Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
You are NOT going to find conclusive proof in his eyes of Lucifer worship.

Maybe a Lucifer-believer such as yourself can take a shot at it, you seem to know so much about him.

This has been a wild thread! After 30 pages, I have had a lot of things to consider, and I think Augustus is correct when he says ( and please correct me if i have misunderstood, 30 pages in and its kinda hard to keep up) that a belief in Satan as a supreme being isn't possible because according to Christians Satan is a lesser being than god.

My question is, what about luciferians? Those people who do believe in god and lucifer, but proclaim that like many Gnostics do, that the Christian god is a fake, an imposter(demiurge) and the true supreme god ( divine light) is indeed lucifer?

If they believe that lucifer is the ultimate source of life, light and divine power, then that would make lucifer, according to them, the supreme being.

So could those luciferians be accepted into masonry?

Originally posted by Mijamija
My question is, what about luciferians? Those people who do believe in god and lucifer, but proclaim that like many Gnostics do, that the Christian god is a fake, an imposter(demiurge) and the true supreme god ( divine light) is indeed lucifer?

My opinion, based on the historical Lucifer, is that he is also a Christian creation and would therefore also owe his origins to God.

If they believe that lucifer is the ultimate source of life, light and divine power, then that would make lucifer, according to them, the supreme being.

So could those luciferians be accepted into masonry?

Historical Luciferians do not recognize Lucifer as a Supreme Being but as an unjustly accused Angel.

Lucifer is seen as the Lightbearer; the bringer of knowledge and truth. As a being of both fire (light) and air (wisdom), he is characterized by sunlight, wind, and fire. However, in acknowledgement of the dual nature of widom/knowledge, and the fact that it can be used for both “good” and “ill,” he is also represented, to a lesser degree, by the traditional “darkness” associated with Satanism. These qualities are viewed not only as admirable, but as highly desireable to achieve in one’s life. In effect, one wishes to “become Lucifer.”

This does not, however, entail worshipping the figure or doing obscure demonologic rituals to empower oneself. It is more accurately described as a conscious effort of constant self-improvement through learning and effort. Source

Originally posted by Mijamija
If they believe that lucifer is the ultimate source of life, light and divine power, then that would make lucifer, according to them, the supreme being.

So could those luciferians be accepted into masonry?

If that was their belief, they would have no problem joining. Nobody's going to ask them what God's name is. (Not like any mortal should presume to know it anyway...)

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
You are NOT going to find conclusive proof in his eyes of Lucifer worship.

Maybe a Lucifer-believer such as yourself can take a shot at it, you seem to know so much about him.

I assume you mean belief in the existence of and not insinuating the worship or deference to said being?

One can believe in a supreme being and not worship said being. It may invite arguments of an error in logic as to why one would worship anything less than the supreme, said argument however leaves out several variables found in life on Earth.

If one takes a Biblical perspective then they would identify the angel of the abyss (daath/knowledge) as the ruler of this world possessing the ability to endow those who kneel before them all the riches of the Earth. One can have knowledge of the supreme and still stray from the path by pursuing the temptations of the flesh. Modern day satanists often claim the true path of satanism is self worship in attempts to deify one's self rather than merely worshiping an op-poser to God.

I am well aware of your belief in the concept that there is no such thing as the devil/satan/lucifer aside from some scare tactic manifested by the religious oligarchy of the period.

Personally I don't not think the average mason or even the high orders worship lucifer. Largely masonry embodies much of the teachings of the old mystery schools, Solomon's Temple was built by an initiate of the mysteries, and through various historical circumstances such associations have become taboo.

I do believe that masonry has many secret societies (perhaps associations is a more accurate term) within its walls. Intelligence agencies were known to have infiltrated their ranks dating back to the revolutionary war and provided (perhaps unwittingly) hidden channels in the shadows to operate. Intelligence agency symbolism of CIA and MI5 is clearly greatly influenced by esoteric orders which associate with masonry and many leaders of said agency are initiates of orders like the skull and bones which many observe to have a heavy usage of dark themes.

