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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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Originally posted by darkhorserider
I think this logic could exclude Christians as well, except that Christians have that convenient Holy Trinity that makes Jesus and God one and the same, except when they're not, LOL.


One of the reasons I am no longer Catholic, but I do understand the belief that they are all the same God. It just did not make any sense to me personally.


Christians don't believe Christ is the creator of the universe, but they worship Christ and they pray to Christ, and they look to Christ as their savior and ticket to heaven, but they also believe in God the Father.


Yes and no. Catholics believe that they are all an aspect of the same God, the ousia.


I don't know much about what Luciferianists believe, but I don't see why they couldn't believe in a GAOTU, and then also believe he created the Lucifer character who became defiant and was given the realm of Earth, and serves here as the ambassador for mankind, very similar to Jesus except Jesus was pious and humble while Lucifer was defiant. Similar stories, different results, neither one more valid than the other.

I could be way off base, but I don't see how one would be acceptable and the other not.


See my above post.


I absolutely DO BELIEVE one has to be a monotheist.


Brother, do you mind sharing what Jurisdiction you are in?




posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
These are a few that you could use to get a better understanding of the mindset and practices involved in the doctrines which you claim no affiliation to. I am not saying it would be a perfect match but you will notice the symbolism is drawn from the same sources and often similar practices (the rituals) aim for similar purposes.


Spare me. I have read enough to understand the difference between both forms of Satanism, Luciferianism and Masonry. There is nothing that is similar.


As I have already stated I am done arguing with you as you don't seem to have a grasp of the material as a whole to actually have a discussion on any matter aside from masonry.


Good riddance then.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Oh do please list a few of the texts which you have actually read?

You have been wrong so many times in this thread I would enjoy perusing the literature you have read to see where you may have gotten lost.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


That was a good explanation, thank you.

Do you believe there are any people out there who worship Lucifer? If so, by what name/label do you refer to that belief/worship as?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Can you worship Lucifer (or anything else for that matter) in a relgious context and still remain a monotheist?
People are certainly entitled to worship Lucifer, or something less than God, in a religious context while also believing they are still a monotheist. The Holy Trinity, saints, angels... Catholic's tend to engage in what can be considered a religious worship of something other than God, and you'd be hard pressed to find a Catholic who claims to not be a monotheist.

And unless you reveal to someone what you believe and worship, they really won't know what you believe and worship. I imagine this can easily happen in a setting like Masonry where it's members are required specifically not to talk about religion.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Can you worship Lucifer (or anything else for that matter) in a relgious context and still remain a monotheist?


Yes, a Gnostic sees Lucifer as the true God who is uncreated by the Demiurg of this world. It was Lucifer who came to this world as the serpent in order to save. In the Garden of Eden it was Lucifer as the serpent who gave Eve Gnosis in the partaking of the Tree of Good and Evil. The Demiurg of this world said do not eat of this tree for you shall surely die. The serpent told Eve that you will not surely die. Eve ate and so did Adam and their eyes were opened and they surely did not die. The Demiurg of this world is a liar, and will hold you in spiritual bondage.
edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification

edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
You have been wrong so many times in this thread...


Says the guy who quotes sources and then forgets what they say.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:01 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Do you believe there are any people out there who worship Lucifer? If so, by what name/label do you refer to that belief/worship as?


Yes. To me, based on their own explanations, I would find them to be Theistic Satanists who either worship the Luciferian side of Satan or Satan outright. They acknowledge the existance God but opt to to recognize him religiously.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:18 AM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
Yes, a Gnostic sees Lucifer as the true God who is uncreated by the Demiurg of this world.


This is a rather unorthodox view of Gnosticism as most contemprary Gnostic groups, the Ecclesia Gnostica, the Thomasine Church, and the Apostolic Johannite Church do not have Satan/Lucifer as a factor in their beliefs.

Stephan Hoeller gives an eleoquent explantion on Gnosticism and there is no mention of Satam except to mock conspiracy theorists and other ignorants.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by helen6700
Hi AugustusMasonicus///

There was no early 'Roman Catholic' Church....the Early Church was Catholic(as in universal) when the East and West split.......and the concept of hell is as it was in the early Church....


I use that term for clarities sake when differentiating between the multiple sects of Christianity that now exist.


As for the original post.....
Nothing is HIDDEN from God.....all will be revealed!!!


Who mentioned hiding anything?



hi/
I'm going to answer as you do ,.....


Yes, agree with the 'multiple sects of Christianity''
There is one God who is Lord of creation!
"I am the door.
By me if any man enter in, he shall be saved." (John, 10:9)
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.
No one cometh unto the Father,
but by me." (John, 14:6)
"He that hath not the Son of God hath not Life." (I John, 5:12)
"He that believeth not the Son shall not see Life". (John, 3:36)

"The word of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God." (I Cor. 1:18

We do need to be specific when 'Clarifying'!


