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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 05:44 PM
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reply to post by Erbal
 



even the Masons who believe limited powers are the same thing as omnipotence... but hey, remind me again why Masons simply do not worship anything less than a Supreme Being.
You are putting words in my mouth, I didn't say I believe that limited powers are the same thing as Omnipotence, I said that the premise and questions creates a paradox (one that seems to be lost on you).

Also I will remind you that not all Freemasons are what Augustus would call "Regular". As was said earlier in this post I am from an Order that doesn't require a statement of Theological belief at all. As a result, my Order isn't in communication with mainstream Masonry, therefore my answers don't reflect upon it.




posted on Oct, 10 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by no1smootha
reply to post by Erbal
 



even the Masons who believe limited powers are the same thing as omnipotence... but hey, remind me again why Masons simply do not worship anything less than a Supreme Being.
You are putting words in my mouth, I didn't say I believe that limited powers are the same thing as Omnipotence, I said that the premise and questions creates a paradox (one that seems to be lost on you).

Also I will remind you that not all Freemasons are what Augustus would call "Regular". As was said earlier in this post I am from an Order that doesn't require a statement of Theological belief at all. As a result, my Order isn't in communication with mainstream Masonry, therefore my answers don't reflect upon it.


The paradox isn't lost on me, what's lost on you is the fact this paradox never properly applied to my end of our conversation despite your efforts to assert it does. The paradox applies to your claims, you are the one claiming if X does Y, Z must happen, and if Z happens then X cannot be omnipotent.

I'm simply saying if there is a limit to X's power, X's power is not unlimited, nowhere is a reaction or consequence, to any action, relevant to my argument... that's not a paradox, that's common sense!!!!

My interpretation of omnipotence (unlimited power) states the power is not limited to what makes logical sense to human beings.

You have clearly expressed yourself as a person who interprets omnipotence (unlimited power) as powers strictly limited to only what makes logical sense to human beings.

-----
To the last part of your post: You've expressed yourself multiple times in a way that forces me to conclude we are NOT in agreement and I did not put words in your mouth. Also, I didn't imply you were a mainstream Mason. I was speaking about Masons in general, which you are a part of. I didn't ask you to speak on behalf of mainstream Masons which you are not a part of, I asked you to remind me why the title of this thread is a true statement... that is something anyone here is able to respond to.

edit on 10-10-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
It's pretty simple, Augustus... regular Masonry either consciously and actively attempts to ensure the interviewer and interviewee are on the same exact regarding the God requirement, or it does not consciously attempt to ensure such a thing.

If it's the latter, you are not in a position to accurately tell me what the member base of regular Freemasonry does or does not contain. If it's the former, you are in a pretty good position to accurately tell me what the member base consists of.


Why do you keep ingnoring the real-lefi examples I have given you? It is obviously the former as if a proposed candidate asks for a defintion it is given to him. It is also, as has been linked, on Grand Lodge websites and I can safely assume, literature as well. Masonry is Monotheistic in nature and seeks members that are as well.


Earlier, you make the bold implication that all regular Masons have PROFESSED MONOTHEISM. I do not see any evidence of that being a fact for even a minority of Masons let alone the entire group. In fact, your statement is so unsupported, and in conflict with countless first hand accounts written by Masons and ex-Masons, that I question whether or not you even believe your own claim.


To profess a belief in a Supreme Being is as Monotheistic as it gets. I have yet to see your counter arguement that disproves belief in a Supreme Being as anything less than Monotheism.


And lastly, I have not seen anyone here give a valid explanation of why the title of this thread and the OP's argument, that a required belief in a Supreme Being equates to no worshiping of anything else. I've about given up hope on this one, every single time I ask for an explanation of why this is true, I'm met with a response that steers the conversation into a different direction.


I have repeated the same thing many times now, if you profess belief in a Supreme Being and go off and worship something else then you in reality do not have belief in a Supreme Being and are Polytheistic which would make one no longer a Mason.


I'm just a skeptic who is seeing all kinds of statements and claims being presented as fact without sound arguments to support them.


The claims are fully supported by links and real-world experiences.



