Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by Razimus
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Last I checked Masons sing Christian hymns, so clearly they worship the opposite. At least the lodge I visited, exclusively sings Christian hymns, I suppose other lodges are open to singing the hymns of the respective members' religions, I've yet to hear a story of a book of the devil being placed on the table or devil hymns sung at a lodge.

hi Razimus/

Whats a 'devil hymn'?


Just because one sings Christian hymns, does not make one a true Christian...being a Christian does not guarantee one into Heaven!
Worship is one thing, and singing is another!

ICXC NIKA

I think the problem Masons face is that their beliefs, or interpretation of God is controversial to close minded people. The universe losses its vastness and its complexity when you can just write off the whole thing as being another thing God made, and that you can be close to him without understanding it.

You take a more philosophical approach and you see that God is another "form" of creation. That Humanity is as close to God as it wants to be, and that "doing as Jesus does" is not the end all be all. That you can be as Jesus is. There is where the sacrilege comes in. So to limit the number of people seeing Jesus as a brother, they see him as a father, but more, a God. A thing they are forbidden to even contemplate beyond obedience and love.

It is fear and misconstrued interpretations by Christians of belief systems they really should not have half assed trying to understand in the first place. If they really wanted to know what Jesus Knew and what he believed, then they should have had patience and studied it like he did.

What happened was that they saw a threat behind every corner. So the sort of things Masons and other occultists used to study were not understood beyond a superficial "oh you want to replace God" mentality, and anything like that was evil and so "the devils work", so to them it was logic to say that occultists worship the devil.

Even though they just understand the relationship of all things differently.

WWJD?

HOW WOULD JESUS BE is more like it.

Originally posted by ExuLucifer
The only approval that would seemingly have been required is the allowance of the lodge to operate in the Ecclessia Gnostica which it does.

That is what I am trying to figure out. If Hoeller gave his approval why would he allow a group to operate under a name that belongs to him if they do not adhere to the same principles that he does?

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The one where you claim that the Christians believe the 'devil' rules in hell or the one where you think (L)ucifer is the name of a fallen angel.

I supplied quotes from Chirstian authorities that you opted to discount because one was not Bishop-y enough for you and Martin Luther because you just felt like it.

The (L)ucifer term is regarded as the state to which the angel has fallen (see your own source).

Really? I guess you did not actually read my source as it was quite clear:

The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel...

I am baffled by your claims too often now to know what the 'F' you are talking about half the time.

Says the guy who cannot remember what he and others post.

Also I am still waiting on list of Luciferian and Satanic texts...

And you are going to keep waiting.

Originally posted by Razimus
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Last I checked Masons sing Christian hymns, so clearly they worship the opposite. At least the lodge I visited, exclusively sings Christian hymns, I suppose other lodges are open to singing the hymns of the respective members' religions, I've yet to hear a story of a book of the devil being placed on the table or devil hymns sung at a lodge.

How did you go to a Lodge if you aren't a member? We don't sing any hymns whatsoever.

Originally posted by dave13
-In catholic mass the priest does say Body of Christ but he also mentions Secret Faith. I'm a catholic so I know. MASONS HAVE A SECRET RITUAL- both are the same.

I am not sure what Catholic Church you go to but I have attended both Italian, Latin and English masses and never once during communion did the Priest say, 'Secret Faith'.

-In a Masonic lodge they don't worship...

Exactly.

...but they have rituals exactly the same as the Catholic Church, both are the same meaning. At the end its all Rituals. But they do not know the true meaning of their rituals, same with the Catholics.

Explain in detail the similarity.

-SATAN in OLD Hebrew means SHATAN- Adversary-opponent-

'Old Hebrew'? The first reference to Satan was made in Job which was written between 600-400BCE and was written in Late Biblical Hebrew which used the word 'ha-satan'. If you have an alternate source then please post it.

But I do believe that Jesus existed and was a good person and that the Catholic Church and Free masons have rituals against Jesus.

What rituals in Masonry are 'against Jesus'? Please post the details.

Originally posted by helen6700
So, which God is the God that one adheres to in masonic tradition?

God, the Creator of the Universe.

Originally posted by helen6700
Quote///Mackey says: "As Masons we are taught never to commence any great or important undertaking without first invoking the blessing and protection of Deity,
and this is because Masonry is a religious institution." (Masonic Ritualist, p. 44)

The Senate of the United States opens each session by invoking Deity, does this constitute worship?