There are many accounts of masons claiming initiations into higher orders (templar) where most if not all the participants were masked and so one did not in fact know everyone involved in the ritual. It is easy to extrapolate from this that there is the potential for similar orders to exist today and those secret members are seated in authority to manipulate larger masses among the brotherhood without the profane being aware of authority's true intentions. I am not claiming this indeed what is occurring just pointing out that the practices of masonry facilitate this form of manipulation.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
I assume you mean belief in the existence of and not insinuating the worship or deference to said being?

Precisely.

One can believe in a supreme being and not worship said being. It may invite arguments of an error in logic as to why one would worship anything less than the supreme, said argument however leaves out several variables found in life on Earth.

Can you expound on this statement, what variables?

If one takes a Biblical perspective then they would identify the angel of the abyss (daath/knowledge) as the ruler of this world possessing the ability to endow those who kneel before them all the riches of the Earth.

That is not the Biblical perspective as the concept of Satan the fallen angel ruling in Hell was not codified until 1213. This has been heavily discussed in this thread with linked references to support the point.

I am well aware of your belief in the concept that there is no such thing as the devil/satan/lucifer aside from some scare tactic manifested by the religious oligarchy of the period.

Do you disagree?

Personally I don't not think the average mason or even the high orders worship lucifer. Largely masonry embodies much of the teachings of the old mystery schools, Solomon's Temple was built by an initiate of the mysteries, and through various historical circumstances such associations have become taboo.

I still find it amazng that after all your participation in this forum you still ascribe to the whole 'higher orders' bogey.

I do believe that masonry has many secret societies (perhaps associations is a more accurate term) within its walls.

Such as?

Intelligence agency symbolism of CIA and MI5 is clearly greatly influenced by esoteric orders which associate with masonry and many leaders of said agency are initiates of orders like the skull and bones which many observe to have a heavy usage of dark themes.

I would ask you for examples but that is not the topic of this thread. Perhaps you can start another detailing this alleged similarity of symbolism.

There are many accounts of masons claiming initiations into higher orders (templar) where most if not all the participants were masked and so one did not in fact know everyone involved in the ritual.

The requirement for joining the Masonic Knights Templars is that of being Christian, perhaps someone like Ksig can confirm or refute the hoodwinking aspect for you.

It is easy to extrapolate from this that there is the potential for similar orders to exist today and those secret members are seated in authority to manipulate larger masses among the brotherhood without the profane being aware of authority's true intentions. I am not claiming this indeed what is occurring just pointing out that the practices of masonry facilitate this form of manipulation.

How can it facilitate anything such as you claimed when the elected leadership changes on a yearly basis and the Grand Master typically does not repeat his position?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I never mentioned hell did I?

I said the Earth is the location where the fallen angel was said to have been cast down. The scriptures note that there is no lake of fire (aka hell) until after the return of Christ and the judgement.

Earlier texts such as the Book of Enoch identify and clarify the concept of fallen angels, are cited by the prophets of the Bible, and predates any 1213 common era text by thousands of years.

Please do not stoop so low as to claim the apocryphal text nonsense as you already have identified the said pontiffs as myth makers.

Also my references to the knights templar was from an era prior to the official sanctioning of such a body.


And no I do not agree.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
I never mentioned hell did I?

I said the Earth is the location where the fallen angel was said to have been cast down. The scriptures note that there is no lake of fire (aka hell) until after the return of Christ and the judgement.

You personal perception of Hell and Satan is not relevant to what the Christian religion as a whole perceives the mythology of Satan and his domain.

Earlier texts such as the Book of Enoch identify and clarify the concept of fallen angels, are cited by the prophets of the Bible, and predates any 1213 common era text by thousands of years.

The Book of Enoch was never part of Jewish Canon and the Old Testament. It is only recognized by a small portion of modern Christians as Canon. The mythology of Semjâzâ does not have him rebelling against God so that he may rule his own domain but instead Semjâzâ and his followers goal is to breed with human women.

