Originally posted by Muaddib
Twitchy this is one of the ignorant claims that quite a few Americans and other people in the world don't seem to have gotten straight....
First, the 9/11 comission and every other agency that investigated this connection have said that there were links between Iraq/Saddam and Al qaeda,
but that there was no direct evidence linking Ira/Saddam with the attacks on 9/11....still Iraq was aiding Al Qaeda members and training them and
Ignorant claims? Oh you must mean the intelligence that indicated that they were a military threat to the western world. LOL Do you mean the proven to
faked documents uranium documents from Nigeria? Or do you mean the Convoys or mobile bioweapons platforms? Every bit of intelligence we had prior to
the Invasion of Iraq pointed to not only no credible links between Iraq and Alqeada, but to little or no offensive capability or stock piles, and
every scrap of it was mandated, not assesed, mandated by the Bush Administration.
You said "every other agency that investigated this connection have said that there were links between Iraq/Saddam and Al qaeda..."
This is a ridiculous statement and represents a very narrow awareness of world events. The only agencies that have demonstrated any connection
betqween Iraq and Alqaeda were once again, mandated by the Bush and Blair administrations. Subsequent investigations were blocked or railroaded
entirely by the whitehouse both before and after 9-11. Let alone Richard Clarke, even the CIA has repeatedly washed it's hands of the WMD's to be
found in Iraq. The only ones still running around trying to claim Iraq had WMD's capable of being a threat to the free world, and that they were
supporting Alqaeda are the rhetoric machines of wartime nationalism. Did you not read my post at all? Have you not read your recent history? After our
first offensive in Iraq we took down an estimated 80% of their military, then 12 years of harsh sanctions and frequent inspections, are you actually
suggesting that Iraq was a threat to us? If we had stayed the hell out of eastern politics instead of manipulating and pissing these peopel off, we
wouldn't have to worry about being targets of international terrorism would we. You are in serious need of some understanding of the forces that
govern our foriegn policies. Believe me, righteousness, spreading democracy, all that sounds nice, but what actually happens is a little more complex.
The american military is not a notable charitable organization, and our reasons for being there are murky and scandalous at best.
Ok let me give you excerpts and see if you can understand the difference...which many people don't seem to understand....
No al Qaeda, Iraq cooperation
The panel said it found "no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."
So did many other sources, UN inspectors familiar with Iraq after 12 years of inspections, US Weapons Inspectors, etc.
The Bush administration has said the terrorist network and Iraq were linked.
Yeah, keep believing Bush... It's a good thing Enron went down before the election or Bushie boy would be campaigning from a Federal Prison.
And if you read the 9/11 comission report you will se clearly that they do say there was an Al Qaeda and Saddam/Iraq link...but no evidence seemed to
point that Iraq/Saddam was involved with Al Qaeda on the attacks on 9/11...
Do you understand the difference?
That's right, a link. Do you understand the difference between a link, and "axis of evil"? The 9-11 comission makes reference to two meetings
between SUSPECTED alqeda agents and the Iraqi Government Officials. Two meetings is a far cry from collusion or even support. Our own intelligence met
with Osama himself more occasions than one would care to recollect, and we have been far more accomodating to the Alqeada folk than Iraq ever thought
of being. The very man that wired Atta 100,000 bucks a few days before 9-11 was meeting with intelligence commitee senators the morning of... Don't
try to hand me that Alqeada/Iraq connection. It was not a safe haven for Alqeada, there were no government sponsored alqeda cells as asserted by the
Bush mandated intelligence. Rumsfeld must feel particularly honored to be the first man to ever arm and support a soverign nation while arming and
supporting their opposition, then a decade or two later, he gets to invade them, hell maybe both of em... Hell of a business war...
Now about no terrorsit camps in Iraq...perhaps you should read the following...that is if you want to get informed.
Salman Pak - Iraq's Own Terrorist Training Camp
Two Iraqi Military defectors, an unnamed former Lt. General and a Captain Sabah Khodada recently gave details of an Iraqi school at Salman Pak which
includes training for the hijacking of passenger airliners and other modes of transportation. The former Iraqi General said that there was a old
Boeing 707 resting next to rail tracks on edge of Salman Pak being used in terrorist training, the existence of this aircraft has been confirmed by
The General, who had been the Security Officer in charge of the camp also reported that there were mixed nationality units including Saudis,
Egyptians and Chechens at Salman Pak. Usually about 40 strong, these terrorist units received upto five months of intensive training. However the
terrorist units were actually under the control of Iraqs Al- Mukhabarat Intelligence Service and in particular a section called the Division of
Special Operations. Much of this was also confirmed by Captain Khodada.
Wow, terrorists camps, in the middle east no less. Do you have any idea how many nations have 'terrorist' training camps? What you and alot of other
misinformed folks seem to fail to grasp, is that these terrorists camps are military training for many opposing Factions, from the Sheite to the
Sunni. What you call a terrorist camp they call militia. If you really want to narrow down the term terrorist camp, you will have to realize that
terror is not a military institution my friend, it's a NOUN. Terrorism is not a soverign nation. If it were we would be held accountable for some of
our own atrocities. A terrorist training camp is a nation bombed into the third world and then exploited by foriegn interests and occupied by a
hostile military, that's your training camps dude.
