Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
False, the entire concept you present of both the 'devil' (ruling in hell) and 'hell' (complete separation from God/ lake of fire) do not even follow the Roman Catholic definitions or codices.

Really?

All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ. Fourth Lateran Council

Where will they receive 'perpetual punishment'? In a time out chair?

You are running your mouth trying to use the Fourth Lateran Council as a cure all when you don't even seem to understand its contents.

I understand them well enough because I read it. Maybe you should use the link I provided and do the same before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

The Roman Catholics do not represent the whole of Christian beliefs, they may posses the largest body of followers but this is not an election so 53% does not win anything.

This represents a majority and supports my point.

Even if it did, you misrepresent the teachings of said body which would not support your argument anyways as there is much evidence of belief in the 'devil' (and his fallen angels) far before 1213.

Hey genius, I said, at least five times already, that I do not dispute that there was a belief in the Devil prior to 1213. Only that the Fourth Lateran Council codified it into Christian mythos at that time. Do you need me to explain this to you again?

On secret orders or infiltrations into the masonic brotherhood, you merely mocked it in earlier sessions however there is a body of evidence to support it.

I do not see the relevance of this to the thread topic. Start another one if you wish to discuss this.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

I'm not a UGLE Mason so why would I talk about their recognition. Plus, no the UGLE no longer recognizes the Grand Orient of Italy (GOI), but rather now recognizes the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy while the American Grand Lodges recognize the GOI.

Those governments that oppress Freemasonry have in common the accusation of political organization within its ranks, which I (personal opinion) find to be no crime in/and of itself, which is corroborated with the actions of lodges such as that found in the Green Dragon Tavern prior to the revolutionary war of America (www.masonicworld.com... ).

The governments that have opposed and oppressed Freemasonry have fascistic and tyrannical tendancies in common with each other. The Green Dragon had non-Masonic groups in it as well who were involved with the Revolution. The road to the Revolutionary War is not so simplistic.

Claims that freemasonry is decentralized are neutered by the common defensive tactic practiced by masons that masonic lodges are not chartered/recognized by a Grand Lodge.

Freemasonry IS decentralized because every Grand Lodge is independent and sovereign. There is no single central authority over all the Grand Lodges around the world. There are multiple Supreme Councils of the Scottish Rite around the world. The York Rite in America is composed 3 different, separate, independent, and sovereign groups, and outside these groups are splintered with their own leadership and structure.

When I talked about the decentralization of Freemasonry it wasn't in reference to any clandestine or irregular Lodge, I was commenting on your assertion there could exist some "inner core" that pulls the strings behind the scenes. As I said, there are far too many variables for them to exist. It's not a defensive tactic, but just rather logical and common sense.

The discussion usually denigrates into this lodge or that was chartered by another lodge that is not recognized by my lodge or some other lodge which is then passed off onto the constitutions of freemasonry which is used to show the lodge in question was not following the agreed upon laws of some grand lodge, of course none of this would have come to light unless said lodge was exposed in its disregard for the laws and then has its charter removed.

Yeah...you really don't know how Lodges are created. You constantly show how little you actually know.

Example of chartered lodge not following constitutions having charter revoked upon publication (to the public) of its violations;
Masonic Lodge Is Suspended After Shooting

Although the Lodge suffered (and lost there charter not just suspended), the incident occurred in a "FellowCraft Club" not during a sanctioned Lodge meeting. An unfortunate incident occurred in a stupid club "ceremony" and those guilty were dealt with as the law allows.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Still looking for the part where it explicitly states that the 'devil' rules over hell . . . .

Then applying your logic what the majority of body of masons practice is then the only body of masonry.

So you may no longer use the argument that one grand lodge does not hold sway over the teachings of a lodge chartered by a separate grand lodge thus integrating irregular lodges with regular lodges.

Now all irregular lodge activity can be attributed to regular lodge activity or v.v. with your logic.

reply to post by KSigMason


Oh the not my lodge deflection, good one.

I love how the 'you know nothing about masonry' accusation has now arisen also. Does this apply to your own personal branch of masonry?
That of the lodge you attend?
That of the grand lodge which chartered your lodge?
That of some other lodge or grand lodge?

You have clarified that not all of these lodges contain the same craft.

So by AM deduction I should locate which lodge holds the largest body of participants and attribute that to you.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Still looking for the part where it explicitly states that the 'devil' rules over hell . . . .