Additionaly, Semjâzâ and his host were apprehended and imprisoned by Gabriel and were, according to the myth held 'fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated', so it appears they have been duly imprisoned since that time. Satan, according to Christian mythology, roams the Earth at will, tempting humans in a struggle for their eternal souls.

Please do not stoop so low as to claim the apocryphal text nonsense as you already have identified the said pontiffs as myth makers.

It is not just me claiming the Book of Enoch is apocryphal, only a small portion of Christians, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and Eritrean Orthodox Church, consider it as canon. Are you a member of either one of these groups?

Also my references to the knights templar was from an era prior to the official sanctioning of such a body.

There is zero evidence of any group that has direct lienage to the historical Knights Templar, let alone the Masons.

And no I do not agree

Not agree on what?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Please provide your sources for your claim that the whole of Christianity believes in the concept that there is a devil character ruling over hell currently.


If you have already posted that should make it far easier on your part to provide the evidence, however I am not about to wade through dozens of pages of this thread as the vast majority of your posts reek of arrogance which I am not about to subject myself to.

en.wikipedia.org...

These three terms have different meanings and must be recognized.

Hades has similarities to the Old Testament term, Sheol as "the place of the dead". Thus, it is used in reference to both the righteous and the wicked, since both wind up there eventually.[26]
Gehenna refers to the "Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. It was a place where people burned their garbage and thus there was always a fire burning there. Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without hope of salvation (such as people who committed suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.[27] Gehenna is used in the New Testament as a metaphor for the final place of punishment for the wicked after the resurrection.[28]
Tartaro (the verb "throw to Tartarus") occurs only once in the New Testament in II Peter 2:4, where it is parallel to the use of the noun form in 1 Enoch as the place of incarceration of 200 fallen angels. It mentions nothing about human souls being sent there in the afterlife.

The Last Judgement, Hell, circa 1431, by Fra Angelico

The Roman Catholic Church defines Hell as "a state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed." One finds themselves in Hell as the result of dying in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love, becoming eternally separated from Him by one's own free choice[29] immediately after death.[30] The Roman Catholic Church, many other Christian churches, such as the Baptists and Episcopalians, and some Greek Orthodox churches,[31] Hell is taught as the final destiny of those who have not been found worthy after the general resurrection and last judgment,[32][33][34] where they will be eternally punished for sin and permanently separated from God. The nature of this judgment is inconsistent with many Protestant churches teaching the saving comes from accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, while the Greek Orthodox and Catholic Churches teach that the judgment hinges on both faith and works. However, many Liberal Christians throughout Liberal Protestant, Anglican and some Orthodox churches believe in Universal Reconciliation (see below) even though it might contradict more evangelical views in their denomination.[35]

Some modern Christian theologians subscribe to the doctrines of Conditional Immortality. Conditional Immortality is the belief that the soul dies with the body and does not live again until the resurrection. This is the view held by a few Christian sects such as the Living Church of God, The Church of God International, and Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Annihilationism is the belief that the soul is mortal unless granted eternal life, making it possible to be destroyed in Hell.

Jehovah's Witnesses hold that the soul ceases to exist when the person dies[36] and therefore that Hell (Sheol or Hades) is a state of non-existence.[36] In their theology, Gehenna differs from Sheol or Hades in that it holds no hope of a resurrection.[36] Tatarus is held to be the metaphorical state of debasement of the fallen angels between the time of their moral fall (Genesis chapter 6) until their post-millennial destruction along with Satan (Revelation chapter 20).[37]

Universal Reconciliation is the belief that all human souls (even demons and fallen angels) will be eventually reconciled with God and admitted to Heaven. This view is held by some Unitarian-Universalists.[38][39][40]

According to Emanuel Swedenborg’s Second Coming Christian revelation, hell exists because evil people want it.[41] They, not God, introduced evil to the human race.[42]

This is wiki but it does point out that nothing goes to hell until AFTER the resurrection.

It really seems to be YOUR perception of hell rather than the body of Christianity.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Please provide your sources for your claim that the whole of Christianity believes in the concept that there is a devil character ruling over hell currently.