Originally posted by Razimus
Last I checked Masons sing Christian hymns, so clearly they worship the opposite. At least the lodge I visited, exclusively sings Christian hymns, I suppose other lodges are open to singing the hymns of the respective members' religions...

To be honest I have never been to a lodge where they sang Christian hymns or anything for that matter other then the National Anthem and Pleyel's Hymn in the Third Degree which is purely a Masonic invention although it has been co-opted into some Methodist hymnals.

Originally posted by manykapao
I think the problem Masons face is that their beliefs, or interpretation of God is controversial to close minded people.

That generally sums up the attitude of the religious fundementalist who always feels it is their way or you are going to roast forever.

So the sort of things Masons and other occultists used to study were not understood beyond a superficial "oh you want to replace God" mentality, and anything like that was evil and so "the devils work", so to them it was logic to say that occultists worship the devil.

You see this with sad regularity around here and the comical part is many Masons do not even believe in the existance of Satan.

Originally posted by darkhorserider
How did you go to a Lodge if you aren't a member?

My lodge often has open events where the public can attend Lodge. Our yearly Installation is a good example.

reply to post by dave13

Freemasons and Catholics are not the same.

Please show me what rituals we have that are the same as the Catholics. Who says I don't know the true meaning of the Masonic rituals?

Freemasonry does not have "rituals against Jesus". Please prove me wrong if you can. I can name some rituals that are pro-Christian.

reply to post by helen6700

"Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it."
- Albert Pike

Freemasonry isn't a religion nor does having an opening and closing prayer constitute us as a religion or worshiping.

reply to post by Razimus

My Lodge doesn't sing hymns.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by darkhorserider
How did you go to a Lodge if you aren't a member?

My lodge often has open events where the public can attend Lodge. Our yearly Installation is a good example.

True, but we don't sing any hymnals at our installation dinner. And, the public events wouldn't be much of an indicator for what goes on in a regular lodge meeting.

Originally posted by darkhorserider
True, but we don't sing any hymnals at our installation dinner.

And, the public events wouldn't be much of an indicator for what goes on in a regular lodge meeting.

In my jurisidiction when we close the public Installation it is very similar to a regular closing but minus any dueguards and signs.

I would be curious to see where they are singing hymnals and why.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


You havent been understanding this particularly well. The order and the church are two seperate entities. The order and the church do not share the same name, and is not under any name under his control. He has no control over something he is not a member of. What makes you believe they are not in adherence to what he believes? The only thing he would seemingly have control over is the fact that he allowed the lodge to meet there.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus






-www.youtube.com... - in the 50min the priest does mention Secret FAITH. Only problem is this Mass is in the Croatian language, as you maybe know the Croatian people are very close with the VATICAN.

-Just to let you know, I'm not against the MASONS.

-Masons have victory rituals against SATAN, Catholic Church has victory rituals against Jesus as YESHUA THE MESSIAH. BOTH ARE THE SAME PERSON- SATAN AND JESUS.

-JESUS IS SATAN AND SATAN IS JESUS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS., Both Catholic and Masons use symbols from the revelation.

-Catholics, Jesus is a symbol of a LAMB, Masons have a symbol of a GOAT, BOTH EXACTLY THE SAME

- Catholic have a symbol of a Cross which true meaning is the VICTORY against Jesus. Masons have a symbol of a hexagram (69 or upside down cross) Pentagram, symbol of Victory against SATAN- JESUS

- CHI RHO = XP, catholic symbol of JESUS from FAKE Constantine the Great = Masons symbol of
Jolly Roger, SCULL with two bones as X. BOTH MEAN DEATH TO JESUS.

- Masons also use the symbol of the 2 headed Phoenix-immortality, Resurrection. Two headed eagle is also a christian symbol but its true MEANING AGAIN IS SATAN.and JESUS. 2nd ESDRAS, 5th Vision.

- Catholic old Churches are actually designed as a grave against Satan as JESUS. Masons call their meeting place a TEMPLE- PULL THIS TEMPLE DOWN AND I WILL REBUILD IT IN 3 DAYS- Both represent JESUS

- Number 13 and 6 is also used in Free MASONS, BOTH from the Revelation. JESUS IS 13 AND ALSO 666 IS JESUS. 12 Apostles, the 13th was Jesus. Friday 13th, Friday the day JESUS was crucified.


