It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Why did the OP make the initial claim all Masons are required to have a belief in God but 40 pages later it changed into claiming all Masons are required to only worship God and all Masons are required to believe in the existence of only one God?
Worship of anything else preludes a monotheistic belief. I know this is a fairly simple concept and I am continually astounded by your repeated inability to wrap your brain around this.
What changed, the OP's truth or the OP's lies?
Funny, coming from the person who is guilty of blantant goal post shifting and even when his revised requests are made avoids commenting on said revised requests.
Originally posted by Erbal
Do you even know what PRELUDE means?
So you have no comment on the fact your claims have drastically changed from when you wrote the OP and now? You know, it looks like when you wrote the OP, you believed theism was the requirement...
...and when you were challenged you found a source you could pass off as proof monotheism is the requirements, and that is what you decided to run with. Too bad it's not currently true!
You don't have to claim to be a monotheist to become a Mason!
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
That is suspiciously vague. Can you expand on that so it's clear what YOU are talking about?
Claiming to be a monotheist and then worshiping another entity other than God would nullify one's standing as a monotheist.
What???? Why is that true?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalIs a fallen angel a God? If not, it would then be permitted for a Mason to believe in the existence of Lucifer AND worship him, as long as they still believe in the existence of at least one God to satisfy the theism requirement (or only one God if they are in the few jurisdictions that require monotheism).
Worship of anything other than God would prelcude somoene from being a monotheist.
If Lucifer is not a God, EVERY SINGLE MASON, including the monotheists, can believe in him and worship him.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalEither Lucifer is a God or Lucifer is not a God... but you can't have it both ways with a double standard.
I do not believe Lucifer is even real but if he were he would be, as historically described, a fallen angel and therefore not a God.
You are ignoring my point, completely.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalYour link says it follows The Commission on Information for Recognition.
At the website for the source of the standards of recognition, they explicitly do NOT mention anything that can reasonably interpreted as monotheism.
www.recognitioncommission.org...
It's the link I have posted 10 times and you've ignored or dismissed 10 times.
The standards of recognition is just plain theism.
The standards that the Grand Lodge of Minnesota uses are listed in black and white on the page I quoted and it clearly has the word 'monotheism' included. Are you trying to tell me the Grand Lodge of Minnesota does not have this stipulation?
No. I claimed the current Standard of Recognition is a belief in God, and that is theism in general.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalThey follow the standards of recognition advocated by the Commission on Information of Recognition!
Here, I'll post the link again. Theism is currently the standard. All regular Grand Lodges are consistent with theism as the standard of recognition.
Again, the word 'monotheism' is clearly used on their page to define how the recognize other Grand Lodges in relation to themselves. Why do they use this word if it is not applicable? Why is it there if it is not a requirement?
You claimed that the 1956 standards are not in use except for one Grand Lodge. This has been thoroughly and completely disproved by the numerous citations I provided several pages back and is reinforced by the fact that the Grand Lodge of Minnesota used those standards to recognize another Grand Lodge in 2002.
Originally posted by Erbal
You don't have to claim to be a monotheist to become a Mason!
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
What???? Why is that true?
You don't have a monopoly on the definition of monotheism... I have NEVER seen any dictionary or source define monotheism as being the worship of one God.
What makes YOU believe worship has anything to do with monotheism? And how do YOU define worship?
Did you make up your own language?
If Lucifer is not a God, EVERY SINGLE MASON, including the monotheists, can believe in him and worship him.
Are you telling me monotheist Masons can't believe in the existence of non-Gods?
Are you telling me monotheist Masons can't respect, revere, and admire a non-God? They do it all the time, you cannot deny it without blatantly lying!
This is hitting a new record of ridiculous BS. Your lies are too much for you to keep up with.
You are ignoring my point, completely.
The Grand Lodge's do not supersede the Standards of Recognition set out by the Commission on Standards of Recognition! If you want to be recognized as a regular Grand Lodge, you MUST satisfy the standards of recognition!
And I've shown a link about 15 times that the Standards of Recognition currently adopted by the commission are clear: THEISM, not monotheism, is the standard of recognition!
That doesn't mean a Grand Lodge can't go ABOVE the standard and require monotheism... it means they can't go below the standard and still be recognized.
If a Grand Lodge is currently recognized, it means they require theism.
No. I claimed the current Standard of Recognition is a belief in God, and that is theism in general.
If the standard of recognition is a belief in ONLY one God, it would monotheism, which is a specific type of theism. Some Grand Lodges go above theism, a vast majority do not.
I never claimed only 1 lodge requires monotheism... I specifically said you only found 1 that requires monotheism and you found 20 more that do NOT require monotheism.
This thread needs to be shut down if all you are going to do is tell lies and use circular arguments to repeat your lies.
Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Did you miss the part were it was stated that Lucifer (capitol L) is not found in the sacred texts but rather lucifer which means that it is not the name of the fallen angel? Lucifer (little l) is used as an allegory for the manifestation of the 'devil' a.k.a. its works, not as a name for the devil. You seem to be taking Dante and Milton as the official presentation of doctrine when they are nothing of the sort.
Lucifer
(Hebrew helel; Septuagint heosphoros, Vulgate lucifer)
The name Lucifer originally denotes the planet Venus, emphasizing its brilliance. The Vulgate employs the word also for "the light of the morning" (Job 11:17), "the signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32), and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). Metaphorically, the word is applied to the King of Babylon (Isaiah 14:12) as preeminent among the princes of his time; to the high priest Simon son of Onias (Ecclesiasticus 50:6), for his surpassing virtue, to the glory of heaven (Apocalypse 2:28), by reason of its excellency; finally to Jesus Christ himself (2 Peter 1:19; Apocalypse 22:16; the "Exultet" of Holy Saturday) the true light of our spiritual life.
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4). Source
1. Devil does not rule in hell
2. Lucifer is only given the proper name by Dante and Milton as a being while the Church doctrine uses it as an allegory for the manifestations of the devil. It commonly used as a personification while the true meaning is that it was in reference to a king of Babylon who embodied the concept (and works) of the devil.
3. You already identified Jerome's translation as false and so to use it now as the name of the devil works heavily against your use of Lucifer as the name of the devil.
4. Your blatant misunderstanding (or possible misrepresentation) of the faith usurps any credibility you have in arguing that masonry cannot worship (L)ucifer.
5. (L)ucifer in the proper understanding as a king of Babylon and its astrotheology does have significant associations with modern masonry and historic masonic works which has been outlined in Washington D.C. (see David Ovason) and the writings of Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, Manly P. Hall and others.
On the great seal. Thompson included the eye of providence a widely used symbol of masonry and the pyramid another widely used symbol of masonry (especially at that moment in time) and followed the guidelines laid out by a mason and a man highly regarded by masonry. One does not have to be a mason to use their symbols to appeal to them when it is obvious how much influence the organization had surrounding the top levels of influence in America.
Unless every single Grand Lodge requires you to claim to be a monotheist, it is true that you do not have to claim to be a monotheist to become a Mason.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
You don't have to claim to be a monotheist to become a Mason!
According to the multiple Grand Lodges I quoted you must.
It's pretty simple: theism and monotheism do NOT require worship, only belief!
The explain to me logically how you can be a monotheist and still worship multiple beings.
I asked you to give your definition of worship in general and you deflect by asking me about worship in a religious context? You can worship whatever you like, however you like, but the moment you believe in the existence of more than one deity is the moment you are no longer a monotheist by definition.
Again, explain to me how one can worship in a religious context more then one being and still be a monotheist.
If a monotheist doesn't consider Lucifer a God, why couldn't that monotheist believe Lucifer exists?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalIf Lucifer is not a God, EVERY SINGLE MASON, including the monotheists, can believe in him and worship him.
And then how would you remain monotheistic?
Ahhh, so you agree a monotheist CAN worship a non-God after all.
I respect and admire many people, this does not mean I worship them the same way I would God or as a god.
You keep bringing up the same stuff exact that has already been discussed and refuted more times than I can keep track of... I'm not trying to follow all of your circular arguments to the bitter end.
You keep throwing out the comments 'lies' and 'bulls**t' when it is you who disengeniously avoids commenting on anything that disproves your point until reminded repeatedly to do so.
A total of 6 Master Masons make up the Commission that decides the recognition standards for all of Canada, USA, Mexico, DC, and Puerto Rico. In what way does that mean the Grand Lodges of these areas are the Commission itself?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalYou are ignoring my point, completely.
The Grand Lodge's do not supersede the Standards of Recognition set out by the Commission on Standards of Recognition! If you want to be recognized as a regular Grand Lodge, you MUST satisfy the standards of recognition!
Hello! The Grand Lodges are the Commission. Do you think it is some nebulous non-Masonic entity that sets the rules? The Conference of Grand Masters appoints the membership based on a geographic rotation. All this does is further display your appalling ignorance on all things Masonic.
Why? Grand Lodges have the sovereignty to require monotheism without risk of losing their recognition because monotheism is in compliance with the standard that is "a belief in God."
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalAnd I've shown a link about 15 times that the Standards of Recognition currently adopted by the commission are clear: THEISM, not monotheism, is the standard of recognition!
Tell that to all the other Grand Lodges I cited.
Oh I remember you asserting this as true, I don't remember you PROVING IT IS TRUE.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalThat doesn't mean a Grand Lodge can't go ABOVE the standard and require monotheism... it means they can't go below the standard and still be recognized.
