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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by darkhorserider
I respect Augustus very much, and I'm not very well versed on Luciferianism, but from my cursory knowledge, I'd say I'm probably closer to that than I am Christianity. From what I know, it is very similar in morals to Christianity, but it views the Lucifer character as someone who stood up for the rights of mankind and refused to bow to the will of God.


Thank you.

The issue with this is Luciferians do not actually believe Lucifer is either:

1) Real

2) and/or God

And as for 'Luciferian Bible' I would like to see one that posits Lucifer as God as they typically ascribe faith to both Lucifer and Lilith which would preclude membership as neither one is Supreme.


So how does the Luciferian belief structure not work within the context of a supreme being or monotheism (in some cases) which has been established?

Lucifer is not a god and so belief in and reverence or adoration to said being (or principle) cannot impugne on the requirements of the lodge.




posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
So how does the Luciferian belief structure not work within the context of a supreme being or monotheism (in some cases) which has been established?

Lucifer is not a god and so belief in and reverence or adoration to said being (or principle) cannot impugne on the requirements of the lodge.


*sigh*

Again?

You can believe that Lucifer is real (which I do not), this does not preclude membership. When you worship the historical Lucifer you stop being monotheistic and are precluded from membership.

This was the entire reason I named the thread 'Why Masons do not Worship Lucifer (or Satan)', not 'Why Masons do not Believe in Lucifer (or Satan)'.





edit on 8-11-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude is a beerless Luciferian



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
At which point is it reasonable to call someone out for lies and deception? I think we passed that point for Augustus a long time ago, and I was more than generous to give him as much time as I did to demonstrate the validity and accuracy of his claims before I became vocal in calling his BS as actually being BS.


Do me a favor. Ask darkhorse if he thinks you need to be a monotheist before you resort to more bulls**t claims.

And then ask him if he feels that you can worship something other than God and still be a monotheist.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by darkhorserider
 


Thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate it.

Everything you have said is something I already fully support or it's something I see no fault in it. If your style and level of posting was present at the start of this thread, you would have seen me defending posts like yours because I'd have nothing to disagree with or be skeptical about. And for the record, I've always felt Luciferianism in of itself, in my layman's understanding of it, is not inherently good or evil... I only judge actions, not belief. So I'm definitely not a religious fanatic trying to persecute your fraternity.

I have no personal qualms with Augustus, I really don't think anything negative of him as a person, I don't know him as a person... all I disagree with are his bold claims in this thread and his methods of supporting them. I felt the big claims here deserved to be challenged, and that's all I've tried to do.


edit on 8-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


You need to study the teachings and practices of the Luciferian doctrine to understand the uses of astronomical positions and timing. It is heavy in Hermetic ism, Gnosticism, Theosophy, and other esoteric traditions especially eastern which are all mixed together.

These are often traced back by the members of such groups to Babylon or Atlantis which is where the connection to (L)ucifer and Satan comes in (I have already stated there is nothing wrong with that unless taken in the light of Christianity which the OP has done). It is too lengthy a topic to bother arguing with you until you claim that that is what you have been arguing the entire time so I think it is simple enough to end here.

The out of context argument is also absurd as I have shown over and over the entire quote and even sourced it from your debunking websites (though I possess the texts as well) to ensure you don't make such a silly claim.

You can lead a horse to water but apparently they wont drink unless it is a river made of chocolate in a whimsical candy factory . . .
edit on 8-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
You need to study the teachings and practices of the Luciferian doctrine to understand the uses of astronomical positions and timing. It is heavy in Hermetic ism, Gnosticism, Theosophy, and other esoteric traditions especially eastern which are all mixed together.


There is no such thing as a 'Luciferian Doctrine' except in conspiracy theorist's and religious nutter's heads.


These are often traced back by the members of such groups to Babylon or Atlantis which is where the connection to (L)ucifer and Satan comes in. It is too lengthy a topic to bother arguing with you until you claim that that is what you have been arguing the entire time so I think it is simple enough to end here.


Huh? Lucifer and Satan can be traced to Atlantis? So the fictitious can be traced to a fabled place? I think I have better chance if I sing myself to Imagination Land.


The out of context argument is also absurd as I have shown over and over the entire quote and even sourced it from your debunking websites (though I possess the texts as well) to ensure you don't make such a silly claim.


