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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
...so far you guys have only shown 1 Grand Lodge who made that choice but many who have no made that choice.


One more for the road. Here is another:


However, every Mason professes a belief in a monotheistic deity www.phoenixlodge115.org...


I am in a New York State of mind because they really, really diasagree with what you were saying.

The New York Times...

The Daily News...




posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Since when does a religion control what a Mason believes?
edit on 6-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:53 PM
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reply to post by Erbal
 

Well, with this outlook, you're not going to be objective to whatever I write.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by ExuLucifer
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 


Since when does a religion control what a Mason believes?
edit on 6-11-2012 by ExuLucifer because: clarification


I never said it does. I do see a clear cut line between belief in something and worship (and honor for that matter) and Augustus is defining worship in a strictly religious sense in one matter and not so when the term is associated with masonic title.

Augustus has been arguing that Satan and Lucifer are strictly Christian and making absurd claims about the aforementioned.

I am merely pointing out that he is making up the beliefs of the religion in the image of a fictional work, interestingly his arguments on the matter are divinely comical.

See the previous page for an outline of what we have been arguing about for too many pages (my post).
edit on 6-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:00 PM
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However, every Mason professes a belief in a monotheistic deity


I know this personally to be incorrect, as I know Deists, and Buddhists in the strictest sense do not believe in God, as Guatama Buddha rejected the idea of a creator deity, and I've sat in "Regular" lodge with Buddhists.



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 

That is not my outlook, you've given me no reason to assume you are an expert.

You essentially declared you are an authority on this subject and my interpretation means nothing if it's not in agreement with yours...

So in response to your post, I asked you to give a good explanation of what your interpretation is and why it is correct. I guess you are either unwilling or incapable of giving a good explanation... do you lack truth or confidence?



posted on Nov, 6 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by Erbal
 

Section 3301 speaks for itself. And as a Past Master I had to pass a test on the Code & Digest to become eligible to be elected as Worshipful Master.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 12:32 AM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


So then you are making claims you are not willing to support or claims you are not able to support? You just want to impose yourself as an authority on the subject and persuade readers to blindly take your word as gospel?

You are afraid to tell the truth, that is what speaks for itself.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal



Saying you require a belief in a Supreme Being does not exclude any belief in more than 1 deity.
Saying you require monotheism does exclude any belief in more then 1 deity.

If the words we both use in our conversation do not share the same meaning, we are not talking about the same thing. If you want to secretly use nonstandard definitions of words when you know I am using the standard definitions of words, you are being intentionally misleading and deceptive.


OK...at least I see what you are saying. You are saying masons can worship a plethora of Gods. I dont personally know any who do because most of them are Christian, but I hear that Hindus can join Freemasonry.

Hindus believe in numerous Gods. But thats not the reason they can join Freemasonry, the reason is that they also believe in an overarching supreme and singular God.

So in some ways you are right but in some ways you arent.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
1) You claimed that Christianity preached that the 'devil' rules over 'hell'.


No genius, I said it was a Christian popular misconception. Nowhere did I say it was 'preached' but feel free to go back through 800+ posts to find a quote of me doing so.


You claim that you included Dante's works in your original claim which is a flat out lie. Lucifer is not identified as Satan but as the leader of the fallen angels.


Milton followed Dante and added to his work. Anyone who has a passing knowledge of historical fiction would have known this. Nice try though.


You claim Satan is a purely Christian concept after disregarding the Hebrew Bible which includes Ha Satan as the accuser or the opposer and is not identified as a fallen angel but rather as an individual or a body of peoples.


I covered ha-satan in depth during this thread and correctly identified him in his proper role. I did not identify him as a fallen angel.


You clearly have a poor conception of the issue at hand and it would do you well to research the matter further before you continue arguing something for which you have demonstrated little working knowledge of.


Perhaps you should go back and reread the thread because it is obvious you are having serious short-term memory issues and may in fact be somewhat delusional.


2) You claim that honor and worship come from the same old English which is also not supported by the dictionary...


Your own source proved you wrong:


archaic-entitled to honour or respect.


Oxford right, Broccoli disengenious.


The masonic definition is then disingenuous in its use per the terms definition.


Yeah? Is that so? Maybe you should drop your source a line and let them know they need to change their dictionary because you disagree with them.


3) The great seal of the United States:
The masons adopted its use early and proof of this can be found on a jug dated 1804...


What does a jug from England dating from after the Great Seal was designed have to do with your arguement?


The only architectural pyramid in Wasington D.C. (gnoring the pyramid proposed as the original Washington monument to which the later was capped with a pyramideon) which seems to reflect the seal pyramid is distinctly masonic. The great tower of the House of the Temple, designed for Scottish Right...