If a Grand Lodge is currently recognized, it means they require theism.
Wrong. As I have previously showed any Grand Lodge in amity with Minnesota, New Hampshire, etc has to meet their standards. And their standards were made very clear to you.
Let's agree on a burden of proof.
Prove that the vast majority do not. You are giving your opinion only. I have responded with verifiable links.
Prove they actually TEACH monotheism to a degree that only monotheists, and not theists, could endure.
Besides the ones that clearly mention it you have chosen to discount the ones the make clear that Masonry 'teaches monothesim'. How do you teach monotheism to the non-montheist?
Originally posted by Erbal
reply to post by darkhorserider
Am I wrong is assuming you feel a belief in a god does not inherently involve the worship of said god? That theism and worship are 2 distinctly different concepts despite any connection and similarities between them?
If that is how you feel, I couldn't agree more.
Originally posted by Erbal
reply to post by darkhorserider
So what are you opinions about this thread and the OP's claims?
In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
The Syriac version and the version of Aquila derive the Hebrew noun helel from the verb yalal, "to lament"; St. Jerome agrees with them (In Isaiah 1.14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright as the morning star.
Originally posted by Erbal
Unless every single Grand Lodge requires you to claim to be a monotheist, it is true that you do not have to claim to be a monotheist to become a Mason.
It's pretty simple: theism and monotheism do NOT require worship, only belief!
I asked you to give your definition of worship in general and you deflect by asking me about worship in a religious context? You can worship whatever you like, however you like, but the moment you believe in the existence of more than one deity is the moment you are no longer a monotheist by definition.
If a monotheist doesn't consider Lucifer a God, why couldn't that monotheist believe Lucifer exists?
Ahhh, so you agree a monotheist CAN worship a non-God after all.
You keep bringing up the same stuff exact that has already been discussed and refuted more times than I can keep track of... I'm not trying to follow all of your circular arguments to the bitter end.
A total of 6 Master Masons make up the Commission that decides the recognition standards for all of Canada, USA, Mexico, DC, and Puerto Rico. In what way does that mean the Grand Lodges of these areas are the Commission itself?
And I've shown a link about 15 times that the Standards of Recognition currently adopted by the commission are clear: THEISM, not monotheism, is the standard of recognition!
Why? Grand Lodges have the sovereignty to require monotheism without risk of losing their recognition because monotheism is in compliance with the standard that is "a belief in God."
Oh I remember you asserting this as true, I don't remember you PROVING IT IS TRUE.
But hey, if you did it once it should be easy for you to repeat it for clarity... we all know you don't mind repeating yourself over and over.
Let's agree on a burden of proof.
I have already proven the Standards for Recognition are simply a belief in God, aka theism.
We know all lodges are consistent with the standards and some lodges do use explicit monotheism wording.
I propose any Grand Lodge which does not explicitly state they require monotheism, or a believe in ONLY one God (only being a key word). will be marked as a Lodge which does not specifically require monotheism. OK?
Prove they actually TEACH monotheism to a degree that only monotheists, and not theists, could endure.
Originally posted by darkhorserider
I respect Augustus very much, and I'm not very well versed on Luciferianism, but from my cursory knowledge, I'd say I'm probably closer to that than I am Christianity. From what I know, it is very similar in morals to Christianity, but it views the Lucifer character as someone who stood up for the rights of mankind and refused to bow to the will of God.
I think a Luciferian would fit very well within the principles of Masonry, as long as they don't think Lucifer is the creator of the Universe...
Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4).
The official presentation is NOT Jerome's translation. It does not matter if you were raised 'in the faith' as you continue to argue what the official beliefs are and are proven wrong on every point. This is getting incredibly ridiculous. Who ever raised you 'in the faith' seems to have merely fed you constant BS from Hollywood.
David Ovason clearly outlines the astrological implications of the building of Washington D.C. and the incredible masonic influence and overseeing of said city. If you want me to comb through the book and provide you with pages and pages of masons and the buildings I would violate the T&C on copyright and posting from other sources.
Mackey, Pike, and Hall have all been quoted from thoroughly enough for you unless you want to waste pages and pages to repeat them all over again.
For the connection in temple alignments one must recognize the ancient religions were the mysteries and so the temples built by them follow their beliefs. Pyramids at Giza aligned with Orion (do I really need to provide a source for you here?).
And to your comment that the majority of the founders were not masons you are correct by they represent one of if not the largest single bodies outside of American and soldier. The pyramid was appear on masonic aprons and regalia at the time so arguing it as not masonic, when Franklin and Jefferson (not mason - respected among masons) told him to combine Christian and Egyptian symbols which was a popular trend among masons of the time, is not a genuine debunk of the 'coincidence' between the two.