Looks like the US Ambassador to Libya got exactly what he deserves.

Originally posted by sam_inc
yeah people would show sympathy about a u.s ambassador being killed, but no one shows sympathy were thousands of children are dying in the middle east

Yeah...exactly. The civilians and children who have never done anything except try to live die in the crossfire don't count because they are brown and muslim. However...when a single rich, white, prick who has made a career out spreading chaos and imperialism and is responsible for the brutal deaths of thousands (at a minimum) gets blown up we are supposed to feel bad for the guy.

I think it was on rantburg, or atlas shrugs, where I read that poor guy was raped before being shot, I don't know if its true or not, just going by my daily updates from those two sites.

Originally posted by sam_inc
reply to post by PrestonSpace

 

Americans do not hate America, Americans hate their Government

Precisely.

Well, it looks like the guy was played a dangerous game and paid the price for it.
This seems to prove some of the theories that this was planned AND he was targeted.

Originally posted by redtic
OP, I think you need to change your title. It doesn't jive with what I *think* your message is, which is one of non-interventionism. There are reasons these things happen and US actions have a lot to do with them, but to say someone deserved to die is just plain ridiculous.

No...don't misinterpret my title. I meant exactly what I said. Every single culture, civilization, and major religion in the history of the world has had a concept of "what goes around comes around". Here are just a few examples.

1. "A man reaps what he sows." --Judeo-Christian tradition
2. "He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword." --Judeo-Christian tradition
3. "Kind deeds pay rich dividends, evil is repaid with evil" --Chinese proverb, trans. "善有善報，惡有惡報 (cmn), 善有善报，恶有恶报 (cmn)"
4. The sum total of the Hindu and Buddhist traditions.
5. "Treachery recoils on the traitor" ----Gaelic Proverb, trans. "Filleann an feall ar an bhfeallaire"
6. "What you leave behind you, that you will find in front of you," --Ancient Norse Proverb, trans modern Finnish "minkä taakseen jättää, sen edestään löytää"

...and the list goes on and on.

Karma's a b^tch. That's why it's always best not to start civil wars in other people's countries.

Originally posted by pikestaff
I think it was on rantburg, or atlas shrugs, where I read that poor guy was raped before being shot, I don't know if its true or not, just going by my daily updates from those two sites.

yeah...we might not want to put too much credence on the accuracy of blogs which are entitled "rantburg" and "atlas shrugged"...they might just have a certain political ideology which skews the bias in their reporting.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by milominderbinder
...if I remember correctly from other threads you're a big believer in the Bible...aren't you?

NO. That is incorrect. I have said many times .. there isn't much of 'GOD' in the bible. (IMHO)

This was a good man who was working with the Libyans and trying to save Libyan lives.
THAT is why he was there. He was a family man and an all around nice guy.
He did nothing to 'deserve what he got'. Not a darn thing.

Originally posted by Juggernog
Well, it looks like the guy was played a dangerous game and paid the price for it.
This seems to prove some of the theories that this was planned AND he was targeted.

Yeah...I don't claim to know all of the specifics.

Did a riot break out because of the movie and then the opportunity was seized by someone who lost family members when we helped start up their little civil war? Was the riot instigated as a cover for the this act of retribution? Were BOTH instigated by the Israeli's/Mossad in order to brew up a little more anti-islamic xenophobia because we told Netanyahu to go screw himself?

Who the hell knows.

The point is we can't really be surprised or feel bad for a guy who illegally enters a country filled w/ religious kookery and then proceeds to topple a dictator and start a civil war. Talk about BEGGING to be bombed.

Why not just a paint a target on the side of the embassy with the bullseye depicting the Prophet Muhammad being sodomized by a donkey wearing a yamaka?

Common sense, people. If you don't want other countries to hate you...don't do things that piss them off.

Some peoples memory is so short lived.

I was out there during the Libyan conflict. I'm a short wave radio enthusiast and I was out there in the Persian Gulf on the USS Ronald Reagan during the entire situation, even before the USS Enterprise parked off the coast of Libya.

Daily I would listen to the Rebel Radio via Shortwave (these were previously operated by the Ghadafi government before the rebels took it over) and listen to them ask for NATO / Western help. Daily the rebels would talk (in english) about keeping faith with each other, standing up for a free Libya and hoping that they would gain support from the west and NATO.

The Libyan people and the rebels WANTED AND ASKED for Western intervention. This ambassador that was killed yesterday was senseless - and what you see in those pictures are fact. Ghadafi was equivalent to Saddam - a ruthless dictator - who controlled the media, money and power in that country. You think America has state run media? Well that's questionable but in Libya Ghadafi made no attempt to hide that fact, and was very blatant about it. The people of Libya KNEW they were being oppressed - it wasn't a secret - and they wanted Freedom.