Roman Catholics account for 53% of the world's 2.2 billion Christians while the Latin Church alone is 1.1 billion, Potestants account for another 700 million. Both of these branches of Christianity have, for the most part, a belief in Satan.

However, many Liberal Christians throughout Liberal Protestant, Anglican and some Orthodox churches believe in Universal Reconciliation (see below) even though it might contradict more evangelical views in their denomination.

The Anglican church amounts to 85 million, less than 5% of the worlds total. Even if I were generous and and said the other pushed the total to 200 million that would still be less than 10% and would not represent the bulk of Christians in the world.

This is the view held by a few Christian sects such as the Living Church of God, The Church of God International, and Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Irrelevant Christian sects do not represent the whole.

Jehovahs Witnesses...

...account for a paltry 7.65 million.

It really seems to be YOUR perception of hell rather than the body of Christianity.

No, it seems to be your perception of Christianity is completely at odds with the majority of the remainder of the world's Christians which have a dogmatic belief in Hell and the Devil.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Don't try to change what you were arguing.

Your claim was of a being ruling over hell currently not that belief in such a being exists. You were wrong.

I merely showed that most believe by in large there is no hell until after the general resurrection which counters your claim of satan ruling over hell at this very moment. This is a simple problem where you misinterpreted the order of operations, similar to high school algebra.

Also there are references to fallen angels prior to 1213 such as the bene elohim and the watchers of the book of enoch. So to claim that the entire idea was simply made up is absurd. I agree the interpretation may have been skewed from its origins though.

Or you could provide all the details surrounding the book of revelations which reveal its origins to have come from after the actions of 1213 as the text makes some very clear references.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Don't try to change what you were arguing.

Your claim was of a being ruling over hell currently not that belief in such a being exists. You were wrong.

Which is the position of the Roman Catholic Church which accounts for the majority of the world's Christians. Please provide evidence that the Roman Catholic Church does not believe that Satan rules in Hell.

I merely showed that most believe by in large there is no hell until after the general resurrection which counters your claim of satan ruling over hell at this very moment. This is a simple problem where you misinterpreted the order of operations, similar to high school algebra.

Incorrect, the concept of Satan ruling in Hell has been codified Christian belief since the Fourth Lateran Council of 1213. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

Also there are references to fallen angels prior to 1213...

I never argued that there was not. I have repeatedly pointed out that the dogma surrounding this myth was codified in 1213.

Or you could provide all the details surrounding the book of revelations which reveal its origins to have come from after the actions of 1213 as the text makes some very clear references.

Huh? The origins of Revelations came after 1213? What are you even trying to convey with that sentence?

Originally posted by shamanix2012
I won't pretend to know everything (even though I do... lol jk) but breaking kittens knecks and placing them around children who are sat in the middle of a pentagram lit with candles sure does not seem like the work of holy men. Every masonic family might not do this type of thing, but the girl I met sure had it done to her in her childhood and it bred nothing but darkness in her heart, cutting her off from the light. Oh I forgot to mention the molestation she talked about as well, I'm sure they were worshipping Jesus lol.

Heh. What?

In all my years of Masonry, we have never done this and I belong to lodges full of rednecks at that! Sounds like something more of the Gathering of the Juggolos would do, lol.

No, there are no killings in Masonry and we are not reptile aliens (but that would be awesome if we were!)...

Our biggest secret is that we love to eat together, that is the truth, too! I remember one day while attending lodge, the secretary came out and said dinner had been cancelled due to the kitchen having issues, a lot of those old timer brothers got up and left, LOL!!! I think lodge ended up happening in the local McDonald's that day >_

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Your claim was of a being ruling over hell currently not that belief in such a being exists. You were wrong.

Other then your opinion please post some evidence that the majority of the world's Catholics do not believe in Satan or Hell. This is a codified Church doctrine which certain sacrements make mention of.

I merely showed that most believe by in large there is no hell...

