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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by SUBKONCIOUS
To say true high ranking masons do not have a secret belief system that is based on the "Luciferian Concept" would be flat out disinformation... are you willing to make such a bold statement?
Yes, for two reasons, both of them are the same. Neither 'high-level' Masons nor Lucifer exist. One is used to scare conspiracy theorsists and the other Christians.
Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by SUBKONCIOUS
I am willing to make such a bold statement.
Why do non-Masons presume to tell us so much about our own Fraternity? Particularly, I love how "I'm not high enough", but yet you guys say you know what I don't as non-members. Do you see the hypocrisy and the arrogance?
Originally posted by SUBKONCIOUS
“When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”
‘Lost Keys of Freemasonry’ page 48, Manley P Hall 33rd degree.
quotes.liberty-tree.ca...
way to shoot yourself in the foot there... I think you just lost a couple credential points... and to say Lucifer doesn't exist (in the masonic context) is like saying eternal knowledge does not exist... and i don't think your quite in position to make that claim.. just sayin....
The day has come when Fellow Craftsmen must know and apply their knowledge. The lost key to their grade is the mastery of emotion, which places the energy of the universe at their disposal. Man can only expect to be entrusted with great power by proving his ability to use it constructively and selflessly. When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy. He must follow in the footsteps of his forefather, Tubal-Cain, who with the mighty strength of the war god hammered his sword into a plowshare. Incessant vigilance over thought, action, and desire is indispensable to those who wish to make progress in the unfolding of their own being, and the Fellow Craft's degree is the degree of transmutation. The hand that slays must lift the fallen, while the lips given to cursing must be taught to pray. The heart that hates must learn the mystery of compassion, as the result of a deeper and more perfect understanding of man's relation to his brother. The firm, kind hand of spirit must curb the flaming powers of emotion with an iron grip. In the realization and application of these principles lies the key of the Fellow Craft.
Despite its theme, the Shrine is not connected to Islam. It is a men's fraternity rather than a religion or religious group. Its only religious requirement is indirect: all Shriners must be Masons, and petitioners to Freemasonry must profess a belief in a Supreme Being. To further minimize confusion with religion, the use of the word "Temple" to describe Shriners' buildings has been replaced by "Shrine Center", although individual local chapters are still called "Temples".
There is no concept of a fallen angel who challenges God in Jewish mythology, it is anethema to their religion.
Really? Which ones?
Getting the picture yet? I can link sources all day that prove the point the Jews NEVER had the same concept of Christians regarding a fallen angel who challenges God.
If you take the tact that Satan challenges God then he has free will which in the Jewish religion was never ascribe to angels, only man had free will.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
All regular Masons are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, i.e. God, and the planet Venus, whom the Romans refered to as Lucifer, certainly does not qualify.
Originally posted by GreatOwl
Freemasons only worship themselves. There's a "Worshipful Master", and a "Grand Master", and things like "Supreme Commander" etc..these are the idols of Freemasonry.
In some areas, one can still be put to death for being a Mason.
I make a very clear statement that all freemasons are NOT evil and corrupt.
Originally posted by GreatOwl
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
All regular Masons are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, i.e. God, and the planet Venus, whom the Romans refered to as Lucifer, certainly does not qualify.
Very clever.
But, masons do not worship.
Freemasonry requires a "belief" in a supreme being, but doesn't require you to "worship" that supreme being.
Satan believes in the existence of a supreme being, he just doesn't worship him.
Freemasons only worship themselves. There's a "Worshipful Master", and a "Grand Master", and things like "Supreme Commander" etc..these are the idols of Freemasonry.
Originally posted by shamanix2012
I bring it up because I experienced it first hand, and there is a possibility that SOME masons do worship Lucifer, Satan, ( the name doesn't matter, their actions do ). I wasn't trying to offend you, just putting another perspective here.
Originally posted by noonebutme
reply to post by shamanix2012
Not at all. You have some strange belief that Masons are up to no good, we tell you otherwise, you refuse to believe and maintain your own incorrect assumptions.
