Sorry, people of America, this not the behavior of our Islam | Libya

reply to post by Shamatt

Would you punish me for the sins of my brothers? If my countrymen offend you would you shoot me? If my allies disrespect you would you fight me?

Yes, they absolutely would, despite your warm hearted kindness. They would spit on it and laugh on it's stupidity.

They would give you one simple choice: Allah is God and there is no other; or, annihilation. You cannot exist besides existing in Allah's terms (I am repeating popular Sunni doctrine btw) and if you deny those terms, you deny existence as Islamic metaphysics says it necessarily is - thus - you accept death as the only alternative.

This is how Muslims think in situations with non-Muslims. They give you the chance to convert, but at the final straw, they have no choice - or rather, in vehement anger against your impiety - they murder you. And if they're especially violent, they'll torture you, and if you're a woman, most certainly will rape you.

I know what I write sounds excessive but this is not only the history, but the corollary of Islamic metaphysics and theology; Allah is a God of POWER and WILL; this is the doctrine of Hanbal, Ash'ari, and Al Ghazali - the Thomas Aquinas of Sunni Islamic thinking, second only to the prophet Mohomad in status.

Islam is a frightening civilization to non-Muslims, and unfortunately, you don't know it.

If you want to educate yourself in Islams theological-metaphysical thought, read "the closing of the Muslim mind: how intellectual suicide created the modern Islamist crisis". It's an unbelievable book. States the situation clearly.

Here's an excerpt:

Many wonder why democracy did not develop indigenously in the Muslim world and ask whether it can still develop today. The answer is that, so long as the Ash’arite (or Hanbalite) worldview is regnant, democratic development cannot succeed for the simple reason that this view posits the primacy of power over the primacy of reason. – Robert R. Reilly, The Closing of the Muslim Mind, pg. 128, ISI books

The primacy of reason, theologically and philosophically understood, is the prerequisite for democracy. Otherwise, what could serve as its legitimating source? Along with it must come metaphysical support for natural law, which provides the foundations not only for modern science but also for the development of constitutional government. Therein lies the source for the “laws of nature and of natures God,” on which constitutional edifices are built. The primacy of power in Sunni Islamic thought undermines a similar prospect. If one does not allow for the existence of secondary causes, one cannot develop natural law. If one cannot develop natural law, one cannot conceive of a constitutional political order in which man, through his reason, creates laws to govern himself and behave freely. – Robert R. Reilly, The Closing of the Muslim Mind, pg. 129, ISI books

Now, of course, I am not talking about Sufism. Sufis are much more friendly and kind hearted than mainstream orthodox Sunni or Shi'ite Muslims. If only more Muslims would appreciate the insights of these teachers of wisdom rather than the fanaticism of their sheiks and imanms, this dire situation wouldn't exist.

reply to post by Swills


Heres something to think about. What do you think would have happened back in history when some rebels burned and killed a few roman soliders. The response would be swift in the roman senate, and the order would go out to send in the legions and wipe out ALL the enemy. Men, women, the old, the children even the cattle. They would march in and kill everyone, burn your villages, town and cities and subjugate your people under Roman rule. As they did for hundreds of years. That a historical fact.

Problem here is ameica isn't the roman empire. Yes we have gone to the aid of many countries in the past and give aid in the billions. You folks are really lucky that Americans arn't like the roman empire.

The roman empire didn't have 40,000 Nuclear weapons..

Angering the country with that kind of firepower is the must stupidest thing one could ever imagine.

Think about that the next time you want to kill americans.

Also..America is the only country that ever dropped 2 atomic bombs on another country. In World War II.

You folks need to settle down, and go about living, the alternitive is a very scarry scenario.

Like I said your lucky america isn't the Roman empire..

my 2 cents

Originally posted by LiberLegit
It's funny. Rule of thumb is that only "15-20%" of Muslims are radical. That's millions of people, seems like a big deal to me.

That`s as many as 300 MILLION people.

reply to post by Eye of Horus


I don't really have much of a response to your post here except do you assume I'm from Libya or are you talking to the protesters in the picture?