You showed nothing. You cited no sources that disputed the fact that Roman Catholocism codified its belief of Satan and his mythology in 1213.

Also there are references to fallen angels prior to 1213 such as the bene elohim and the watchers of the book of enoch. So to claim that the entire idea was simply made up is absurd.

Again, since you seem to be ignoring it, I never said the concept was made up prior to 1213, only codified in 1213. Do you understand the difference?

Or you could provide all the details surrounding the book of revelations which reveal its origins to have come from after the actions of 1213 as the text makes some very clear references.

I could care less about the Book of Revelations as I never mentioned it nor does it factor into my arguement.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


I am saying your location, in time, of 'hell' is not supported by the Bible and the teachings of the churches. The Bible states that nothing is in 'hell' until after the final judgement, which comes after the general resurrection.

I am not arguing the concept of particular judgement which denotes a judgement immediately upon death, however the lake of fire is a judgement reserved until after the final judgement.

Particular Judgement
www.newadvent.org...

Prompt fulfilment of sentence

The prompt fulfilment of the sentence is part of the dogma of particular judgment, but until the question was settled by the decision of Benedict XII, in 1332, there was much uncertainty regarding the fate of the departed in the period between death and the general resurrection. There was never any doubt that the penalty of loss (poena damni), the temporal or eternal forfeiture of the joys of Heaven, began from the moment of death. Likewise it was admitted from the earliest times that the punishment following death included other sufferings (poena sensus) than the penalty of loss (Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 5). But whether the torment of fire was to be included among these sufferings, or whether it began only after the final judgment, was a question that gave rise to many divergent opinions. It was a common belief among the early Fathers that the devils will not suffer from the flames of hell until the end of the world. Regarding the reprobate souls there was a similar belief. Some of the Fathers contended that these souls do not suffer the torment of fire until reunited with their bodies in the resurrection, while others hesitated (cf. Tert., "De Test. an.", iv). Many, on the contrary, clearly taught that the punishment of hell fire followed speedily upon the particular judgment (Hilary, In Ps. cxxxviii, 22). This is evident from the words of Gregory the Great: "just as happiness rejoices the elect, so it must be believed that from the day of their death fire burns the reprobate" (Dial., IV, 28). Early Christian writers also refer to a purgatorial fire in which souls not perfectly just are purified after death.

General Resurrection is associated with the end times (aka revelations and the apocalypse).

New Testament

The resurrection of the dead was expressly taught by Christ (John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; 11:25; Luke 14:14) and defended against the unbelief of the Sadducees, whom He charged with ignorance of the power of God and of the Scriptures (Matthew 22:29; Luke 20:37). St. Paul places the general resurrection on the same level of certainty with that of Christ's Resurrection: "If Christ be preached, that he rose again from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen again. And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain" (1 Corinthians 15:12 sqq.). The Apostle preached the resurrection of the dead as one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity, at Athens, for instance (Acts 17:18, 31, 32), at Jerusalem (xxiii, 6), before Felix (xxiv, 15), before Agrippa (xxvi, 8). He insists on the same doctrine in his Epistles (Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 15:12 sqq.; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 5:1 sqq.; Philippians 3:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:12-16; 2 Timothy 2:11; Hebrews 6:2), and in this he agrees with the Apocalypse (xx, 12 sqq.).

Do you see the difference between the two now?

Satan
www.newadvent.org...

Devil
(Greek diabolos; Latin diabolus).

The name commonly given to the fallen angels, who are also known as demons (see DEMONOLOGY). With the article (ho) it denotes Lucifer, their chief, as in Matthew 25:41, "the Devil and his angels".

It may be said of this name, as St. Gregory says of the word angel, "nomen est officii, non naturæ"--the designation of an office, not of a nature. For the Greek word (from diaballein, "to traduce") means a slanderer, or accuser, and in this sense it is applied to him of whom it is written "the accuser [ho kategoros] of our brethren is cast forth, who accused them before our God day and night" (Apocalypse 12:10). It thus answers to the Hebrew name Satan which signifies an adversary, or an accuser.

