than-two-digits growth rate. That is alarming.

Not only that, but they were so focused in buying everything around the world, investing and bailing out so many companies, that they own the monopoly, but forgot about having people to play with them. Their economical philosophy may very well backfire in the near future.

Especially if every country in a bad economic situation decides to revert the modern view of industry, and everyone leaves the outsourcing labour option that made China wealthy.


Not just America but also in Europe.


Europe is China's biggest client, not slave. Guess what will happen to China when an alternative market appears?


It's really hard to find any product that hasn't a 'Made in China' component inside.


Yes, but the twist to that argument is that it says "Made in China". I would only be concerned if it would say "Developed in China".


And who knows what these components will do if they switch them to a hidden operative mode - millions toasted by malfunctioning microwaves in the kitchen...


From most of the assembling factories I have seen (that receive made in China parts), they come blank - without any coding in them - which means there isn't anything hiding inside of the components. We are either talking about such mundane thing's that can't possibly be configured, or complex components that are only manufactured by them, not configured and especially, not assembled into a final product.

They usually copy the technology from other countries. I would be very surprised if they were in the front of anything technological...





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