And if BinLaden was our objective, then why would Bush himself say March 13, 2002 "I don't know where BinLaden is, I have no Idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority". Wake up, neither Afghanistan or Iraq had any links to 9-11. Infact, Israel and
particularly Saudi Arabia were implicated by subsequent investigations as I remeber...(yes remember afghanistan, the taliban we supported while unocal
courted them for the pipeline from halliburton, then when they backed out we threatened to bomb them a few months prior to 9-11? Wow we installed a
UNOCAL consultant as their president...)
..now you would have to post credible evidence about the other rubbish you posted.
Reality check here man, your argument is the one that lacks any evidence what so ever. You post some credible evidence asserting a link between
alqeada and Iraq, or Iraqi stock piles of nukes and anthrax, the GOP would love to hear from you cause they have been looking themselves... You got
some proof worthy of a preemptive invasion and occupation of TWO soverign nationsm then hell your doing ebtter than the CIA and the entire western
world for that matter. Cut off the tv, switch to a non-flouride toothpaste, and skip a flu shot or two and you might catch something other than
what's handed to you by a coporate consoidated media. Follow the money, and read some 80's articles and you will hopefully have a better
understanding of whats going on because your obviously not learning much from these boards if you still contest WMD's and Alqeada connections.
Originally posted by Muaddib
Is this why the Russians among other nations, none of them the US, were selling arms to Iraq up to 2003? and tell me...what kinds of weapons do
terrorists/insurgents have been, and are still using? Are they American weapons and equipment?
Like I said man, read your history, we have sold both Iran and Iraq weapons. We have supplied both nations with logistic support, sattellite and other
intelligence. You forget who put Saddam in power. BinLaden and Carlyle, BinLaden and Bush, Osama Himself was a CIA asset.
Maybe you should have understood that my reference on Russia is that they have been doing worse things than us and yet they can tell the whole world
to stay away from their problem, yet when we attack countries who have supported and kept supporting those who attacked us in one way or another we
can't do # according to you?
I don't know why you keep bringing up Russia, think about that for a minute. Chechzenia(sp?) is a province of the former soviet union the reason they
don't need international support is because Chechzenia(sp?) is a province of the former soviet union. If Texas rose up and declared it's
independence and started shooting do you think for a minute that we wouldn't be bombing them? Leave russia out of it, it is a poor example in
comparison to our record as "police of the world". And yes we can do S*it, but where I'm from we believe in going after those who are actually,
well you know, like uh... RESPONSIBLE for the attack. Even your own media is calling it 'pre-emptive' to counter the lack of credible reasoning
behind the invasions. That is what they are selling and your buying it.
Both of these countries have aided Al Qaeda, and other terrorists and even had terrorist camps that trained these terrorists against western targets.
See below for one of the training terrorist camps in Iraq. The president did say we were going after not only terrorists but those that keep aiding
them....and btw...if you didn't know yet we were able to disarm a nation who had wmd programs and this nation is now telling otehrs to do the
same...Libya....As you can se by this example if there is perseverance we won't need to go after every nation that sponsors terrorism.
Just about every arabic speaking nation in the modern world has at some point crossed paths with Alqeada. We have aided many such groups ourselves.
You live under the paranoid illusion that all arabs are terrorist supporting monsters that are out to destroy your baseball and apple pie, an illusion
perpetuated by manipulative foriegn policy and endless propaganda. They are people, nations, cultures, the only difference between us and them is
military strength, wealth and dependence on foriegn resources. I'm not condoning terrorism, but like all things terrorism is causal, but when you
create a monster, you have to feed it. Lybia? LOL here again you need to read your history, we were duped into attacking Lybia by intercepting decoyed
communications courtesy of Israeli Intel.
BTW....is that why Iraq had Russian tanks and Russian/Chinese, and some other countries' military equipment?
Is this the reason why most if not all of the weapons terrorists use are made by the Russians/Chinese?
BinLaden runs around with an American made anti-tank rifle that was presented to him personally as a gift from us. You seem to think that Arms dealers
are strictly shady terrorism supporting evil folk. The U.S. is hands down the largest exporter of arms in the world. If I bought an AK-47 does that
make me a communist? If I buy a swiss army knife, does that make me a sweede? If I buy US military strains of anthrax or suitcase nuke technology in
clandestine deals with US Intelligence does that make me a terrorist? Hell, I have a japanese sword in my house, but I'm not going to go slicing up
Triad members. The source of their weaponry has little to do with government sponsored terrorism, and yes we have sold Iraq some nastiness ourselves.
Not only this but some of these Russians defectors have said that Russia, among other countries, have sold billions worth of materials and weapns that
were for the military as late as 2002.
Wow you mean despite strict trade sanctions imposed and enforced by a multinational coalition after the first gulf war, "Russia among other
countries" openly defied the world and sold billions worth of materials and weapons? I must have missed that one in the news. Billions of dollars in
weapons, yet they had no organized military offensive or defensive capability? Get real. Iraq was no threat, to assert that there was is ridiculous.
Camels, rifles, improvised esplosives... real world threatening stuff there. They weren't even allowed to buy alot of medical equipment and
industrially critical chemicals, and your trying to say the world sat back and let russia defy openly defy UN sanctions that they voted for?
Just to give you an example of how propoganda works, Let me just sum up the rest of your argument here by quoting a portion your own post...
"We are not talking about a large stockpile of weapons," he said. ...what has happened to it, is a major issue that needs to be resolved."