For that matter - if you have never left America's shores then you are not equipped to talk about foreign policy. In my time in the Military, I have visited countries all over the middle east. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jebel Ali, Dubai, Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslims do not hate the West. They love our culture - our freedoms - our way of life. They want it for themselves. What they don't want is OUR GOVERNMENT getting involved in their affairs. If they ask for help, then it's all good. If they don't (which the majority of them haven't) than they want us to stay out of their affairs. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by milominderbinder
...if I remember correctly from other threads you're a big believer in the Bible...aren't you?

NO. That is incorrect. I have said many times .. there isn't much of 'GOD' in the bible. (IMHO)

This was a good man who was working with the Libyans and trying to save Libyan lives.
THAT is why he was there. He was a family man and an all around nice guy.
He did nothing to 'deserve what he got'. Not a darn thing.

Ok...so your saying that that the official bio of Chris Stevens is false? He wasn't a graduate of the National War College? He didn't illegally enter Libya and help start a civil war?

I'll be the first to acknowledge that the media lies frequently and often...but I'm just looking for your source material here that says he isn't, in fact, responsible for creating just a little more of the chaos that is so endemic to the the entire region.

By the way...being a "family man" doesn't mean sh^t. Since the dawn of time dictators and despots have treated their own kids well whilst simultaneously torturing, murdering, and enslaving large numbers of other people. The fact that this guy didn't beat his wife and took his kid to a ball game doesn't make up for the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocents in a country that doesn't in any way, shape, or form belong to him.

Originally posted by billy197300

Originally posted by Nite_wing
If you feel that an American ambassador and his staff got what they deserved, then you are not fellow American of mine so don't pretend to be.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Star for you.

You are so funny guys. Why would the US keep American ambassador in a zone of conflict anyway.

It's the US that try to overthrow governments all over middle east for the Israel Zionist regime
so they can attack Iran so yes you get what you deserve.

This looks like what to you guys




But it's your right to be sad for that guy.. Me i feel sad for anybody that gets gun down by any of the governments.

Now let me tell you how much people did the great US of A killed in a periode of 60 years that those not include Syria and more.

1940s - nuked Japan.
Death toll: 145,000 to date in Nagasaki, 250,000 in Hiroshima

1947-49 - U.S. helps command extreme-right Greece party in Civil War.
Death toll: about 70,000 contributed by US-backed forces

1948-54 - CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion in Philippines.
Death toll: about 11,000

1950 - Independence movement crushed in Ponce, Puerto Rico
Death toll: conservative historians estimated about 8,000 peasants

1950-53 - Korean War
Death toll: about 1,776,000

1952 - CIA overthrows Democracy in Iran, installs Shah
Death toll: about 20,000

1954 - CIA directs invasion of Guatemala after new Democracy there nationalized U.S.-occupied lands
Death toll: about 140,000 missing and dead

1958 - In Lebanon, marine occupation against rebels
Death toll: about 2,000

1960-75+ - Vietnam War including Cambodia and Laos
Death toll: about 4,502,000 including civilians and resulting famines (conservative estimates)

1961 - Cuba's Bay of Pigs Invasion fails
Death toll: about 4,000

1963 - In Iraq, CIA organizes coup against President and agrees to back formerly exiled Saddam
Death toll: about 7,000 including civilians

1964 - In Panama, troops kill protesters against US-owned canal
Death toll: about 1,000

1965 - CIA assists Indonesian coup
Death toll: about 900,000

1966 - Troops and bombers threaten pro-communist parties in Dominican Republic
Death toll: about 3,000

1966-96 - Green berets in Guatemala against rebels, US backs pro-American forces in country until 1996
Death toll: about 200,000

1970 - Directs marine invasion of Oman
Death toll: about 2,000

1973 - CIA directs coup to oust elected Marxist president in Chile
Death toll: 30,000... 3,000 later disappeared under US-installed dictator

1976-92 - CIA assists South-African rebels in Angola
Death toll: median estimate at 550,000

1981-90 - CIA directs Contra invasions in Nicaragua
Death toll: median estimate at 30,000

1982-84 - Marines expel Lebanese rebels, aided by Israel
Death toll: 40,000

1987-88 - US intervenes for Iraq against Iran
Death toll: about 150,000 during time-frame, 100,000 during Desert Storm, 350,000 from resulting famine

1989 - US invades to oust CIA-installed Panamanian government gone rouge
Death toll: 2,000

1992-94 - US-led occupation of Somalia during civil war
Death toll: 50,000 in combat, 300,000 by starvation

2001+ - US Occupies Afghanistan
Death toll: 120,000 including civilians and combatants and resulting Opium Wars

2003+ - Iraqi War
Death toll: 665,000 also by starvation, displacement


TOTAL: 10,431,000

Do you have any compassion for these people?