- SHATON - from my 30 year old world book dictionary, but it does not matter if its SHATAN or 'ha-satan', my main message was that SATAN'S means OPPONENT and JESUS WAS THE OPPONENT to the leader's who Crucified him. This you do not mention to me??? As this is very very important to HUMANITY.

reply to post by KSigMason



-www.youtube.com... - in the 50min the priest does mention Secret FAITH. Only problem is this Mass is in the Croatian language, as you maybe know the Croatian people are very close with the VATICAN.

-Just to let you know, I'm not against the MASONS.

-Masons have victory rituals against SATAN, Catholic Church has victory rituals against Jesus as YESHUA THE MESSIAH. BOTH ARE THE SAME PERSON- SATAN AND JESUS.

-JESUS IS SATAN AND SATAN IS JESUS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS., Both Catholic and Masons use symbols from the revelation.

-Catholics, Jesus is a symbol of a LAMB, Masons have a symbol of a GOAT, BOTH EXACTLY THE SAME

- Catholic have a symbol of a Cross which true meaning is the VICTORY against Jesus. Masons have a symbol of a hexagram (69 or upside down cross) Pentagram, symbol of Victory against SATAN- JESUS

- CHI RHO = XP, catholic symbol of JESUS from FAKE Constantine the Great = Masons symbol of
Jolly Roger, SCULL with two bones as X. BOTH MEAN DEATH TO JESUS.

- Masons also use the symbol of the 2 headed Phoenix-immortality, Resurrection. Two headed eagle is also a christian symbol but its true MEANING AGAIN IS SATAN.and JESUS. 2nd ESDRAS, 5th Vision.

- Catholic old Churches are actually designed as a grave against Satan as JESUS. Masons call their meeting place a TEMPLE- PULL THIS TEMPLE DOWN AND I WILL REBUILD IT IN 3 DAYS- Both represent JESUS

- Number 13 and 6 is also used in Free MASONS, BOTH from the Revelation. JESUS IS 13 AND ALSO 666 IS JESUS. 12 Apostles, the 13th was Jesus. Friday 13th, Friday the day JESUS was crucified.


- SHATON - from my 30 year old world book dictionary, but it does not matter if its SHATAN or 'ha-satan', my main message was that SATAN'S means OPPONENT and JESUS WAS THE OPPONENT to the leader's who Crucified him. This you do not mention to me??? As this is very very important to HUMANITY.

Originally posted by ExuLucifer
You havent been understanding this particularly well.The order and the church are two seperate entities. The order and the church do not share the same name, and is not under any name under his control. He has no control over something he is not a member of.

I think the confusion stems from this quote:

Originally posted by ExuLucifer
I would know seeing as I have been initiated into a Gnostic Order inside Ecclesia Gnostica.

My interpretation of that was a sub-group of Ecclesia that you joined. Are you saying that it is just a group that meets there? Similar to the PTA renting out a Church or something along those lines?

What makes you believe they are not in adherence to what he believes? The only thing he would seemingly have control over is the fact that he allowed the lodge to meet there.

The reason I think that is because of this quote:

Its not an unorthodox view of Gnosticism at all if you actually study what the Gnostics believed. Stephan Hoeller is just one man with his own belief in the Ecclesia Gnostica. He would only seemingly be speaking for himself really.

He speaks for more than himself, he speaks for Ecclesia as a whole. It is his Church and therefore one could logically assume that anyone who joins it would adhere to his style of beliefs. Your above comment lead me to believe that you disagreed with him and had a different viewpoint then he on Lucifer and his relation to Ecclesia's dogma.

Originally posted by dave13
-www.youtube.com... - in the 50min the priest does mention Secret FAITH. Only problem is this Mass is in the Croatian language, as you maybe know the Croatian people are very close with the VATICAN.

I am fairly certain none of us posting speaks Croatian so there is no way to confirm what is being said. Regardless, as I stated earlier, there is no mention of 'Secret Faith' in English, Latin or Italian Masses that I have attended.

-Masons have victory rituals against SATAN, Catholic Church has victory rituals against Jesus as YESHUA THE MESSIAH. BOTH ARE THE SAME PERSON- SATAN AND JESUS.