Do you really need to be spoon-fed? The Fourth Lateran Council explicitly conveyed that for "the wicked, a perpetual punishment with the devil". This takes place in Hell. If you think it takes place anywhere else then maybe you should mention it to the Catholic Church:

"Therefore, all who die in actual mortal sin are excluded from the kingdom of God and will suffer forever the torments of hell where there is no redemption." (The First Vatican Council, 1869-70: The Church Teaches, 892]

Then applying your logic what the majority of body of masons practice is then the only body of masonry.

So you may no longer use the argument that one grand lodge does not hold sway over the teachings of a lodge chartered by a separate grand lodge thus integrating irregular lodges with regular lodges.

Sorry. Wrong. All United States Grand Lodges use the mutually recognized Landmarks I posted earlier, one of which defines the belief in a Supreme Being. If they do not then amity does not exist.

Now all irregular lodge activity can be attributed to regular lodge activity or v.v. with your logic.

It would help if you acutally read and understood what you were trying to talk about prior to posting.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Still looking for the part where it explicitly states that the 'devil' rules over hell . . . .

Do you really need to be spoon-fed? The Fourth Lateran Council explicitly conveyed that for "the wicked, a perpetual punishment with the devil". This takes place in Hell. If you think it takes place anywhere else then maybe you should mention it to the Catholic Church:

"Therefore, all who die in actual mortal sin are excluded from the kingdom of God and will suffer forever the torments of hell where there is no redemption." (The First Vatican Council, 1869-70: The Church Teaches, 892]

The verse says nothing of the 'devil' having governorship over 'hell'.

Do you understand now? There is NO 'devil' ruling over hell. The FLC actually supports my claim of no 'hell' as of yet if you were only to read the Book of Revelations. In it humanity is brought back in the flesh upon the return of Christ for the final judgement, AFTER which those who are in mortal sin are thrown into the 'lake of fire' WITH (not under) the 'devil'.


Don't pull the 'you don't know anything card' its weak and does not help your argument as it requires the agent opposing you to recognize some mysterious authority given to you which has not been demonstrated nor proofed by any unbiased third party.

Belief and worship have separate though connected meanings in english.
Belief:
dictionary.reference.com...

be·lief
noun
1.something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3.confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4.a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

Worship
www.merriam-webster.com...

1 : chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Belief is possible without worship.

Your claims of belief in a supreme deity have no bearing on whether one worships that deity or not. It is not relevant to the discussion of whether masons worship Lucifer or Satan.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

There is a difference between the UGLE and the American Grand Lodges in who we recognize in Italy, and when. Fact is fact, the Grand Orient of Italy wasn't recognized until the 90s by the American Grand Lodges.

My "you know nothing about Freemasonry" argument is supported by the number of inaccurate posts you have made in regards to how we operate, establish, manage, and structure Freemasonry, and its various bodies.

You have clarified that not all of these lodges contain the same craft.

Its the same Craft, just small variances unique to each jurisdiction.

So by AM deduction I should locate which lodge holds the largest body of participants and attribute that to you.

Attribute what? Nothing of what I said discussed the size of the Lodge. Freemasonry has a Constitutional government with democratic representation.

Moving on from the 'devil' ruling 'hell' issue for a moment.

On masonry's use of ritual, ceremonies and the invocation of God during said activities. Ritual involving the invocation of God usually resides in the camp of religion. Let alone with a worshipful master and grand high priest presiding over the ritual(s).

1. Please explicitly define how masonry is not a defacto religious order or body who worships, while using the methodology and nomenclature of well known religious orders.

According to:
The Hand = Book of the Chapter : containing monitorial instructions adapted to the work and lectures of the grand chapter of California (as adopted 1855) together with the ceremonies for constituting and dedicating chapters and the installation of grand and subordinate officers

by Thomas H Caswell 33* - grand lecturer

Charge
to be read at opening the lodge

Wherefore, brethren, lay aside all malice, and guile, and hypocricies, and envies, and all evil speakings. If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious; to whom coming as unto living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious; ye also, as living stones, be ye built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up sacrifices acceptable to God.
Brethren, this is the will of God, that, with well-doing, ye put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. As free, and not as using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness, but as servants of God. Honor all men; love the Brotherhood; fear God.

Amen

Response: So mote it be.

The R.W. Master, after declaring "a lodge of Mark Master Masons to be duly opened in this place, and in order for business," seats the brethren. He then states the purpose for which the Lodge was convened, naming the brother who is to be advanced, and if there are no objections, he will direct the senior deacon to "take such assistance as may be necessary, and repair to the ante-room; take charge of the brother, properly prepare, and introduce him."

and so on and so on yada yada . . . . prayer, Bible verse, psalm, Bible verse . . . yada yada . . .