You ask, Who mentioned 'hiding'?
I did!

Well, it's no 'secret' that secrets are kept amongst the hierarchy of the temple?
Nothing ever stays 'Hidden' ...."And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness,
but rather reprove them.
For it is a shame to speak of those things which are done of them in secret." (Ephesians 5:11-12)
Jesus said: "I have spoken openly to the world - I have said nothing secretly." (John 18:20)

Therefore a Christian cannot be part of this sect of Masons!
He cannot be both...you cannot have TWO GODS!
ICXC NIKA



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by helen6700
Therefore a Christian cannot be part of this sect of Masons!
He cannot be both...you cannot have TWO GODS!


There are no 'two Gods', God is God.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 11:53 AM
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This is a rather unorthodox view of Gnosticism as most contemprary Gnostic groups, the Ecclesia Gnostica, the Thomasine Church, and the Apostolic Johannite Church do not have Satan/Lucifer as a factor in their beliefs.

Its not an unorthodox view of Gnosticism at all if you actually study what the Gnostics believed. Stephan Hoeller is just one man with his own belief in the Ecclesia Gnostica. He would only seemingly be speaking for himself really. I would know seeing as I have been initiated into a Gnostic Order inside Ecclesia Gnostica.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
I would know seeing as I have been initiated into a Gnostic Order inside Ecclesia Gnostica.


Which only makes reference to Lucifer in the same sense that Christians might, as a fallen angel. Hoeller is recognized as one of, if not the, leading authority on Ecclesia Gnostica and authored the Catechism relating to such. His further opinion on Lucifer from that work:


35. Are these estranged spiritual beings the same as the fallen angels that some Christians believe in?

There can be little doubt that the myth of the war in heaven and of the fall of Lucifer are but a form of the Gnostic statements about the estrangement of the Demiurge and his Archons from the PLEROMA.

...

37. By what names is the Demiurge known?

In Gnostic scriptures he is called YALDABAOTH (child of chaos), SACLAS (fool) and SAMAEL (blind one). In later Gnosticizing lore he was at times identified with LUCIFER or SATAN, the prince of the powers of air.


He also believes in God:


1. What is God?

The infinite and eternal Reality behind all phenomena, known to the Gnostic under several names, such as the True God, the Unknown Father, the King of Light and many more.

2. What are some further characteristics of God?

Although being infinite, God is in a sense beyond all qualities; one may nevertheless affirm that God is the highest, perfect transcendental Existence in Whom everything originated and by Whom everything is sustained.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:27 PM
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Which only makes reference to Lucifer in the same sense that Christians might, as a fallen angel. Hoeller is recognized as one of, if not the, leading authority on Ecclesia Gnostica and authored the Catechism relating to such. His further opinion on Lucifer from that work:

No it doesnt, as the order, and the church are two distinct bodies, and are not the same do not conflate the two. Ecclesia Gnostica is the name of his church and is therefore an incorrect assertion to claim all Gnostic Churches are Ecclesia Gnostica. Your last statement surmises it well with "his opinion". He is one man with one church. He is not infallible nor is a Gnostic is required to believe anything or everything he says like another other priest or preacher. There are plenty of other Gnostic churches and sources to draw upon. As I stated its "his opinion".


35. Are these estranged spiritual beings the same as the fallen angels that some Christians believe in?

There can be little doubt that the myth of the war in heaven and of the fall of Lucifer are but a form of the Gnostic statements about the estrangement of the Demiurge and his Archons from the PLEROMA.

This is about the Demiurg which is not Lucifer. Lucifer ruled over heaven and will reclaim his throne over the Demiurg who usurped power.

37. By what names is the Demiurge known?

In Gnostic scriptures he is called YALDABAOTH (child of chaos), SACLAS (fool) and SAMAEL (blind one). In later Gnosticizing lore he was at times identified with LUCIFER or SATAN, the prince of the powers of air.


This is the Demiurg the creator of this world, and not Lucifer.

He also believes in God:


1. What is God?

The infinite and eternal Reality behind all phenomena, known to the Gnostic under several names, such as the True God, the Unknown Father, the King of Light and many more.


2. What are some further characteristics of God?

Although being infinite, God is in a sense beyond all qualities; one may nevertheless affirm that God is the highest, perfect transcendental Existence in Whom everything originated and by Whom everything is sustained.