Mention is made of the Devil in many passages of the Old and New Testaments, but there is no full account given in any one place, and the Scripture teaching on this topic can only be ascertained by combining a number of scattered notices from Genesis to Apocalypse, and reading them in the light of patristic and theological tradition. The authoritative teaching of the Church on this topic is set forth in the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council (cap. i, "Firmiter credimus")

See Book of Revelations for apocalypse . . . . . . . .

reply to post by startledcrow

I didn't realize this on the other thread, but welcome aboard.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
I am saying your location, in time, of 'hell' is not supported by the Bible and the teachings of the churches.

Who cares? Not all Christian dogma and mythology are a product of the Bible. Organized religion is a creation of men and will therefore bear the residue of the influence of men, as evidenced by the Fourth Lateran Council of 1213 in which Hell, The Devil and Demons were codified into organized Christian beliefs.

From your own source:

The authoritative teaching of the Church on this topic is set forth in the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council (cap. i, "Firmiter credimus")

I am not particularly concerned with sub-cultic beliefs, that arose centuries after the Council, which you then try to use as refutation of historical Christian mythology.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Incorrect, the concept of Satan ruling in Hell has been codified Christian belief since the Fourth Lateran Council of 1213. Please provide evidence to the contrary.

False, the entire concept you present of both the 'devil' (ruling in hell) and 'hell' (complete separation from God/ lake of fire) do not even follow the Roman Catholic definitions or codices.

You are running your mouth trying to use the Fourth Lateran Council as a cure all when you don't even seem to understand its contents.

The Roman Catholics do not represent the whole of Christian beliefs, they may posses the largest body of followers but this is not an election so 53% does not win anything. Even if it did, you misrepresent the teachings of said body which would not support your argument anyways as there is much evidence of belief in the 'devil' (and his fallen angels) far before 1213.


Now that that is cleared up perhaps you can clear something up for me without using the oh so cliche masonic retort of 'that is one mason's opinion'. On secret orders or infiltrations into the masonic brotherhood, you merely mocked it in earlier sessions however there is a body of evidence to support it. Having read this myself along with confirmation in the writings of George Washington himself of infiltration into the masonic lodges I find it hard to believe that masonry does not have hidden orders within itself which could manipulate the exterior from an inner core.

Proofs of a Conspiracy Against All the Religions and Governments of Europe Carried on in the Secret Meetings of Freemasons, Illuminati and Reading Societies
www.amazon.com...

About the Author
John Robison (1739–1805) was a Scottish physicist and mathematician. He was a professor of philosophy at the University of Edinburgh. A member of the Edinburgh Philosophical Society when it received its royal warrant, he was appointed as the first General Secretary to the Royal Society of Edinburgh. Robison invented the siren and also worked with James Watt on an early steam car. Following the French Revolution, Robison became disenchanted with elements of the Enlightenment. He authored Proofs of a Conspiracy in 1797—a polemic accusing Freemasonry of being infiltrated by Weishaupt's Order of the Illuminati. Robison and French priest Abbé Barruel independently developed similar views that the Illuminati had infiltrated Continental Freemasonry, leading to the excesses of the French Revolution. In 1798, the Reverend G. W. Snyder sent Robison's book to George Washington for his thoughts on the subject in which he replied to him in his Letter to the Reverend G. W. Snyder (24 October 1798).

The P2 lodge scandal
www.masonicinfo.com...
I understand it was closed by the official body of masonry in the region yet its members continued on and provides evidence that those involved in masonry, even the masters of their lodges, are not the good men they pretend to be.

Gelli, however, kept the name of P. 2. alive and his office gathered lists of members who, of course at that time, were no longer regular Freemasons.

I suppose you could include its regular members in there as well.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

Robison proved nothing and I don't know why he became so bitter against an organization he belonged to himself. Washington never spoke against Freemasonry, only against the Illuminati which his information came from Robison who was obviously against them.

What exactly was the Bavarian Illuminati espousing that made them evil?