Star and Flag to the OP for having the stones to start this thread, knowing the reactions of some. In my opinion, a lot of knee- jerk "righteous indignation"is going on here. I feel for the loss of any life, and the waste of human potential, be they American or otherwise. Truth is, America is receiving the blowback that should be expected by our continous meddling in the middle east that has resulted in so many innocent lives lost, its bound to happen.

My heart goes out to the family of the Ambassador killed, the same as my heart has allways been with the families of the hundreds of thousands or more in the middle east who's only crime was being born into a country targeted by the US

reply to post by milominderbinder


I have started to believe that everything was specifically planned, someone made that movie and intentionally released it on 9/11, then proceeded to incite the fanatics into rioting. That gave them an excuse to attack the embassy and assassinate Stevens.
Did he know something he shouldnt have? Did he outlive his usefulness?
The only thing im not sure about is, who created the movie. CIA, Muslim Brotherhood, Israel?

Originally posted by zeeon

The Libyan people and the rebels WANTED AND ASKED for Western intervention. This ambassador that was killed yesterday was senseless - and what you see in those pictures are fact. Ghadafi was equivalent to Saddam - a ruthless dictator - who controlled the media, money and power in that country. You think America has state run media? Well that's questionable but in Libya Ghadafi made no attempt to hide that fact, and was very blatant about it. The people of Libya KNEW they were being oppressed - it wasn't a secret - and they wanted Freedom.

Incorrect. All this is evidence of is that SOME of the Libyan people might have wanted this. But for the sake of argument...let's say that 99% of the country allegedly "wanted" this. So what? Chris Stevens still entered the country illegally and assisted a non-governmental group of armed rebels employing guerrilla tactics to violently overthrow a sovereign government recognized by the UN. If anybody did that to us or one of our international buddies we would label them a "terrorist" and commence carpet bombing their civilian populations almost immediately....right?

As we speak there a bunch of illegal immigrants in Arizona who I'm sure would think it would be totally awesome if the Mexican drug cartels illegally entered our country in order to put a bullet in that "Sheriff Joe" clown and free all of the Mexican nationals who are currently imprisoned in his labor camp...but I'm wagering that such an act of terrorism would probably piss you off...even if 10 or 20 Mexicans were on ham radios "asking for help", right?

For that matter - if you have never left America's shores then you are not equipped to talk about foreign policy.[/quote]

Fair enough. Given that I have traveled extensively and have been to every continent on earth save Antarctica and I possess a bachelor's degree in Global Studies and a Master's Degree in History from a Big 10 University...I will continue to talk about foreign policy given that a court of law in the United States would consider me qualified to testify as an expert witness on these matters.

[quote]
In my time in the Military, I have visited countries all over the middle east. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jebel Ali, Dubai, Iraq and Afghanistan. Muslims do not hate the West. They love our culture - our freedoms - our way of life. They want it for themselves.

Never said that they did. In fact...if you actually READ the thread I specifically point out that the Middle East loved western-style, secular, democratically-inspired forms of republican government so much that they had largely adopted the "American/Western Way of Doing Things" during the first half of the 20th century....right up until our government started toppling all of these sane, and rational governments and replacing them with puppet dictators. Sorta like how we toppled Irans government three times in the last 60 years, funded and armed BOTH SIDES of the Iranian Civil War we helped create, and then gave Saddam Hussein chemical weapons to use against the Iranian civilian populations.

I acknowledge that your time in military service might have opened your eyes a little more than the average joe in America...but I would strongly urge you to put some effort into learning about the history of US interventionism in the Middle East, as you are forming conclusions based upon some very big misunderstandings of the factual data in the historical record.

In case anyone was wondering, the "he just followed orders" defense doesn't hold up in court. The Nazis tried to use that in Nuremburg. It didn't fly, and they were executed for war crimes because the international community expects soldiers to have at least a sliver of humanity and common sense.

In boot camp I was taught all about rules of engagement, the Geneva convention and so on, ad nausea. Then I discovered first hand in Iraq that all that crap was out the window because the US violates these guidelines routinely.

The conflict in Libya can be attributed mostly to the fact that Gadhafi wanted to start a new monetary system that would have allowed Africa to escape the web of corrupt international bankers. Anyone who doesn't conform with the international banking system is demonized, sabotaged and often times invaded.

Libya, Iraq, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, China, North Korea. What they all have in common is that they resisted the international bankers' influence and therefore endure the wrath of the bankers' bulldog, the US.