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


I think you make very good points but you state........ Quote "I have repeated the same thing many times now, if you profess belief in a Supreme Being and go off and worship something else then you in reality do not have belief in a Supreme Being and are Polytheistic which would make one no longer a Mason."Quote


But if the Mason in question did have a Polytheistic belief but didn't tell his fellow Masons he's still officially a recognized Mason, maybe by this belief system he can't get the same meaning out of the teachings then a non-polytheistic Mason might get but by default he still is a Mason, i know it's semantics but i'm just saying.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:29 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
It's pretty simple, Augustus... regular Masonry either consciously and actively attempts to ensure the interviewer and interviewee are on the same exact regarding the God requirement, or it does not consciously attempt to ensure such a thing.

If it's the latter, you are not in a position to accurately tell me what the member base of regular Freemasonry does or does not contain. If it's the former, you are in a pretty good position to accurately tell me what the member base consists of.


Why do you keep ingnoring the real-lefi examples I have given you? It is obviously the former as if a proposed candidate asks for a defintion it is given to him. It is also, as has been linked, on Grand Lodge websites and I can safely assume, literature as well. Masonry is Monotheistic in nature and seeks members that are as well.


If you chose to wait for candidates to take it upon themselves to ask specific questions before you clarify vague terms, and you never put forth any effort in the conversation to check interviewee's interpretation and understanding of all the key aspects to the God requirement, I do not consider that an active and conscious effort to ensure all parties involved are on the same exact page.

If you owned a liquor store and asked each customer if they are the legal age but never ask for ID, I would have no logical reason to believe it's a fact you never sell to minors.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Earlier, you make the bold implication that all regular Masons have PROFESSED MONOTHEISM. I do not see any evidence of that being a fact for even a minority of Masons let alone the entire group. In fact, your statement is so unsupported, and in conflict with countless first hand accounts written by Masons and ex-Masons, that I question whether or not you even believe your own claim.


To profess a belief in a Supreme Being is as Monotheistic as it gets. I have yet to see your counter arguement that disproves belief in a Supreme Being as anything less than Monotheism.

Ummm, being a genuine Monotheist is as Monotheistic as it gets... simply saying you are a monotheist is simply saying you are a monotheist.

You never explained why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist, this is why I didn't bother with a counter-argument. You are being ridiculous by insisting I disprove your assertion you can't be bothered to prove true in the first place.

Here are 3 reasons why a belief in a supreme god does not equate to monotheism: monolatrism, henotheism, and polytheism.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
And lastly, I have not seen anyone here give a valid explanation of why the title of this thread and the OP's argument, that a required belief in a Supreme Being equates to no worshiping of anything else. I've about given up hope on this one, every single time I ask for an explanation of why this is true, I'm met with a response that steers the conversation into a different direction.


I have repeated the same thing many times now, if you profess belief in a Supreme Being and go off and worship something else then you in reality do not have belief in a Supreme Being and are Polytheistic which would make one no longer a Mason.

Now you are back to the logical fallacy commonly known as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
Unless your fraternity expels all Masons who are NOT monotheistic (which that in of itself would motivate some people to lie), it is your minority opinion and not even close to being a fact that polytheistic Masons are not actually Masons.

Are you being intentionally misleading, aka lying, when you claim an upstanding regular Mason who subscribes to a non-monotheistic religious view is not an upstanding regular Mason?


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
I'm just a skeptic who is seeing all kinds of statements and claims being presented as fact without sound arguments to support them.


The claims are fully supported by links and real-world experiences.

Your claims have been fully supported by a bunch of BS.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 04:19 AM
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Perhaps I should clear up a few details here where the non-Masons have not had first-hand experience...

1. An investigation committee has prescribed formal questions which they must ask. The relevant formal question which must be asked is : "Do you believe in a Supreme Being?" No more, no less.

2. In addition to the formal question, the meeting is usually about an hour long and involves a discussion with the candidate, where the committee ensures that the candidate understands what Freemasonry is about. In my experience, this committee is usually made up of the Master and his two Wardens, and one or two Past Masters. What these committee members ask informally is not prescribed, and is completely up to them. These discussions and informal questions vary greatly from interview to interview, and are usually very subjective.