So I take it this means you will not be linking any quotes from the above authors regarding Lucifer? I would not post any rehashed crap either.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Can you please give a good explanation as to why worshiping something which is not a god precludes a person from being a monotheist? Your premise really makes no sense to me, what am I missing?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by darkhorserider
I respect Augustus very much, and I'm not very well versed on Luciferianism, but from my cursory knowledge, I'd say I'm probably closer to that than I am Christianity. From what I know, it is very similar in morals to Christianity, but it views the Lucifer character as someone who stood up for the rights of mankind and refused to bow to the will of God.


Thank you.

The issue with this is Luciferians do not actually believe Lucifer is either:

1) Real

2) and/or God

And as for 'Luciferian Bible' I would like to see one that posits Lucifer as God as they typically ascribe faith to both Lucifer and Lilith which would preclude membership as neither one is Supreme.


I think a Luciferian would fit very well within the principles of Masonry, as long as they don't think Lucifer is the creator of the Universe...


They would have to think Lucifer was the Creator of the Universe to 'fit very well'. They could not get in without professing belief in a Supreme Being. That is the point of this whole thread. If you cannot believe the Historical Lucifer (Satan) is Supreme because Satan was created by God.

If you believe that Lucifer created the Universe then you are really just calling God by a different name that you chose to give to God. This however is not the definition of a Luciferian.
Why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?
edit on 8-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Can you please give a good explanation as to why worshiping something which is not a god precludes a person from being a monotheist? Your premise really makes no sense to me, what am I missing?


Missing? Other then the fact that worshipping, in a religious context, something other then God makes you non-monotheistic?

Answer this: Do you feel a person can worship multiple entities and still be monothestic? The historical Lucifer is not a manifestation of God, he is seperate from God, so if one were to worship God and Lucifer then would one be monotheistic?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?


What is your definition of a 'Luciferian'?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Religious context denotes God or a deity being worshiped.

Since (L)ucifer has already been identified NOT as separation from God or god itself but opposition to and/or usurpation of Godhood being manifested in people's actions it must be addressed with the non-religious definition. This goes for Satan as well.

One of the more popular Luciferian doctrines is that man can become God (known as the source) through actions and deeds which would not prohibit them from any sort of masonic affiliation or violation of the definitions.

In Satanism one does not usually offer worship in a religious sense but offers energy (usually in the form of emotions) as food for the beings and in return is rewarded. This also does not fall under the religious definition as it is actions carried out for one's benefit more like a business transaction.
edit on 8-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Religious context denotes God or a deity being worshiped.

Since (L)ucifer has already been identified NOT as separation from God or god itself but opposition to and/or usurpation of Godhood being manifested in people's actions it must be addressed with the non-religious definition. This goes for Satan as well.


I would consider religious worship to include any entity in a metaphysical aspect. God, gods, demi-gods, personifications, etc.


One of the more popular Luciferian doctrines is that man can become God (known as the source) through actions and deeds which would inhibit them from any sort of masonic affiliation or violation of the definitions.


I would agree. Masonic ritual and teaching does not discuss any Mason 'becoming God'. God is God, God created the Universe. If I somehow learned how to create the Universe then we may be able to have this conversation, but at that point who created me?


In Satanism one does usually offer worship in a religious sense but offers energy (usually in the form of emotions) as food for the beings and in return is rewarded. This also does not fall under the religious definition as it is actions carried out for one's benefit more like a business transaction.


This is Aethistic Satanism and is not compatible with Masonry.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?


What is your definition of a 'Luciferian'?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
The issue with this is Luciferians do not actually believe Lucifer is either:

1) Real

2) and/or God

And as for 'Luciferian Bible' I would like to see one that posits Lucifer as God as they typically ascribe faith to both Lucifer and Lilith which would preclude membership as neither one is Supreme.

If you believe that Lucifer created the Universe then you are really just calling God by a different name that you chose to give to God. This however is not the definition of a Luciferian.


Let's use whatever definition of Luciferian that you used when you wrote the above words.

So why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Let's use whatever definition of Luciferian that you used when you wrote the above words.

So why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?


How do you worship something that you believe is not real?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Can you please give a good explanation as to why worshiping something which is not a god precludes a person from being a monotheist? Your premise really makes no sense to me, what am I missing?