You keep making unsupported claims such as this. What Masonic ritual is a 'victory ritual against Satan'?

-JESUS IS SATAN AND SATAN IS JESUS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS., Both Catholic and Masons use symbols from the revelation.

Such as?

-Catholics, Jesus is a symbol of a LAMB, Masons have a symbol of a GOAT, BOTH EXACTLY THE SAME

There is no goat symbol in Masonry. Additionally, even if there were a lamb and a goat are two seperate animals. It would be like saying a dog and a fox are the same thing.

- Catholic have a symbol of a Cross which true meaning is the VICTORY against Jesus. Masons have a symbol of a hexagram (69 or upside down cross) Pentagram, symbol of Victory against SATAN- JESUS

There is no hexagram or pentagram used in Masonic Lodges.

- CHI RHO = XP, catholic symbol of JESUS from FAKE Constantine the Great = Masons symbol of
Jolly Roger, SCULL with two bones as X. BOTH MEAN DEATH TO JESUS.

How is the Jolly Rodger Masonic? Do you know that there are over a hundred Jolly Rodgers? Each pirate used his own version. Which one is Masonic?

- Masons also use the symbol of the 2 headed Phoenix-immortality, Resurrection. Two headed eagle is also a christian symbol but its true MEANING AGAIN IS SATAN.and JESUS. 2nd ESDRAS, 5th Vision.

The Scottish Rite uses the bicephalous eagle, it is not a Blue Lodge emblem.

- Catholic old Churches are actually designed as a grave against Satan as JESUS. Masons call their meeting place a TEMPLE- PULL THIS TEMPLE DOWN AND I WILL REBUILD IT IN 3 DAYS- Both represent JESUS

The use of the word 'temple' in rergards Masonry is meant to evoke King Solomon's Temple.

- Number 13 and 6 is also used in Free MASONS, BOTH from the Revelation. JESUS IS 13 AND ALSO 666 IS JESUS. 12 Apostles, the 13th was Jesus. Friday 13th, Friday the day JESUS was crucified.

13 and 16 are not relevant in Masonry. 1, 3, 5 and 7 are the numbers we use with frequency. Additionally, Friday 13th has nothing to do with Jesus or Masonry, it was the day that the Knights Templar were outlawed by the Pope.

- SHATON - from my 30 year old world book dictionary, but it does not matter if its SHATAN or 'ha-satan', my main message was that SATAN'S means OPPONENT and JESUS WAS THE OPPONENT to the leader's who Crucified him. This you do not mention to me??? As this is very very important to HUMANITY.

Shaton is Arabic. Ha-satan is Hebrew. The rest of the sentence makes no sense.

My interpretation of that was a sub-group of Ecclesia that you joined. Are you saying that it is just a group that meets there? Similar to the PTA renting out a Church or something along those lines?

No its a not a subgroup as it has delination, but it has Gnostic trappings. I will give you one guess whose crown it was whose jewel fell from heaven who is spoken of in initiation into the order.


He speaks for more than himself, he speaks for Ecclesia as a whole. It is his Church and therefore one could logically assume that anyone who joins it would adhere to his style of beliefs. Your above comment lead me to believe that you disagreed with him and had a different viewpoint then he on Lucifer and his relation to Ecclesia's dogma.

I do disagree with him. Your confusion of the matter lies in the Gnostic realm. Bishop Hoeller is a Gnostic in the traditional more classic sense particularly in regards to his Gnostic ritual which is based upon the Catholic Mass changed to make it a Gnostic Mass. I differ in the fact that while I am Gnostic I am more specifically a Gnostic Luciferian. I am also thiestic, as I am not an athiest in my belief structure.Traditional Gnostics tend to only speak on the bumbling creator of this world The Demiurg while Gnostic Luciferians speak of Lucifer. There is a sizable contingent of Gnostic Luciferians who are athiest, and follow Thelema, and LaVey Athiestic Satanism, and all realms of Thiestic Satanism while I do not really get into it. I am not an athiest, I do not really like Thelema nor Aleister Crowley, and LaVey simply made up his own form of athiestic satanism. Further LaVey stated Objectivism is "Satanism without Religion" and the Thelemite and Church of Satan types I've encountered tend to act like Objectivists in their authoritarian nature, and their own interests which I find goes against the notion of brotherhood as a Freemason.