3. It is very possible that a candidate may lie. You will probably find thousands of people who were initiated as Masons who don't even believe in God, but said they did. These candidates, along with those who are not monotheistic normally gain nothing from Freemasonry and leave quickly. I have even witnessed this myself on more than one occasion. However, I don't personally know of a single person who is currently in the Fraternity who is not monotheistic in belief. (Bearing in mind that "Monotheism", in practice, has many interpretations. Many Masons, including myself, believe in different Manifestations of God.)



edit on 12/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by King Seesar
But if the Mason in question did have a Polytheistic belief but didn't tell his fellow Masons he's still officially a recognized Mason, maybe by this belief system he can't get the same meaning out of the teachings then a non-polytheistic Mason might get but by default he still is a Mason, i know it's semantics but i'm just saying.


I acutally addressed this earlier. If the situation you described occurs then the person in question is a liar and is subject to expulsion.

Additionally, Masonic ritual is clear in its monotheistic references, a person who is polytheistic will find little to nothing to relate to in this regard.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 05:26 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
If you chose to wait for candidates to take it upon themselves to ask specific questions before you clarify vague terms, and you never put forth any effort in the conversation to check interviewee's interpretation and understanding of all the key aspects to the God requirement, I do not consider that an active and conscious effort to ensure all parties involved are on the same exact page.


The candidate questionaire that is required to be filled out comes with a pamhlet that explains the absic tenets of Masonry, including the Supreme Being portion of the requirements. I only gave my examples as persons who were looking for further clarification.


Earlier, you make the bold implication that all regular Masons have PROFESSED MONOTHEISM. I do not see any evidence of that being a fact for even a minority of Masons let alone the entire group. In fact, your statement is so unsupported, and in conflict with countless first hand accounts written by Masons and ex-Masons, that I question whether or not you even believe your own claim.


Because in the degrees the candidate is expressly asked to profess faith in God. There is no mistaking that or confusing it with anything else.


Ummm, being a genuine Monotheist is as Monotheistic as it gets... simply saying you are a monotheist is simply saying you are a monotheist.

You never explained why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist, this is why I didn't bother with a counter-argument. You are being ridiculous by insisting I disprove your assertion you can't be bothered to prove true in the first place.


Because a Supreme Being is supreme, how would belief in multiple gods make you monotheisitc?


Here are 3 reasons why a belief in a supreme god does not equate to monotheism: monolatrism, henotheism, and polytheism.


Monolatrism recognizes many gods and is not acceptable. Henotheism recognizes that others may worhsip their own gods with equal validity, which does not exquate to polytheism for the person being tolerant towrds another's faith. Polytheism (who knows why you even mentioned this) is the worship of many gods which we have covered ad nauseum and obviously you failed to acknowledge.


Now you are back to the logical fallacy commonly known as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
Unless your fraternity expels all Masons who are NOT monotheistic (which that in of itself would motivate some people to lie), it is your minority opinion and not even close to being a fact that polytheistic Masons are not actually Masons.


In my jurisdiction they would be expelled.


Are you being intentionally misleading, aka lying, when you claim an upstanding regular Mason who subscribes to a non-monotheistic religious view is not an upstanding regular Mason?


They are not an upstanding anything because they lied about their beliefs to join.


Your claims have been fully supported by a bunch of BS.


And your counter-arguement is your unknowledgable opinion based on zero experience.

I take it you do not believe the linked quote to the Grand Lodge's website regarding Monotheisim? I guess that is bull too.....



edit on 12-10-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude worships tea



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by King Seesar
But if the Mason in question did have a Polytheistic belief but didn't tell his fellow Masons he's still officially a recognized Mason, maybe by this belief system he can't get the same meaning out of the teachings then a non-polytheistic Mason might get but by default he still is a Mason, i know it's semantics but i'm just saying.


I acutally addressed this earlier. If the situation you described occurs then the person in question is a liar and is subject to expulsion.