Companions: You now behold before you Companion--------- -----------, who has been duly elected to preside over you as your Grand High Priest, . . .

2. Ritual in masonry seems to be aimed at changing the state of being of the initiate brotherhood or to honor God. If not what then is it aimed at? If it is aimed at changing the state of being then what is that state which is being asked for?

Ritual is an expression of one\'s religious identity (for example when a Christian makes the sign of the cross). It is a way of reinforcing one's convictions and controlling one's relationship with the divine. Rituals are used as a way of giving meaning and order to daily life, and to change states of being (for example in ceremonies of initiation, purification or passage).

reply to post by KSigMason


You are nitpicking details based on your regional body of masonry and claiming that the UGLE nor its authority have any bearing on the matter, which is rather absurd. It may have little impact on you in your region however in the land masses surrounding the Grand Orient of Italy the UGLE is of considerable influence and greater authority than your NA grand lodge.

Would masonry hailing from over seas possess a similar disregard for NA lodges, their authoritative bodies and charters?

Your deflection to the details of inter-masonic relations has little importance in the core teachings and beliefs of masonry as a whole and its relation to any accusation or proof of worshiping Lucifer or Satan.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Except I've visited and gained an understanding of Lodges all over the US and in some European countries. I like to travel.

Do you think that the UGLE has some wide reaching authority? Just because the UGLE recognizes a certain Grand Lodge/Orient doesn't mean anyone else does. Just look at the withdrawal of recognition of the GLNF from the American Grand Lodge versus the UGLE.

It may have little impact on you in your region however in the land masses surrounding the Grand Orient of Italy the UGLE is of considerable influence and greater authority than your NA grand lodge.

The UGLE no longer recognizes the GOI. And actually the American York Rite exercises control over the York Rite bodies in Italy.

Would masonry hailing from over seas possess a similar disregard for NA lodges, their authoritative bodies and charters?

Only if someone were to say our Grand Lodge exercised authority over theirs which no Grand Lodge can exercise control over another Grand Lodge.

Your deflection to the details of inter-masonic relations has little importance in the core teachings and beliefs of masonry as a whole and its relation to any accusation or proof of worshiping Lucifer or Satan.

I only responded to your inaccurate assertions.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Do you understand now? There is NO 'devil' ruling over hell.

Really? So who is the person or being refered to and where does this punishment take place when the Catholic Church says "the wicked, a perpetual punishment with the devil" and "will suffer forever the torments of hell where there is no redemption". Maybe they meant Pee Wee Herman is in charge.

Don't pull the 'you don't know anything card' its weak and does not help your argument as it requires the agent opposing you to recognize some mysterious authority given to you which has not been demonstrated nor proofed by any unbiased third party.

The 'mysterious authority' is the membership of each Grand Lodge adhereing to the Landmarks I posted earlier.

Your claims of belief in a supreme deity have no bearing on whether one worships that deity or not. It is not relevant to the discussion of whether masons worship Lucifer or Satan.

Someone else tried this tact already. Masonry proscribes belief in a Supreme Being (monotheism). If you worship something else other than God your are Polytheistic and no longer can be considered a Mason.

Try something new.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
On masonry's use of ritual, ceremonies and the invocation of God during said activities. Ritual involving the invocation of God usually resides in the camp of religion.

The Senate of the United States opens each session with an invocation of Deity. Is that a religious orginization?

Let alone with a worshipful master,,,

Your dopey attempt to make the words 'Wroshipful Master' somehow have a religious conotation is pathetic. If you actually picked up a dictionary you would find that 'worshipful' means 'respected'.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
On masonry's use of ritual, ceremonies and the invocation of God during said activities. Ritual involving the invocation of God usually resides in the camp of religion.

The Senate of the United States opens each session with an invocation of Deity. Is that a religious orginization?

Let alone with a worshipful master,,,

Your dopey attempt to make the words 'Wroshipful Master' somehow have a religious conotation is pathetic. If you actually picked up a dictionary you would find that 'worshipful' means 'respected'.

If you are going to attempt an insult at least spell the word correctly . . . . oh and its connotation with two 'n's. There is a built in spell checker on this site the least you can do is use it.

