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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Are you referring to the quote by Saurus on page 26 of this thread? If not, I have no idea what you are talking about.
It wasn't a linked quote, it was simply a bare quote without a link. It did cite an unlinked source that I am unable to verify.
You obvioualy put very little effort into looking:
The following Landmarks are common to all officially adopted lists:
(1) Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is
required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his
own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions.
This is the basis of our universality. LINK
Read that a few times and tell me that I am wrong.
One God. Singular. Not many gods and various other things to worship, one God.
False, that's left open to interpretation and you cannot tell me all interpretations are in unison, especially when you avoid asking questions to check what each interpretation actually consists of.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Dude, professing faith in God can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE.
Professing monotheism requires a belief in God but professing a belief in God does NOT require monotheism at all.
Being that the requirement is monotheistic the profession of faith is also monotheistic.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
I asked why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist... and you respond by asking how a belief in multiple gods makes you monotheistic?
What are you talking about, are you confused?
No, you are the one who is confusing yourself. You blather on about how someone can be monotheistic and worship other beings which makes zero sense. You either believe in a Supreme Being or you do not. When you start worshipping anything but that Supreme Being you are polytheistic.
Believing in multiple gods is monotheism?????????????
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalYou clearly missed the point... those are examples of religious views which can believe in a Supreme Being while still believing in the existence of other supernatural deities.
Have you forgotten that you tried to claim a belief in a Supreme Being means you cannot be anything but monotheistic? I proved that to be untrue.
Huh? The defintions themselves disprove this:
Henotheism is closely related to the theistic concept of monolatry, which is also the worship of one god among many. The primary difference between the two is that henotheism is the worship of one god, not precluding the existence of others who may also be worthy of praise, while Monolatry is the worship of one god who alone is worthy of worship, though other gods are known to exist.
Read that s-l-o-w-l-y, neither of those are truly monotheistic in nature.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
In regards questions, once again, because you seem to be ignoring this, the questionaire that each candidate is given prior to petitioning spells out what Supreme Being means. If they need further clarification they can ask their investigating committee. It is quite simple, belief in a Supreme Being means belief in God, one singular God.
Originally posted by Erbal
I have never once claimed a monotheist believes in more than 1 god... mono means 1.
I said someone can believe in more than 1 deity while believing 1 of those multiple deities is supreme.
Originally posted by whenandwhere
reply to post by Erbal
From the Grand Lodge of Ky Constitution ...
"The Supreme Being. Masons believe that there is one God ......."
This is also on our petition and on our Investigation questionnaire . No ambiguity there , straight and to the point . If you want to argue that , then you are merely trolling . It is made perfectly clear to our petitioners that they must believe in ONE God .edit on 14-10-2012 by whenandwhere because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by madenusa
"Novus Ordo Seclorum"? What does that mean?
It means a New World
without God. ("New Secular World")
Charles Thomson, who designed the final version of the Great Seal and added that latin text was not a Freemason.
Freemasons put that statement on the back of every Federal Reserve Note!
Originally posted by Erbal
I took a look at your link and I noticed a couple things missing...
I see no rules that a member must be a monotheist. I do see a rule that a member cannot be atheist.
I see no rules that a member cannot tell a lie. I do see rules that a member can't gamble, can't use abusive language, can't use profanity, can't slander... no rules about being intentionally misleading (lying).
Now, if you are suggesting the Masonic landmark you quoted is a binding and ENFORCED rule throughout regular Freemasonry, surely you have SOME evidence to support that assertion.
The choice is yours: spend at least a minimal effort to prove yourself correct, or spend zero effort to prove yourself correct and pretend you proved yourself correct.
Originally posted by Erbal
False, that's left open to interpretation and you cannot tell me all interpretations are in unison, especially when you avoid asking questions to check what each interpretation actually consists of.
I have never once claimed a monotheist believes in more than 1 god... mono means 1.
I said someone can believe in more than 1 deity while believing 1 of those multiple deities is supreme.
If you interpret Supreme Being as the existence of only 1 supernatural deity...