Additionally, Masonic ritual is clear in its monotheistic references, a person who is polytheistic will find little to nothing to relate to in this regard.
Unless a Mason actually gets expelled from the lodge, they are still considered a Mason, correct? So your points are incredibly irrelevant unless they involve ENFORCED RULES.

Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who have told a lie?
Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who are not monotheistic?

I don't think so but feel free to support your claims with facts, it will be a welcomed change of pace for your posts.

Perhaps you should speak to the Masons on Askafreemason.org, the mods there are claiming Freemasonry is not exclusive to monotheism, and as long as you simply say you believe in God you have met the faith requirement of Masonry and will NEVER be asked to clarify your beliefs.
www.masonforum.com...



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who have told a lie?


Nothing that I could link here but there were 5 expulsions last year in my jurisdiction for dishonesty of varying degrees.


Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who are not monotheistic?


Again, nothing that I could link. Typically when a Mason is expelled the lodges are informed that he was expelled for un-Masonic conduct but they omit the details.


Perhaps you should speak to the Masons on Askafreemason.org, the mods there are claiming Freemasonry is not exclusive to monotheism, and as long as you simply say you believe in God you have met the faith requirement of Masonry and will NEVER be asked to clarify your beliefs.


Are you actually reading what I write? I never said we ask anyone to clarify their beliefs. The only points I mentioned about clarification are when a candidate asks himself, not us asking him. Further, the questionaire we use in New Jersey is quite clear on what belief in a Supreme Being entails. Stop and read that a few times before commenting further.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Earlier, you make the bold implication that all regular Masons have PROFESSED MONOTHEISM. I do not see any evidence of that being a fact for even a minority of Masons let alone the entire group. In fact, your statement is so unsupported, and in conflict with countless first hand accounts written by Masons and ex-Masons, that I question whether or not you even believe your own claim.


Because in the degrees the candidate is expressly asked to profess faith in God. There is no mistaking that or confusing it with anything else.

Dude, professing faith in God can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE.
Professing monotheism requires a belief in God but professing a belief in God does NOT require monotheism at all.

You are talking nonsense now.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Ummm, being a genuine Monotheist is as Monotheistic as it gets... simply saying you are a monotheist is simply saying you are a monotheist.

You never explained why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist, this is why I didn't bother with a counter-argument. You are being ridiculous by insisting I disprove your assertion you can't be bothered to prove true in the first place.


Because a Supreme Being is supreme, how would belief in multiple gods make you monotheisitc?

I asked why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist... and you respond by asking how a belief in multiple gods makes you monotheistic?

What are you talking about, are you confused?


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Here are 3 reasons why a belief in a supreme god does not equate to monotheism: monolatrism, henotheism, and polytheism.


Monolatrism recognizes many gods and is not acceptable. Henotheism recognizes that others may worhsip their own gods with equal validity, which does not exquate to polytheism for the person being tolerant towrds another's faith. Polytheism (who knows why you even mentioned this) is the worship of many gods which we have covered ad nauseum and obviously you failed to acknowledge.

You clearly missed the point... those are examples of religious views which can believe in a Supreme Being while still believing in the existence of other supernatural deities.
Have you forgotten that you tried to claim a belief in a Supreme Being means you cannot be anything but monotheistic? I proved that to be untrue.


Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Now you are back to the logical fallacy commonly known as the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?
Unless your fraternity expels all Masons who are NOT monotheistic (which that in of itself would motivate some people to lie), it is your minority opinion and not even close to being a fact that polytheistic Masons are not actually Masons.


In my jurisdiction they would be expelled.

You created the impression you have been speaking for Regular Freemasonry as a whole... but OK, if you are now speaking about your jurisdiction, again, I ask for SOME evidence you guys expel Masons who are not monotheists.
If all you have is your word, which just so happens to contradict a significant amount of other Masons, you should have mentioned that at the start so everyone knew this is all just your opinion and not something presented as fact.



Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Are you being intentionally misleading, aka lying, when you claim an upstanding regular Mason who subscribes to a non-monotheistic religious view is not an upstanding regular Mason?


They are not an upstanding anything because they lied about their beliefs to join.

How can you say anyone lied about a highly subjective question that was left open to their own interpretation when they are never asked follow up questions to ensure everyone is on the same page and there are no misunderstandings? It's simple; you can't know for sure they lied unless you have more information.