Missing? Other then the fact that worshipping, in a religious context, something other then God makes you non-monotheistic?

Answer this: Do you feel a person can worship multiple entities and still be monothestic? The historical Lucifer is not a manifestation of God, he is seperate from God, so if one were to worship God and Lucifer then would one be monotheistic?
I've explained I feel strongly that monotheism starts and end with the belief in the EXISTENCE of ONLY one God. So unless Lucifer is considered a god, any belief in his existence would have no impact on someone's monotheist status.

What I don't understand is why worshiping something other than a God has an impact on how many gods you believe actually exist.

Worship generally requires a reason for worship. So I would need a context for why something is worshiped in order to understand the implications of said worship. Maybe people just express a great admiration and respect for the stories and qualities associated with Lucifer. Your hypothetical question isn't much to work with, I can't give a good answer without a context to the worship.

Also, how do you believe the historical Lucifer is not a manifestation of God when you also believe God is the sole creator of this universe? I don't know what your views on a supreme creator actually are but when I hear you say Lucifer is not God's manifestation, that Lucifer is separate from God, that implies a 2nd source of creation and not a single source of creation.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Let's use whatever definition of Luciferian that you used when you wrote the above words.

So why can't a Mason believe in the GAOTU while also being a Luciferian?


How do you worship something that you believe is not real?
You tell me, what are they worshiping? You brought up Luciferians and what they believe, so what are you talking about?



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
I've explained I feel strongly that monotheism starts and end with the belief in the EXISTENCE of ONLY one God. So unless Lucifer is considered a god, any belief in his existence would have no impact on someone's monotheist status.


I agree with this 100% as I have been stating all along.


What I don't understand is why worshiping something other than a God has an impact on how many gods you believe actually exist.

Worship generally requires a reason for worship. So I would need a context for why something is worshiped in order to understand the implications of said worship. Maybe people just express a great admiration and respect for the stories and qualities associated with Lucifer. Your hypothetical question isn't much to work with, I can't give a good answer without a context to the worship.


Can you worship Lucifer (or anything else for that matter) in a relgious context and still remain a monotheist?


Also, how do you believe the historical Lucifer is not a manifestation of God when you also believe God is the sole creator of this universe?


This becomes a metaphysical arguement where we end up arguing whether we believe everything in the Universe is a 'manifestation' of God. I personally believe God created everything. I personally do not believe there is a Lucifer. My personal beliefs tend towards Panetheism which I have posted numerous times on this forum (but not yet on this thread).


I don't know what your views on a supreme creator actually are but when I hear you say Lucifer is not God's manifestation, that Lucifer is separate from God, that implies a 2nd source of creation and not a single source of creation.


Seperate as in God gave the historical Lucifer (Satan) free will. Otherwise Lucifer would not have been able to 'fall' from God but would in essence have been 'shoved' by God into his role because he lacked the free will to rebel.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 



They would have to think Lucifer was the Creator of the Universe to 'fit very well'. They could not get in without professing belief in a Supreme Being. That is the point of this whole thread. If you cannot believe the Historical Lucifer (Satan) is Supreme because Satan was created by God.



I think this logic could exclude Christians as well, except that Christians have that convenient Holy Trinity that makes Jesus and God one and the same, except when they're not, LOL.

Christians don't believe Christ is the creator of the universe, but they worship Christ and they pray to Christ, and they look to Christ as their savior and ticket to heaven, but they also believe in God the Father.

I don't know much about what Luciferianists believe, but I don't see why they couldn't believe in a GAOTU, and then also believe he created the Lucifer character who became defiant and was given the realm of Earth, and serves here as the ambassador for mankind, very similar to Jesus except Jesus was pious and humble while Lucifer was defiant. Similar stories, different results, neither one more valid than the other.

I could be way off base, but I don't see how one would be acceptable and the other not.


Do me a favor. Ask darkhorse if he thinks you need to be a monotheist before you resort to more bulls**t claims.

And then ask him if he feels that you can worship something other than God and still be a monotheist.


I absolutely DO BELIEVE one has to be a monotheist. All these other characters are not GAOTU and not the Supreme Being. They are demigods or pseudogods, or characters in a book that symbolize a set of morals. There is only one true, ever-living God, and for me personally, I don't think that god should be personified in any way. It is incomprehensible to us mortals, and not even worth trying to describe.
edit on 8-11-2012 by darkhorserider because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


First of all it is not atheistic satanism as there is no refuting the existence of God.