Second I provided a definition of 'worship' which includes the use as 'worshipful' however that does not address the use the 'grand high priest'. If the US performed ceremonies with a 'grand high priest' or 'worshipful master' presiding over them and claimed they were not religious I would doubt their credibility very much. Even more so would I doubt their claims if the congregation was performing responses at set points in the prayer. All in all know I do not consider them especially religious in comparison to masonry.

I am well aware of the official masonic definition that a religion requires a teaching of salvation. However this does not match the dictionary definitions I have come across;

religion
  Origin
re·li·gion
   [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
noun
1.a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

I want to know why you, meaning your opinion as a mason, believe masonry is not a religion.


Back to the 'devil' ruling over 'hell' perhaps you should realize that God is the supreme deity whom throws all those who die in mortal sin AND the 'devil' (along with this angels) into the 'lake of fire' to be tormented forever and ever. God does the punishing, your definitions completely disregards the supreme authority of God in all affairs. Your interpretation has no basis Biblically. The Bible states that the 'devil' tempts man to sin while man is in the flesh. There is nothing regarding him chewing on your toes for eternity. In fact, had you read the Book of Revelations, you would realize that the 'devil' and his angels receive their punishment alongside the sinners of mankind.

If you can't handle this then go and find a passage giving the 'devil' governorship over 'hell'. What you are likely to find is that the 'devil' has been given authority over THIS world (material Earth) and not any other.


Back your claim of not worshiping or 'wroshiping' if I use your terminology correctly. Did not Solomon know of the supreme deity and authority of God and yet he bowed down to foreign gods after the tempting (some would say nagging) of one of his wives?

Belief does not mean in any way shape or form worship, nor 'wroship'. I provided the definitions earlier of both belief and worship, not 'wroship' though. The concept of lucifer and/or satan worship is that one recognizes they are fallen angels but desires the powers and pleasures afforded by kneeling to them. That can be as simple as merely doing their bidding. There are other sects which practice self worship.

I have read your claims that belief in a supreme deity prevents worship of anything else and completely disagree. You assume worship can only be applied to a deity and yet the definition and your own uses of the term prove that to be incorrect ( see 'wroshipful master').

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

The term "worshipful" is Old English for "one who is respected". It doesn't mean we worship that person with this title. It just means the title they hold is one of respect.

The "Grand High Priest" is the presiding over a Grand Chapter of Royal Arch Masons. A High Priest presides over a Chapter. We use the term "High Priest" because the Royal Arch degrees deal with the Jews return to Jerusalem from Babylonian captivity. In that time the High Priest ruled over the people. We use the title to commemorate the legendary men the Royal Arch is based off of. The High Priest has no priestly or ecclesiastical duties. There is another officer in the Chapter who leads us in prayer.

If the US performed ceremonies with a 'grand high priest' or 'worshipful master' presiding over them and claimed they were not religious I would doubt their credibility very much.

Then you are one to base opinions of inaccurate information and misconceptions.

I want to know why you, meaning your opinion as a mason, believe masonry is not a religion.

Because we have no plan of salvation, we don't seek to convert, and the basic tenets of Freemasonry say we are NOT a religion. We allow religious men to join, but as to what each individual's faith is is up to them.

"Masonry is not a religion. He who makes of it a religious belief, falsifies and denaturalizes it."
- Albert Pike

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


I am sorry to intrude on your conversation here, but in reading your responses, I cannot help but wonder, what motivation do you have for your dislike or hatred of masonry? You seem to argue the points to death, even after they have been explained seven ways to Sunday. Of course this is from a masons point of view. We are private in that we won't come to your door to pester you, we will not beg you to come to a meeting, we won't even try to shake your hand on the street to make you aware of our existence. So knowing that, why bother with us? You are obviously very much in disagreement with what we believe.

I seriously do want to know what drives you.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
All in all know I do not consider them especially religious in comparison to masonry.

No one ever claimed that Masonry did not have a religious aspect, it is not however a religion dispite your butchery of the word 'worshipful'.

I am well aware of the official masonic definition that a religion requires a teaching of salvation.

...

I want to know why you, meaning your opinion as a mason, believe masonry is not a religion.

Who cares what you think the 'official Masonic defintion' of religion happens to be? The Oxford Dictionary defintion is:

noun
[mass noun]
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods

As there is no worship in a Masonic lodge it is not a religion.

Your interpretation has no basis Biblically. The Bible states...