Which was built in the 1900's. Again, what does this have to do with the creation of the Seal?


The pyramid was prominent among the masons from the time and though the men responsible for the design are not officially masons...


This is where you should have stopped to prevent yourself from looking like a bigger fool. None of them were Masons, 'offical' or otherwise. The pyramid does not appear in Masonic ritual let alone an unfinished one as on the Great Seal. Thomson was not a Mason, Thomson designed the Seal.

History right, Broccoli wrong.


...it is clear that the symbolism is masonic and the men surrounding the project were overwhelmingly masons.


And was the final design submitted by a Mason? Thought not.





edit on 7-11-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
No where does any Christian text state that Lucifer nor Satan are Supreme Beings, all the texts state that the being is below the Supreme Being.


I never said that they did.


How does monotheism or belief in a Supreme Being affect this as belief is not worship and worship is not limited to a deity (see definition posted an absurd number of times which you fail to recognize)?


I wish I could write this in crayon for you. I never said people could not worship many things, I said Masons could not because they are required to be monotheistic. How does worship of something other then ONE God make you Monotheistic?

Exactly, it does not.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
...so far you guys have only shown 1 Grand Lodge who made that choice but many who have no made that choice.


*crickets chirp*

*tumbleweed rolls past*

You are surprisingly silent. Do you need more sources?



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal
 


Perhaps I should try this another way,

If I were to ask you for a number between 1 and 50, and that number corresponded to the amount of Grand lodges that would post specific enough verbiage for you to agree that masonry requires a belief in ONE God, or as you like to say, monotheism, what might that number be?

I would ask that the moderators be kind and not impose a penalty on your answer should it be only 1 line. If a penalty must be applied, please do so to my account.
(as it should only be a number)

Than you so much for your understanding.
How many times have I stated that Monotheism is a belief that ONLY one God exists? So why are you making the choice to remove the word ONLY like it's not a quintessential aspect of monotheism?

I have made it crystal clear what I want to see proof of.

I want to see proof that the standards of recognition for grand lodges, in the US, currently demands all jurisdictions to require every member of Masonry believes in the existence of ONLY one deity. (monotheism with everything not monotheistic being excluded)

So far I have seen conclusive proof that the standards of recognition for grand lodges, in the US, currently demands all jurisdictions to require that member of Masonry believes in the existence of at least one deity. (theism with atheism being excluded)

Either every Grand Lodge, and thus all lodges under their rule, MUST be monotheistic OR every Grand Lodge must be theistic and they each have the OPTION to restrict membership to just monotheists. If it's the latter, I suppose you could show me every Grand Lodge that has chosen to go above the standard of theism and only accept monotheists, and so far you guys have only shown 1 Grand Lodge who made that choice but many who have no made that choice.
edit on 6-11-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)


I don't know if you know this or not, but they have to put warning labels on hair dryers so people won't use them in the shower. They have to put warning signs at the drive through window that your coffee is going to be hot. Do you know why they had to do that? It's because somewhere, sometime, some idiot did something really, really stupid. We all look at it like it's common sense to just KNOW these things are like they are.

So you go on slitting hairs and thinking yourself superior as you have found if you cannot win on merrit, you can outlast them and win by default.

As for me, when I see something that says "One God", or "The Grand Architect" I will forgo the idiot response of trying to dissect the meaning of the word "is" and just know that it means "One God".

Be careful, the coffee is usually hot.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Your own source proved you wrong:


archaic-entitled to honour or respect.



Maybe you should provide a source for this instead of placing in a quotes as if it comes from some authority. because nowhere in the definition does support for your quote appear. Are you delusional?

In relation to the great seal I love how you leave out all mention of the master masons' aprons and minted coins with the pyramids and even the 13 stepped minted coin from the 1700's (that would be the 18th century).

You literally argued that the FLC placed the 'devil' as ruling over 'hell' which has been dis proven. And your idea of hell with people being tortured has also been proven to be non-exclusive to Christianity.



The concept of Satan was purely a Christian creation. There was no legend or myth of a fallen angel who presides in Hell until the Christian era and it was not fully codified until 1213 in the Fourth Lateran Council.


preside
oxforddictionaries.com...


Definition of preside
verb
[no object]

1be in the position of authority in a meeting or other gathering:

the prime minister will preside at an emergency cabinet meeting (as adjective presiding) the sentence imposed by the presiding judge
(preside over) be in charge of (a place or situation): Johnson has presided over eight matches since Beck’s dismissal

2 (preside at) play (a musical instrument, especially a keyboard instrument) at a public gathering.