Fair enough. If it helps you to believe in the occult (made up) and supernatural beings (also made up) then go for it.
Originally posted by GreatOwl
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
All regular Masons are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, i.e. God, and the planet Venus, whom the Romans refered to as Lucifer, certainly does not qualify.
Very clever.
But, masons do not worship.
Freemasonry requires a "belief" in a supreme being, but doesn't require you to "worship" that supreme being.
Satan believes in the existence of a supreme being, he just doesn't worship him.
Freemasons only worship themselves. There's a "Worshipful Master", and a "Grand Master", and things like "Supreme Commander" etc..these are the idols of Freemasonry.
Originally posted by SUBKONCIOUS
“When the Mason learns that the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onwards and upwards he must prove his ability to properly apply (this) energy.”
‘Lost Keys of Freemasonry’ page 48, Manley P Hall 33rd degree.\
quotes.liberty-tree.ca...
way to shoot yourself in the foot there... I think you just lost a couple credential points...
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
I never said that there was such a concept. Again, you are putting words in my mouth. You are describing the Christianized version of what was originally a Jewish theological concept. The early Christians were all Jewish, and adopted the Jewish concept of Satan and then modified it to their choosing.
Well, Rashi, for one. Rashi was one of the greatest Jewish Sages that ever lived. Regarding Jacob's wrestling with Satan, the Sages believed this:
"This confrontation (Genesis 32; 25-33) was an epic event in Jewish history. The Rabbis explained that this "man" (i.e., the one that wrestled with Jacob in this passage) was the guardian angel of Esau (per the Jewish Sage, Rashi), in a human guise. The Sages teach that every nation has a guardian angel that guides its destination as an "intermediary" between it and G-d. Two nations, however, are unique: Israel is G-d's own people and just as Esau epitomizes evil, so his angel is the prime spiritual force of evil - SATAN himself. Thus, this battle was the eternal struggle between good and evil, between man's capacity to perfect himself and SATAN'S determination to destroy him spiritually." (p. 54, the Stone Edition of the Tanach).
So, yes, here we see a biblical example of Jacob wrestling with a sentient human being, Satan himself in the guise of a human being.
Zechariah - Chapter 3
Chapter 3
1. And He showed me Joshua, the High Priest, standing before the angel of the Lord. And Satan was standing on his right, to accuse him. א.
Rashi-to accuse him: To accuse him because his sons were married to gentile women, as it is written in the Book of Ezra (10:18): “And it was found of the sons of the priests who had taken foreign wives, of the sons of Jeshua the son of Jozadak, etc.”
I never once stated that the Jewish and Christianized version of Satan were similar. You did, not me. I simply stated that the concept of Satan is Jewish in origin, and that the Christians adopted and modified the concept at a later date.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Well, Rashi, for one. Rashi was one of the greatest Jewish Sages that ever lived. Regarding Jacob's wrestling with Satan, the Sages believed this:
"This confrontation (Genesis 32; 25-33) was an epic event in Jewish history. The Rabbis explained that this "man" (i.e., the one that wrestled with Jacob in this passage) was the guardian angel of Esau (per the Jewish Sage, Rashi), in a human guise. The Sages teach that every nation has a guardian angel that guides its destination as an "intermediary" between it and G-d. Two nations, however, are unique: Israel is G-d's own people and just as Esau epitomizes evil, so his angel is the prime spiritual force of evil - SATAN himself. Thus, this battle was the eternal struggle between good and evil, between man's capacity to perfect himself and SATAN'S determination to destroy him spiritually." (p. 54, the Stone Edition of the Tanach).
So, yes, here we see a biblical example of Jacob wrestling with a sentient human being, Satan himself in the guise of a human being.
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. (Genesis 32:24, ASV)
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed. (Genesis 32:28, ASV)
And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. (Genesis 32:29, ASV)
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for, said he, I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. (Genesis 32:30, ASV)
And God said to him, “Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name.” So he called his name Israel.