This has no reference to Lucifer, but indeed speaks of the true who IS Lucifer
edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
No it doesnt, as the order, and the church are two distinct bodies, and are not the same do not conflate the two. Ecclesia Gnostica is the name of his church and is therefore an incorrect assertion to claim all Gnostic Churches are Ecclesia Gnostica.


Huh? Maybe you should reread what I posted above. I never said all Gnostic Churches are Ecclesia Gnostica. You mentioned the one you are a member of and I am familiar with Hoeller so I quoted him and his catechism.


Your last statement surmises it well with "his opinion". He is one man with one church. He is not infallible nor is a Gnostic is required to believe anything or everything he says like another other priest or preacher. There are plenty of other Gnostic churches and sources to draw upon. As I stated its "his opinion".


It may be his opinion but it does, from everything I have read about him and Ecclesia, carry a good deal of weight within that group. Do you dispute this?


This has no reference to Lucifer


Exactly my point, these are the only references to Lucifer in the entire Catechism. He holds a similar, if not identical, view on Lucifer as many Christians, that of a fallen angel. He does not revere Lucifer in any way.



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Huh? Maybe you should reread what I posted above. I never said all Gnostic Churches are Ecclesia Gnostica. You mentioned the one you are a member of and I am familiar with Hoeller so I quoted him and his catechism.

I never said I was a member of Ecclesia Gnostica. I said I was initiated inside of Ecclesia Gnostica into an order there. I was initiated by the Grand Master who is a Priest at the church.

It may be his opinion but it does, from everything I have read about him and Ecclesia, carry a good deal of weight within that group. Do you dispute this?

Why would I? Its his church he is free to promote his ideas however he sees fit.


Exactly my point, these are the only references to Lucifer in the entire Catechism. He holds a similar, if not identical, view on Lucifer as many Christians, that of a fallen angel. He does not revere Lucifer in any way.

Again its his opinion. Just because he speaks that way does not mean all Gnostics are required to subscribe to his view.
edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification

edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
I never said I was a member of Ecclesia Gnostica. I said I was initiated inside of Ecclesia Gnostica into an order there.


Are you saying that the 'order' that you belong to somhow takes no direction from the teachings and leadership of Hoeller?


Why would I? Its his church he is free to promote his ideas however he sees fit.


And being that you are a part of this orginization what is your perspective on his ideas?


Again its his opinion. Just because he speaks that way does not mean all Gnostics are required to subscribe to his view.


Again, I never said all Gonstics believe what he does. You mentioned Ecclesia Gnostica and one would logically rationalize that anyone who opted to join his church would do so because they agree with his teachings.

P.S. Please learn to use the quote function when responding. There is a Freshmen Forum that reviews the basics of posting here.




edit on 9-11-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude is a beerless Luciferian



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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Are you saying that the 'order' that you belong to somhow takes no direction from the teachings and leadership of Hoeller?

That is exactly what I am saying.


And being that you are a part of this orginization what is your perspective on his ideas?

I am not a member of Ecclessia Gnostica therefore I am not apart of his organization.


Again, I never said all Gonstics believe what he does. You mentioned Ecclesia Gnostica and one would logically rationalize that anyone who opted to join his church would do so because they agree with his teachings.

I have not joined his church therefore I do not follow his teachings.
edit on 9-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
I am not a member of Ecclessia Gnostica therefore I am not apart of his organization.

I have not joined his church therefore I do not follow his teachings.


So can you explain how one joins an order inside of Ecclesia Gnositca without being part of the overarching group?



posted on Nov, 9 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


.Hi everyone, its my first reply, most what I read is very interesting.

There is no difference in the Catholic Church or Free mason worship, both are mislead in a big way. In the Catholic mass after taking the bread the priest will say SECRET FAITH, not many people do not take notice when the priest mentions this.
As in a Catholic mass its also a a secret worship as they sacrifice Jesus in every mass, the same way the Hebrews used to sacrifice a goat or a lamb once a week, this is just a continuation. With Masons its the same, they themselves do not know
the true meaning of of their worship. So basically Jesus and Satan are worshipped in the same way with Masons and Catholics. When the Romans won a battle they would get a symbol from their enemies and hang it on a pole,
just like when you kill a Lion you will grabs its Teeth and put it around your neck. This has not changed in nearly 2000 years, all the symbols are basic symbols of VICTORY against it Enemies. SATAN IS NOT EVEN A BAD WORD,
In Hebrew Satan is SHATON which MEANS OPPONENT, WELL JESUS WAS THE OPPONENT TO THE LEADERS WHO CRUCIFIED HIM, so you can look at Jesus as SATAN AS WELL, so the reason both Free MASONS AND CHRISTIAN WORSHIP THE SAME PERSON, but not knowing that they are actually worshipping the Victory over JESUS AS SATAN.




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