Having read this myself along with confirmation in the writings of George Washington himself of infiltration into the masonic lodges I find it hard to believe that masonry does not have hidden orders within itself which could manipulate the exterior from an inner core.

Except how Freemasonry is structured and operates an "inner core" couldn't possibly pull strings from behind the scenes. Freemasonry is decentralized and there are far too many players and variables.

Propaganda Due lost its charter from the Grand Orient of Italy in the late 70s (1976 I think) and operated for about 8-years when their infamous scandal broke out. The Grand Orient of Italy didn't receive recognition until the early 90s (1992 I think) so P2 is the worst example of what Masonry is about and is the greatest example of uber clandestine groups abusing the name "Freemasonry" with their insidious activities.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

 

Robison proved nothing and I don't know why he became so bitter against an organization he belonged to himself. Washington never spoke against Freemasonry, only against the Illuminati which his information came from Robison who was obviously against them.

What exactly was the Bavarian Illuminati espousing that made them evil?

Having read this myself along with confirmation in the writings of George Washington himself of infiltration into the masonic lodges I find it hard to believe that masonry does not have hidden orders within itself which could manipulate the exterior from an inner core.

Except how Freemasonry is structured and operates an "inner core" couldn't possibly pull strings from behind the scenes. Freemasonry is decentralized and there are far too many players and variables.

Propaganda Due lost its charter from the Grand Orient of Italy in the late 70s (1976 I think) and operated for about 8-years when their infamous scandal broke out. The Grand Orient of Italy didn't receive recognition until the early 90s (1992 I think) so P2 is the worst example of what Masonry is about and is the greatest example of uber clandestine groups abusing the name "Freemasonry" with their insidious activities.

The Grand Orient lodge of Italy was recognized in 1972 by the United Grand Lodge of England, that is, prior to the exposure of its activities.

UGLE (United Grand Lodge of England)
en.wikipedia.org...

Grand Orient of Italy
en.wikipedia.org...

In 1972 it was recognised as regular by the United Grand Lodge of England (UGLE).[7] This is no longer the case, and the Regular Grand Lodge of Italy is the grand lodge now recognized by the UGLE.[8] Most North American grand lodges, on the other hand, still recognize the Grand Orient.

Propaganda Due, the lodge that investigative journalists have identified as being implicated in the murder of Roberto Calvi, was originally chartered by the Grand Orient. The Grand Orient revoked its charter in 1974.

I never claimed that Washington spoke against Freemasonry, I was providing his response as evidence to the argument that Freemasonry has in the past been infiltrated and used as a front for other activities. Washington acknowledged this in his letter of correspondence.

Those governments that oppress Freemasonry have in common the accusation of political organization within its ranks, which I (personal opinion) find to be no crime in/and of itself, which is corroborated with the actions of lodges such as that found in the Green Dragon Tavern prior to the revolutionary war of America (www.masonicworld.com... ).

Claims that freemasonry is decentralized are neutered by the common defensive tactic practiced by masons that masonic lodges are not chartered/recognized by a Grand Lodge. The discussion usually denigrates into this lodge or that was chartered by another lodge that is not recognized by my lodge or some other lodge which is then passed off onto the constitutions of freemasonry which is used to show the lodge in question was not following the agreed upon laws of some grand lodge, of course none of this would have come to light unless said lodge was exposed in its disregard for the laws and then has its charter removed. All of this only shows that due to the nature of the society actions and associations can be kept silent until their actions finally catch up with them which only supports the claim that masonry is a able vessel to be used by secretive societies within its walls, or in the shadows of said walls for that matter.

Example of chartered lodge not following constitutions having charter revoked upon publication (to the public) of its violations;
Masonic Lodge Is Suspended After Shooting
www.nytimes.com...

William James, a new arrival to the lodge, South Side 493 Masons of Patchogue, was killed Monday as he was being initiated into a social club connected to the Masons but not officially part of the organization.

Though Masonic initiations are often darkly theatrical, Mr. Fitje and other Masonic experts have said that pulling a gun on someone has never been part of any sanctioned ritual.