Origin:

early 17th century: from French présider, from Latin praesidere, from prae 'before' + sedere 'sit'


Belief in a Supreme Being has already been dealt with as it is not the same as worship which is ultimately what your argument boils down to.

You even have former regular masons informing you that there are deists, Satanists, and Luciferians practicing along side you in lodge.

edit on 7-11-2012 by FriedBabelBroccoli because: 101



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by Erbal
 

I made my claim. I gave my supportive evidence (Section 3301). I have sat and talked with Past Grand Masters, the Board of Custodians, and the Jurisprudence Committee and they say its pretty clear. Now we don't ask so often no one is charged, but our Code & Digest is clear and it is said during our 3rd degree lecture.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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www.recognitioncommission.org...


The standards of Recognition are summarized as follows:

Legitimacy of Origin
Exclusive Territorial Jurisdiction, except by mutual consent and/or treaty.
Adherence to the Ancient Landmarks � specifically, a Belief in God, the Volume of Sacred Law as an indispensable part of the Furniture of the Lodge, and the prohibition of the discussion of politics and religion.


The standards of recognition clearly THEISM is one of the 3 universal landmarks that must be adhered to for recognition in 'regular' Freemasonry.

Not 1 Mason in this thread has attempted to explain why the standard of recognition clearly describes theism and not monotheism.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by network dude
 


They put disclaimers on hot items specifically to avoid losing lawsuits and not because they are concerned about morons. That is common sense, stop spewing out BS.

You know deep down that despite Freemasonry being connected to monotheism, Freemasonry does not have a universal rule that everyone must be a monotheist. You know this to be true, you guys are splitting hairs and doing backflips to prove some ridiculous premise that no Mason can worship Lucifer.

It's simply not true... ANY Mason can worship Lucifer if they so desire to do so... and we both know it's a statistical fact that some Masons have and do worship Lucifer. But we both know that doesn't equate to anything close to a majority of Masons worshiping Lucifer.

So show some backbone and face the truth.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Maybe you should provide a source for this instead of placing in a quotes as if it comes from some authority. because nowhere in the definition does support for your quote appear. Are you delusional?


Uh, oh. Short-term memory loss strikes again. I have three words for you; ginko-freakin'-biloba.

This was your quote below to help refresh what you obviously forgot posting:


Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli



Definition of worshipful
adjective

1feeling or showing reverence and adoration: her voice was full of worshipful admiration
archaic entitled to honour or respect.


...

If you don't like it go argue with the Oxford Dictionary.


Since you forgot to link the Oxford Dictionary that you used as a source I will do it for you. Look, it is still the same definition!


Definition of worshipful
adjective
1feeling or showing reverence and adoration:

her voice was full of worshipful admiration

archaic entitled to honour or respect.


Please try to remember what you post in the future. I always do.


In relation to the great seal I love how you leave out all mention of the master masons' aprons and minted coins with the pyramids and even the 13 stepped minted coin from the 1700's (that would be the 18th century).


I must have missed all the links that you did not provide. Sort of like your dictionary quote. Maybe you can post the images for us to review if you feel it is relevant to the Original Post.


You literally argued that the FLC placed the 'devil' as ruling over 'hell' which has been dis proven. And your idea of hell with people being tortured has also been proven to be non-exclusive to Christianity.


I said the the Fourth Laterna Council codified the Church's dogma on Hell and Satan.


Belief in a Supreme Being has already been dealt with as it is not the same as worship which is ultimately what your argument boils down to.


It sure has. Monotheism has been sources to numerous Grand Lodges and I am sure I can produce more quotes if the people suffering from cranial-density-disorder still do not grasp the concept.


You even have former regular masons informing you that there are deists, Satanists, and Luciferians practicing along side you in lodge.


Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet and say that sat anywhere with anyone. I have provided links for all of my statements. You and your mysterious supporter have not.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Not 1 Mason in this thread has attempted to explain why the standard of recognition clearly describes theism and not monotheism.


Not one Erbal on this thread has disproved that monotheism is not the standard of recognition. All the Erbals have done is show that, apparently, until we have a link from every single Grand Lodge with the correct verbage (in his mind) that he will not admit he is incorrect.



posted on Nov, 7 2012 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
It's simply not true... ANY Mason can worship Lucifer if they so desire to do so... and we both know it's a statistical fact that some Masons have and do worship Lucifer.


Then they have lied to gain addmission because as has bene explained ad naseum from the very beginning of this thread that Lucifer is NOT A SUPREME BEING.

Lying to gain addmission is grounds for immediate expulsion and the person so lying is not considered a Mason. As every Mason knows the answer to the question, 'Where were you first made a Mason', is, 'In my heart'. Lying to yourself is worse than lying to others.




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