I could care less what the Bible (or your opinion of the Bible) states. The concept was codified in 1213 from a conglomeration of disparate beliefs. Much dogma that the Catholic Church teaches has 'no basis Biblically' yet it is an accepted part of its mythology. The common belief of Lucifer (Satan/The Devil) has been hardcoded into everyone's consciousness, it no longer matters what the New Testament may or may not have implied.

Did not Solomon know of the supreme deity and authority of God and yet he bowed down to foreign gods after the tempting (some would say nagging) of one of his wives?

Solomon is strictly an allegorical character and if there was a historical Solomon he is irrelevant to the lessons of Masonry.

I have read your claims that belief in a supreme deity prevents worship of anything else and completely disagree.

Then explain how you can have a belief in a Supreme Being, worship something else, and still be monotheistic.

This should be interesting.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Freemasonry IS decentralized because every Grand Lodge is independent and sovereign. There is no single central authority over all the Grand Lodges around the world. There are multiple Supreme Councils of the Scottish Rite around the world. The York Rite in America is composed 3 different, separate, independent, and sovereign groups, and outside these groups are splintered with their own leadership and structure.

I'm a little confused with the way you are using the word decentralized to describe regular Freemasonry.

Decentralized authority requires the existence of centralized authority... the de- prefix is the removal from, a reversal, away from, out of, remove, etc.

Do you mean non-centralized?

If every regular lodge answers to a single Grand Lodge, and any lodge (including the Grand Lodge) can be 'kicked out' of regular Freemasonry (no longer recognized as regular Freemasonry) for adopting or not adopting certain rules/principles/practices/landmarks/etc, how exactly does that constitute independence and sovereignty?

If regular Freemasonry is independent and sovereign, what would irregular Freemasonry be considered in those regards when compared to regular Freemasonry?

You cannot be more than 100% independent or sovereign. If regular FM has to follow certain rules without a choice in order to maintain the regular FM status, and irregular FM is not forced by influences, outside of their lodge, to follow any specific rules, regular and irregular cannot be equally independent or sovereign.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Who cares what you think the 'official Masonic defintion' of religion happens to be? The Oxford Dictionary defintion is:

noun
[mass noun]
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods

As there is no worship in a Masonic lodge it is not a religion.


Then explain how you can have a belief in a Supreme Being, worship something else, and still be monotheistic.

This should be interesting.

Let's check out the Oxford definition for worship.

noun

1 [mass noun] the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity: worship of the Mother Goddess ancestor worship
*religious rites or ceremonies, constituting a formal expression of reverence for a deity: the church was opened for public worship
*great admiration or devotion shown towards a person or principle: the worship of celebrity and wealth
*archaic honour given to someone in recognition of their merit.

2 [as title] (His/Your Worship) chiefly British used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, especially a magistrate or mayor:

There is no feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for any deity in any regular Masonic lodge?
There are no rites or ceremonies constituting a formal expression of reverence for any deity in any regular Masonic lodge?

To address your last point: It's ridiculously self-evident that a person can worship anything they want without invoking the belief in the existence of additional, supernatural entities.

What part to the Oxford definition of 'worship' (remember, you said the Oxford dictionary is what matters) does it state or imply that a person can only worship a supernatural deity?

Originally posted by Erbal

If every regular lodge answers to a single Grand Lodge, and any lodge (including the Grand Lodge) can be 'kicked out' of regular Freemasonry (no longer recognized as regular Freemasonry) for adopting or not adopting certain rules/principles/practices/landmarks/etc, how exactly does that constitute independence and sovereignty?

Each State has it's own Grand Lodge and each Grand lodge is sovereign. There is no central governing body over each State although they all recognize the ancient landmarks of the UGLE.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Erbal

If every regular lodge answers to a single Grand Lodge, and any lodge (including the Grand Lodge) can be 'kicked out' of regular Freemasonry (no longer recognized as regular Freemasonry) for adopting or not adopting certain rules/principles/practices/landmarks/etc, how exactly does that constitute independence and sovereignty?

Each State has it's own Grand Lodge and each Grand lodge is sovereign. There is no central governing body over each State although they all recognize the ancient landmarks of the UGLE.

If a Grand Lodge is sovereign and has no form of Masonic authority higher than itself, why in the world is there any disagreement whatsoever amongst Masons regarding the legitimacy of lodges who exercise sovereignty nonuniformly with the UGLE?

If every regular lodge only recognizes who the UGLE recognizes, wouldn't that be a form of centralized power? If you do not follow the UGLE, you cannot be a regular lodge, correct?