If you are going to claim there is no Luciferianism or Satanism in masonry you must at least learn their practices and beliefs in addition to the Christian ones and present them in the light which shows such claims are validated.

Since you have made very clear you are not versed in any of the above you could begin by reading the volumes available on Christianity and as far as the other two go:

Some modern texts for you to peruse

The Book of Thoth: A Short Essay on the Tarot of the Egyptians, Being the Equinox Volume III No. V by Aleister Crowley, The Master Therion and Frieda Harris (Jun 1974)
www.amazon.com...=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1

Magick: Liber ABA (Book 4)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431036&sr=8-7&keywords=crowley

777 And Other Qabalistic Writings of Aleister Crowley: Including Gematria & Sepher Sephiroth
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431036&sr=8-6&keywords=crowley

The Book of the Law: Liber Al Vel Legis
Aleister Crowley (Author), Rose Edith Crowley (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431036&sr=8-5&keywords=crowley

A more modern writer on the subject

Adversarial Light
Michael W. Ford
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431005&sr=8-1&keywords=ford+satanism

Adamu: Luciferian Tantra and Sex Magick
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431005&sr=8-5&keywords=ford+satanism

Luciferian Witchcraft
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431005&sr=8-11&keywords=ford+satanism

NATURAL SATANIC WITCHCRAFT
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1352431005&sr=8-13&keywords=ford+satanism


To understand these modern interpretations one must go into the older traditions such as:


The Mystery-Religions [Paperback]
S. Angus (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431717&sr=1-2&keywords=mystery+religion

The Ancient Mysteries: A Sourcebook of Sacred Texts
Marvin W. Meyer (Editor)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431717&sr=1-5&keywords=mystery+religi on

Ancient Mystery Cults (Carl Newell Jackson Lectures)
Walter Burkert (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431717&sr=1-8&keywords=mystery+religion

Mystery Cults of the Ancient World [Hardcover]
Hugh Bowden (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_12?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431717&sr=1-12&keywords=mystery+religion


The Emerald Tablet Of Hermes & The Kybalion: Two Classic Bookson Hermetic Philosophy [Paperback]
Hermes Trismegistus (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431985&sr=1-3&keywords=emerald+tablet


The Emerald Tablet: Alchemy for Personal Transformation [Paperback]
Dennis William Hauck (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352431985&sr=1-1&keywords=emerald+t ablet


Alchemy & Mysticism: The Hermetic Museum (25th) [Paperback]
Alexander Roob (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352432076&sr=1-7&keywords=alchemy


Alchemy: An Introduction to the Symbolism and the Psychology (Studies in Jungian Psychology) [Paperback]
Marie-Louise Von Franz (Author)
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352432076&sr=1-3&keywords=alchem y

These are a few that you could use to get a better understanding of the mindset and practices involved in the doctrines which you claim no affiliation to. I am not saying it would be a perfect match but you will notice the symbolism is drawn from the same sources and often similar practices (the rituals) aim for similar purposes.

As I have already stated I am done arguing with you as you don't seem to have a grasp of the material as a whole to actually have a discussion on any matter aside from masonry.



posted on Nov, 8 2012 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
You tell me, what are they worshiping? You brought up Luciferians and what they believe, so what are you talking about?


Typically nothing.

I have been called a Luciferian/Lucifer-worshiper/Lucifer-doctrine-follower so many times on this forum that I got fed up and actually researched what they believe.

They are more along the lines of Ethical Egoists who like to use a shocking term for their beliefs (Luciferianism). They do not worship Lucifer, or anything else for that matter as far as I have found, but try to adhere to either; the belief that Lucifer (Satan) should be followed instead of God because he rebeled and was wronged or that Lucifer is a trait of Satan that is his inherent 'good' side and they admire this aspect (knowledge, freedom, etc.).

Since they worship nothing they could technically join Masonry if they believed in a Supreme Being. However, they would find nothing that aligns with their beliefs since, contrary to what they ascribe to, we place God, our Country, our Family, our Neighbors and then ourselves first. Egoists, by defintion, place themselves first. They would probably think we were a bunch of fools who should be helping ourselves prior to helping others.

Does this make sense as I have explained it?




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