Then when people rightfully get pissed off about American exceptionalism and resist our illegal activities in their country, all the US "patriots" come flocking to talk about how THOSE people are so messed up, completely overlooking the context of the situation. For a country that is allegedly "of the people, by the people and for the people," dissent is a million times more patriotic than mindless flag-waving.

Should this guy have taken the heat for the systemic injustice of US military interventionism? I think not. But symbolism is powerful, and it is symbolic to me that Libyans killed the US ambassador, who they viewed as part of a a terrorist network, and dragged him through the streets for the world to see on the anniversary of 9/11.

Originally posted by yorkshirelad

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine

Originally posted by stonedogdiary

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by stonedogdiary
reply to post by milominderbinder

 

Seriously? Did you really just say that?

Opinions are opinions and I understand that. But with that opinion I'm thinking maybe we should send an angry mob to your house to burn it down and fire rockets at you and your family. Is that okay with you?

Did he help overthrow a foreign government though?

His opinion isn't the same as him actually acting out on it on the behalf of our governments.

I have absolutely no respect for anyone that condones the actions of yesterday on innocent people. If he had previously been a part of a military operation he was following his countries orders which may or may not have been for the best. We aren't debating that. We're talking about how anybody could have the balls to say something like that when on the anniversary of one of the biggest disasters our country has ever faced, an angry mob burned part of our embassy, tore our flag and raised their own, and killed four people senselessly.

How can anyone in this country defend this angry mob? People like that should seriously leave the country, and I know that might sound childish. But I appreciate what freedom we have left here and even when I strongly disagree with what our country is doing sometimes, I still get tears in my eyes at times when I hear the national anthem and I still respect what my loved ones and friends and friends in the military have done and given for this country no matter what party was ruling at the time.

You mean like the angry mob that destroyed Afghanistan "looking for Osama"? That angry mob...?

or the one who damn near turned Iraq back into desert........?

ORR, the one who decided that Ghadaffi was incapable of playing by their rules, so they had him killed...?


Four people died senselessly.. This is true... But how many have we killed with the drones..?
And how many were killed when we bombarded Libya? Or did we have a tactic of only shooting at empty buildings..?

Nooo I recall the US being a part of killing some babies in Libya....

Oh please give it a rest. Do you really think that that angry religiously intolerant extremist mob killed the ambassador for ANY of the reasons you state? Anyone who says yes really needs to wake up to how extremists behave. They killed that ambassador for one reason and one reason only. An absolute belief that their belief is sacrosant and that ANYBODY is a valid target for execution especially if they represent the "Evil and islamist west". They would even kill 12 year old children with learning difficulties.

If what you say is true then a significant majority of Libya would agree with what has happened THEY DON'T!!!!!!!

So i take it from your post that are one of these extremist, too know what they are willing to do and how they think must make you one of them right.

One very true statement which applies to almost all of us humans is that Yes Anybody and Everybody is a valid target for execution, however it matters not what they represent as long as they represent something external to what/who they are.

reply to post by milominderbinder


Given the thread title and the stars that followed, I think it's safe to say that ATS has hit a new low.
Shame on you !

You're blaming the US for killing people when the Libyan people were killing each other? How dare we step in! How dare we try to help put an end to that! What a cruel country we are.

reply to post by stonedogdiary

I suppose you'll feel the same way when China or Russia steps in to correct the situation when the USA falls into civil war? I'll bet you'll be singing a different tune then. We just need to stay the hell out of their business. Every nation needs to mind their own damn business.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by Helmkat
So I guess the murder of Ambassadors is fair game in the world? So much for civilization. OP, you did not know this man-at all-, yet you say he got what he deserved. I hope you are never judged unfairly.

What I'm saying is that if the "Ambassadors" are graduates of the National War College, illegally enter foreign countries, and assist rebel factions in overthrowing their government, starting a civil war, and torturing and executing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians then we might need to seriously call Webster's to have them provide another possible definition for the word "Ambassador" so that it's more synonymous with the word "terrorist".

I'm sorry but Ambassadors come from all kinds of different backgrounds, do not set policy, do not lead rebel groups and do not torture anyone. You want to paint him as an evil man twirling his black mustache in service to the American war machine, that is a very broad brush to use to paint a mans life and wildly inaccurate.

Originally posted by knowneedtoknow

Now let me tell you how much people did the great US of A killed in a periode of 60 years that those not include Syria and more.

TOTAL: 10,431,000

Do you have any compassion for these people?

edit on 13-9-2012 by knowneedtoknow because: (no reason given)

Wow, and I thought Hitler was bad. Talk about war crimes if you will...