I have no doubt in my mind the vast majority of people everywhere are good people. The question is, what about their government?

Love these pictures! It's great to know that others out there care about us and are realizing the terrible things their country is doing. These people give me hope that not all Islamic people are against us and our nation.

Originally posted by FreedomCommander
I'll take it into consideration that they are not responsible for what happened to Chris Stevens. It was some sicko's doing, and that same sicko is not of the people in any country.

Really. Try hundreds if not thousands. Thousands were reported to have stormed the US Embassy in Cairo. Is that indicative of a "sicko" or perhaps a SICK movement?

Chris Stevens death did not happen in a vacuum, nor was it a coincidence that his murder took place on 9/11

Again, do you think it's possible for hundreds if not thousands of people to storm a foreign embassy in DC? To scale the wall and loot for 4 hours? NO! Please don't be so naive. Look at Pakistan. If we cut the bribe money off, they would quickly be our number one enemy.

reply to post by dontreally


lol... I am orthodox Shi'ah Muslim.... am I unkind?

it helps to know people before you speak rather than reading books by western authors....They dont know our religion so well.

Originally posted by Kamza
To the Muslims on this forum, how can you lower yourself and be so apolagetic in the face of such a crude, abhorrent and inciteful video aimed and undermining the Prophet of God?

I am not doubting the story of this demonstration in Libya but what I find absurd is that such a crude attempt at inciting hatred against Muslims and ridiculing the belief of almost a third of the population of the world goes almost without criticisim yet the backlash is immediately pounced upon as terrorist vigilantes...

It seems people have lost all sense of what it means to revere and respect something. Especially when that something is held in high regard by a large proportion of the global community. In Aleistair Crowley's satanic book the Thelema he writes "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". Essentially meaning that do whatever you want and don't care about the repurcussions, don't care about who you offend, don't care what anyone thinks, as long as it feels good then 'just do it'.

Freedom today has been used too nonchanantl, giving people the 'justification' to do whatever they wish without any sense of what is right or wrong, good or bad. Was is not the U.S army that recently legalised beastiality? (that's sex with animals btw)...

This 'freedom' practised in many western and european countries is in complete agreement with satanism. Do what thou wilt is what it means to be a practising satanist and well this is how most the people are behaving most of the time. This crude video, clearly aimed at demeaning the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Islam, should be viewed as an abhorrent attemt to incite hatred and violence. Just because the Christians and Jews have lost all self-respect, does not mean that Muslim's should be looked down upon for sticking up for what they love most.

If someone ridiculed your mother or father in the worst of ways, would you simply say 'thanks for your opinion' or would you be a Man and give a harsh response and honour your parents? Now if you believe in the Prophet of God... that he came and struggled to pass on the truth to us... if you believed this wholeheartedly, would you not be offended if someone tried to ridicule him? If you are a Man of subtance then you would stick up for what you believe...

If you are going to live in a society where freedom of speech is a cornerstone of the society, I suggest trying on a thicker skin. There isn't a day that goes by where a comic, sitcom or late night host doesn't do jokes on priests associated with Christianity. Yet Christians aren't blowing themselves up and causing mass destruction over an ill-advised or poorly worded joke. (Or a D-grade movie - I saw the trailers and to call that a movie is to call anything on youtube worthy of Oscar consideration).

In this society, you take the good with the bad. If you don't like what someone says, you have a right to say what you want. You don't have the right to break into their property, murder their people, burn their flags, etc.

This isn't the place where if SOMEONE did say something that "may" offend your mother that you take out a sword and behead them. This world in general needs one big enema. We need to get over ourselves. You don't have to like or agree with what your neighbor says - BUT YOU DO HAVE TO RESPECT HIS RIGHT TO SAY WHAT HE WANTS TO SAY.

YOU have the power to either brush off a stupid video or decide by golly someone needs to die because they practiced satire and you were offended. This is such a childish, selfish response.