In fact, I do believe it would violate your oaths if you went around the lodge accussing your Mason brothers of lying about their faith and labeling them as not being real or upstanding Masons.

It's pretty clear: A Masons allowed to continue being an official Mason is still officially a Mason, and this is true regardless of what they do or say.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by ErbalYour claims have been fully supported by a bunch of BS.


And your counter-arguement is your unknowledgable opinion based on zero experience.

I take it you do not believe the linked quote to the Grand Lodge's website regarding Monotheisim? I guess that is bull too.....


Are you referring to the quote by Saurus on page 26 of this thread? If not, I have no idea what you are talking about.
It wasn't a linked quote, it was simply a bare quote without a link. It did cite an unlinked source that I am unable to verify.

But OK, I'll assume that quote came from the Grand Lodge's website... so what? All it says is monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry and a belief in one God is a requirement, but it says it leaves the interpretation of that to each individual and Freemasonry is not concerned with any theological distinctions.


Throughout our conversation you failed to describe a real screening process for Masonry to weed out people who are not monotheistic, instead you clearly described an open door honor system built ontop of assumptions and unspoken implications.

It's like a man having sex with a man while doing time in prison and he doesn't believe it was gay. Then he wants to join a club which has a requirement you must be a straight male. In the interview process, all they do is ask if you are straight and they never ask other questions to make sure both parties are on the same page regarding the interpretation of straight and gay; it's assumed everyone interprets those words the same way. This guy would not be lying when he said he believed he was straight, and he would be allowed admittance into the club despite the fact he had gay sex and would do it again if he were back in prison.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who have told a lie?


Nothing that I could link here but there were 5 expulsions last year in my jurisdiction for dishonesty of varying degrees.


Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who are not monotheistic?


Again, nothing that I could link. Typically when a Mason is expelled the lodges are informed that he was expelled for un-Masonic conduct but they omit the details.


Perhaps you should speak to the Masons on Askafreemason.org, the mods there are claiming Freemasonry is not exclusive to monotheism, and as long as you simply say you believe in God you have met the faith requirement of Masonry and will NEVER be asked to clarify your beliefs.


Are you actually reading what I write? I never said we ask anyone to clarify their beliefs. The only points I mentioned about clarification are when a candidate asks himself, not us asking him. Further, the questionaire we use in New Jersey is quite clear on what belief in a Supreme Being entails. Stop and read that a few times before commenting further.


So you are making claims you literally cannot support in any way other than giving your word? Great, you could have saved us both a lot of time by declaring from the start that I must take your word as gospel.

So what happens when the Masonic oaths to protect your brothers turns into a situation where you must be intentionally misleading in order to help your brother? You get kicked out for lying?

Come on, you can't tell me a lie in of itself is something that gets you expelled.. there must a bigger reason associated with the lie in order to expel someone or you would have 0 official Masons left. Everyone lies at some point no matter how hard they try because we are not perfect.
edit on 12-10-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by Erbal
 

We do enforce our rules.


Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who have told a lie?

My Lodge expelled a guy last year who lied at work and a crime involving fraud and nepotism. It didn't involve any other Masons, but we still expelled him for what was seen as unMasonic conduct. My year as Master I found out a petitioner had lied to the Investigating committee so even after he was elected by the Brothers to join I told him he was not welcome and returned his money.


Do you have any evidence of regular Freemasonry consistently expelling Masons who are not monotheistic?

I don't, but then again in the Blue Lodge we never ask what your specific belief in a higher power is. Only in bodies like the Knights Templar or Red Cross of Constantine do we ask this.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


Someone was kicked out for criminal activity (fraud) and you use that as an example of someone being kicked out for lying? Did he commit a felony and was expelled for violating the felon rule?

I also don't know the details of your story about person who lied on their interview and was denied membership... for all I know, he lied about being convicted of a felony.

The felony rule is easily enforced because it's easily verified and it looks bad to have a bunch of convicted felons hanging around.