Believing in multiple gods is monotheism?????????????
Mono = 1 Theism = belief in the EXISTENCE of a God or Gods
Monotheism = belief in the EXISTENCE of only 1 God (If you believe monotheism means worship of only 1 God, you are in a direct disagreement with the generally accepted definition of the word monotheism and theism)
Definition of MONOTHEISM
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God
Merriam-Webster's
If you have a doctrine or belief that there is but one God how can you possibly worship anything esle and still be monotheistic?
So are you willing to provide relevant examples of the information given to candidates to remove ambiguity from the terms related to the god requirement? Or do you refuse to support your assertions with facts?
Yesterday we had our state-wide open house and had a large amount of interested persons visit our lodge. Anyone who asked for a petition had someone explain the requirements. There were several questions asked about our belief requirements and it was explained that a Supreme Being means belief in ONE God. No one left confused or uncertain on any of the requirements for joining.
Originally posted by JoshNorton
Originally posted by madenusa
"Novus Ordo Seclorum"? What does that mean?
It means a New World
without God. ("New Secular World")
No. It does not.
Charles Thomson, who designed the final version of the Great Seal and added that latin text was not a Freemason.
Freemasons put that statement on the back of every Federal Reserve Note!edit on 2012.10.14 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by madenusa
what year was their pyramid logo
put on the USA's money?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by madenusa
what year was their pyramid logo
put on the USA's money?
What does this have to do with my Original Post? Stop trying to derail my thread with your irrelevant nonsense.
Originally posted by network dude
Originally posted by Erbal
I have never once claimed a monotheist believes in more than 1 god... mono means 1.
I said someone can believe in more than 1 deity while believing 1 of those multiple deities is supreme.
Since this seems to be the main point of your argument, I would at least like to understand it. Could you give me an example of someone who believes in only one God, yet worships lesser beings?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
I took a look at your link and I noticed a couple things missing...
I see no rules that a member must be a monotheist. I do see a rule that a member cannot be atheist.
The Ancient Landmarks are rules.
I see no rules that a member cannot tell a lie. I do see rules that a member can't gamble, can't use abusive language, can't use profanity, can't slander... no rules about being intentionally misleading (lying).
This is covered in the obligations.
Now, if you are suggesting the Masonic landmark you quoted is a binding and ENFORCED rule throughout regular Freemasonry, surely you have SOME evidence to support that assertion.
As I said, the Landmarks are rules. All Masons must adhere to them under threat of expulsion.
The choice is yours: spend at least a minimal effort to prove yourself correct, or spend zero effort to prove yourself correct and pretend you proved yourself correct.
I think this would apply to you, who did not even bother to determine what the Landmarks are, and their menaing to Masons, prior to posting.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
False, that's left open to interpretation and you cannot tell me all interpretations are in unison, especially when you avoid asking questions to check what each interpretation actually consists of.
Belief in a Supreme Being implicitly implies monotheisim. You seem to have a hard time grasping that and instead try to cite other types of beliefs which you falsly construed as monotheisitic in nature.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
I have never once claimed a monotheist believes in more than 1 god... mono means 1.
I said someone can believe in more than 1 deity while believing 1 of those multiple deities is supreme.
Then this is not monotheisim which is a requirement for joining.
Clearly you do. Do you have any evidence that regular Freemasonry makes it crystal clear that they interpret Supreme Being as the existence of only 1 supernatural deity BEFORE they ask a candidate if they believe in a Supreme Being? 'Implicitly implying' such a thing is completely unsatisfactory in the informed consent department.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by ErbalIf you interpret Supreme Being as the existence of only 1 supernatural deity...
I do.
Semantics is the meaning and interpretation of WORDS USED IN LANGUAGE.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Believing in multiple gods is monotheism?????????????
Mono = 1 Theism = belief in the EXISTENCE of a God or Gods
Monotheism = belief in the EXISTENCE of only 1 God (If you believe monotheism means worship of only 1 God, you are in a direct disagreement with the generally accepted definition of the word monotheism and theism)
What? You seem to be playing a strange game of semmantics:
Definition of MONOTHEISM
: the doctrine or belief that there is but one God
Merriam-Webster's
If you have a doctrine or belief that there is but one God how can you possibly worship anything esle and still be monotheistic?