And BTW, I don't believe in your prophet, I don't believe in your god, and I think your religion as well as the other big two are going to be the downfall of humanity. This nonsense needs to stop. I could care less if you worship fire hydrants. But in America if I decide that is silly, or to crack or a joke, or to come out and say I'd rather worship fire extinguishers, you need to get over yourself and move on. So, MOVE ON.

America and Western countries should just leave and let the turmoil they are used to reach its natural end. There is plenty of oil elsewhere - that their version of religion can smother itself. Isolate - no flights, no banks, no nothing!

reply to post by OpinionatedB

lol... I am orthodox Shi'ah Muslim.... am I unkind?

Actually, the Shi'ite are a particular different subject, although I'm not as educated in it as I am in Sunni Islam.

And I didn't mean 'unkind'; I mean more so there exists a potential to act in unreasonable ways because of the nature of your religion.

Let me ask you one question: how do you form moral judgements? Do you base yourself on reason/conscience, or on some jurisprudential judgement based on the Quran and Hadith?

Al Ghazali says that this is the foundation of Islamic values: not in reason, which is illusory - but in the revealed will of Allah in the Quran.

I'm not sure of how large a place Al Ghazali has in Shi'ite Islam, but in Sunni Islam he is considered as the greatest Muslim outside Mohammad.

it helps to know people before you speak rather than reading books by western authors....They dont know our religion so well.

All it takes is a knowledge of Arabic and access to foundational Islamic texts. Did I misrepresent how Muslims make their moral decisions? Isn't true they derive it from statements, episodes etc in Quran - and not use of independent reason?

reply to post by Swills


Notice how many in the photos are holding the signs and looking up towards the sky. You can almost picture a sign saying "don't drone me bro". Hopefully this all blows over and no more innocent people on either side are killed.

It would help if instead of endless apologism and downplaying, moderate muslims would admit that islam has a big problem with extremism. Incidents like this do not happen in a vacuum. Extremism is often widespread in middle east, and what should we infer from statements like these?

reply to post by dontreally


I was rather hoping for an answer from the man himself rather than just another Westerner. Because all you are doing is perpetuating the ignorance and the hate, misleading and misinforming.

Did the Muslim lady I helped carry her babies pram off the tram yesterday want to kill me? No - she smiled at me and thanked me. Did the Muslim family eating at the table next to me in the shopping center at lunch time today want to kill me? No, they are happy living side by side with me and with all the other cultures and races which make up this wonderful city in which I live.

Just as there are 'Christians' who burn down Mosques and Sikh Temples in the US, does not mean you as a Christian would condone that, right? Just as the crusades slaughtered and burned their way across the middle east in the middle ages, it did not mean that the whole Christian family condoned that, right?

And it is true that there are more moderate Muslims who want to live in harmony with the world than there are fanatics.

Spreading untruths, relaying something you read in a book - these are not the acts of the enlightened. Not at all. It makes you a part of the problem.

As much as I resent being called stupid for relaying a message of peace and love, I will stand by my words. Meet hate with love. Meet anger with understanding, and meet misunderstanding with patience. I have socialised with Muslims, I have been friends with Muslims, and in my city, I live side by side with them in peace, and them with me. No one wants to kill anyone here. Your attitude and your opinion is as wrong, as unhelpful and as dangerous as any radical with religion.

Put your hand on your chest and feel your heart brother.

Originally posted by Swills
Here are some recent pictures from Libya about the recent terrorist attacks and murders. There are billions of Muslims and only a very small minority committed these attacks and they do not represent Islam and the people of Libya just wanted to remind you of that.

imgur.com...

edit on 12-9-2012 by Swills because: (no reason given)

15 Photos Of Libyans Apologizing To Americans

19 More Photos Of Libyans Apologizing For American Deaths

Libyan Peace Rally Slams Terrorism, Offers Apology For Consulate Attack (PHOTOS)

edit on Thu Sep 13 2012 by DontTreadOnMe because: added links per OP request.