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
So are you willing to provide relevant examples of the information given to candidates to remove ambiguity from the terms related to the god requirement? Or do you refuse to support your assertions with facts?
Yesterday we had our state-wide open house and had a large amount of interested persons visit our lodge. Anyone who asked for a petition had someone explain the requirements. There were several questions asked about our belief requirements and it was explained that a Supreme Being means belief in ONE God. No one left confused or uncertain on any of the requirements for joining.
Originally posted by Erbal
Hey man, you are free to claim whatever you want. I simply asked for a minimal amount of proof that the landmark for monotheism is a BINDING AND ENFORCED RULE THROUGHOUT REGULAR MASONRY.
My idea of an Ancient Landmark is a rule or usage of the Premier Grand Lodge which can not be abrogated, without cutting off the offending Body from the Universal Craft." (W. J. Hughan.) Source
Originally posted by Erbal
Implicitly means implied, so it sounds strange to hear implicitly implied and I'm not sure if I should assume you made an error or assume you intended to write that.
Supreme Being is defined as God, according to the Merrian-Webster's dictionary. Monotheists obviously interpret God as you do but that doesn't mean it's the one and only interpretation for all beliefs.
The other types of beliefs I listed, which you seem to be having an incredibly difficult time comprehending, was for the explicit (opposite of implicit) purpose of showing religious views which are NOT monotheistic in nature that also believe in a God superior/supreme to other Gods they believe in.
I explicitly stated it's not monotheistic... I was giving examples of a belief system that believes in a Supreme God while also believing in MORE THAN ONE God.
I'm not really concerned which unenforced and non-binding rules and requirements... show me that regular Freemasonry will deny membership to any otherwise suitable candidate simply because they believe in the existence of more than one deity.
Clearly you do. Do you have any evidence that regular Freemasonry makes it crystal clear that they interpret Supreme Being as the existence of only 1 supernatural deity BEFORE they ask a candidate if they believe in a Supreme Being? 'Implicitly implying' such a thing is completely unsatisfactory in the informed consent department.
I feel a monotheist is free to worship whatever they like but they cease to be a monotheist the moment they believe in the existence of a 2nd deity. So really, it boils down to whether or not a person is a genuine monotheist.
I simply do not see any evidence that regular Freemason is exclusive to monotheists.
So no, you are not willing to provide examples of the actual information given to candidates which removes ambiguity?
This would be a lot easier if you did produce some evidence.
Masonry is not a religion. But it is one of the few platforms where men of all monotheistic faiths - Christians (including Catholics), Jews, and Muslims - can come together because it is open to all men who believe in a Supreme Being;
It is religious in that it teaches monotheism; the Volume of the Sacred Law is open upon its altars whenever a Lodge is in session; reverence for God is ever present in its ceremonial, and to its brethren are constantly addressed lessons of morality; yet it is not sectarian or theological.
What Freemasons Believe In
All Freemasons believe in one God and in respect for each other.
"Novus Ordo Seclorum"? What does that mean?
It means a New World
without God. ("New Secular World") Freemasons put that statement
on the back of every Federal Reserve Note!
The hankering of the mind is irresistible;"
Adam Weishaupt 33º degree Freemason (code-name "Spartacus"
- Bush II Code Name = "Temporary" Bush I = "Magog" )
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Hey man, you are free to claim whatever you want. I simply asked for a minimal amount of proof that the landmark for monotheism is a BINDING AND ENFORCED RULE THROUGHOUT REGULAR MASONRY.
Did you even bother to look up Masonic Landmarks? Do not bother, I will do your homework for you again:
My idea of an Ancient Landmark is a rule or usage of the Premier Grand Lodge which can not be abrogated, without cutting off the offending Body from the Universal Craft." (W. J. Hughan.) Source
There are numerous other quotes that show that the Landmarks are required obeservances of Masonic law.