Originally posted by sylent6
Oh how I wish us American could hold up these signs saying..."We sorry for our behavior and our government behavior when they claim to fight the war on terror but instead, killing hundreds and thousand of people over the course of the years but yet, we say god bless america and bless our troops who gives their lives to sometimes, take lives of innocents. I'm sorry, that it takes the wrongdoing for another country's behavior to apologies for their enemies to do harms to an American Embassy, I am sorry that we support wars periods and cause destruction to others to make movies and video games for our own entertainment to mock in the faces of others. Instead of us always saying God only bless america, how about we start saying God bless the world, to someday we can end violence and call for peace and security.


Now I am wearing my inappropriate behavior word-proof vest. Fire away!

Posts like this crack me up. I'm not apologizing for anything our government does and neither should you or any other American. I'm SO sick of hearing about Muslims and the middle east. I swear some of you Americans don't get it.I'm proud to be an American and I don't want that bull# coming here. People want to criticize us...but they'll excuse the behavior or those animals

I'm awaiting the responses of how I'm a disinfo agent since I'm not agreeing with the majority here.

There's a very VERY important message here:

Do not judge a people, or a nation (or republic..... ;P ) by the acts of a mad, extremist fraction. (however seductive it is to keep things simple. Look in the mirror. We áll do this by times)

What's so interesting here, is that the MSM (excluding that hypocritical bunch in CNN, that is) has taken notice of these protests. Over here, in Europe, these pics were plastered allover about évery mainstream newspaper) In other cases of atrocities, it's only weeks later that we get to hear of Arab people condemning the continuous attacs on westerners in the Arab world.. odd that..

I guess there's not enough money for the MSM in positive news from the Arab world...

reply to post by jaynkeel


YOU WROTE:
Standing there holding a sign is cutsie and all but where were these people when the bad ones were planning, executing their plans? Did any of them intervene and try and put an end to it? And if not then do they plan on doing more than holding a sign in the future? Sorry but holding a sign doesn't stop evil people from ruining things, the bad ones will just trample over the sign holders.

My response to you:


That's grossly unfair!

In the same light, I can ask you:
Where were you when they started putting MSG into our food?
Where were you when the lady who was pulled over by the cops and disgustingly had her tampon pulled out of her for fear that she might be harboring drugs there.... a mother with her child in the car!
Where were you when the USA killed scores of INNOCENT people in Vietnam?
This can go on and on.
You cannot control others. You have full control over yourself. ONLY.

If these people tried to go up against these powerful bad ones, they would have lost their own lives. What do they owe you for you to think that they should lay down their lives? They are just people like you and me, going about their business trying to make it in a world gone crazy. But at least they are willing to voice their opinions, which is of a pure intent!

In India there is a term for the extremely poor. They are the Untouchables.

We should adopt that term, but apply it to the people in all our respective countries who causes suffering and pain, who if truth be told, are the Untouchables.

They say that you cannot recognize a characteristic in another if you do not have it in you. Perhaps some people really do not have compassion or the seeking of forgiveness therefore they cannot recognize it when it is loudly displayed on a hand written sign, right in your face.

How do you really know what these people are feeling?

How do you expect these people to have known beforehand that these things were going to happen, in order to stop them? You are really coming down on them with a severity that is beyond reason.

Have a heart and you will see that others have one too!

Originally posted by Maslo
It would help if instead of endless apologism and downplaying, moderate muslims would admit that islam has a big problem with extremism. Incidents like this do not happen in a vacuum. Extremism is often widespread in middle east, and what should we infer from statements like these?

Won't happen. Fact is Islam is a cancer.All religions are but Islam is the worst.And I'm sick of hearing about how it's a "Religion Of Peace". No it isn't and the majority of followers are violent. . Since I was 10 years old I've always believed the world would be better off without ANY religion.

It's heartwarming to see images of mainstream muslims apologizing for the actions of a few radicals. A minor amount of empathy goes a lot farther than the most ghastly acts of terrorism. It’s a shame that these images will not be seen on CNN. The cards are always stacked against sensibility.