As for expelling members simply for lying: can you, at the very least, link a regular Masonic website that states the act of lying is grounds for expulsion from the lodge? I have an incredibly difficult time accepting the premise that just the act of lying on any level is grounds for expulsion.

Thanks for admitting regular Freemasonry does not expel members for not being monotheists, and thank you for admitting regular Freemasonry does not ask candidates/initiates any specifics about their personal brand of faith... so it's total BS when Augustus claims that ALL regular Masons are monotheists and anyone who isn't will get kicked out? I assume the answer is yes.
edit on 12-10-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-10-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 11:57 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by King Seesar
But if the Mason in question did have a Polytheistic belief but didn't tell his fellow Masons he's still officially a recognized Mason, maybe by this belief system he can't get the same meaning out of the teachings then a non-polytheistic Mason might get but by default he still is a Mason, i know it's semantics but i'm just saying.


I acutally addressed this earlier. If the situation you described occurs then the person in question is a liar and is subject to expulsion.

Additionally, Masonic ritual is clear in its monotheistic references, a person who is polytheistic will find little to nothing to relate to in this regard.


Yea both you (AugustusMasoicus) and Saurus did a good job of explaining your concept if this ever happened but like i said it boils down to semantics because all a Polytheistic Mason would have to do is keep up the lie and he could still be a Mason for life, i understand that such a Mason would not get the same out of Masonry then a non-Polytheistic but maybe he's hypothetically there for a different reason for the friendships or what ever.

It does shock me about the 5 expulsions in your jurisdiction and what KSigMason said about the Mason in his area who he told was not welcome and returned his money, but it fits with my theory about the so called high level Mason (Cointelpro, cabals ect ect) degrees not being officially recognized by the by-laws of Freemasonry and all the crap they do being done on the side, because if it was known the members doing this on the side would be thrown out.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 12:33 AM
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reply to post by Erbal
 

He lied about it initially. I know of a few examples of people getting kicked out for lying, but not in my Lodge. When I first joined the York Rite, the Commander of the Templars was kicked out for lying and misusing Lodges funds. Usually lying goes along with other crimes.


I also don't know the details of your story about person who lied on their interview and was denied membership... for all I know, he lied about being convicted of a felony.

He lied about being a convicted pedo.


As for expelling members simply for lying: can you, at the very least, link a regular Masonic website that states the act of lying is grounds for expulsion from the lodge? I have an incredibly difficult time accepting the premise that just the act of lying on any level is grounds for expulsion.

There are several Grand Lodges that have their Constitution and By-Laws online. The Penal Code is general in what it describes as an offense, but essentially anything that goes against our obligations and charges. Truth is a lesson taught and to lie would go against that and could be brought up on charges in Lodge.


So it's total BS when Augustus claims that ALL regular Masons are monotheists and anyone who isn't will get kicked out? I assume the answer is yes.

I can't speak for Augustus and his jurisdiction, but I've never seen it happen.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Dude, professing faith in God can mean ANYTHING to ANYONE.
Professing monotheism requires a belief in God but professing a belief in God does NOT require monotheism at all.


Being that the requirement is monotheistic the profession of faith is also monotheistic.


I asked why a belief in a Supreme Being means you are a monotheist... and you respond by asking how a belief in multiple gods makes you monotheistic?

What are you talking about, are you confused?


No, you are the one who is confusing yourself. You blather on about how someone can be monotheistic and worship other beings which makes zero sense. You either believe in a Supreme Being or you do not. When you start worshipping anything but that Supreme Being you are polytheistic.


You clearly missed the point... those are examples of religious views which can believe in a Supreme Being while still believing in the existence of other supernatural deities.
Have you forgotten that you tried to claim a belief in a Supreme Being means you cannot be anything but monotheistic? I proved that to be untrue.


Huh? The defintions themselves disprove this:


Henotheism is closely related to the theistic concept of monolatry, which is also the worship of one god among many. The primary difference between the two is that henotheism is the worship of one god, not precluding the existence of others who may also be worthy of praise, while Monolatry is the worship of one god who alone is worthy of worship, though other gods are known to exist.


Read that s-l-o-w-l-y, neither of those are truly monotheistic in nature.


You created the impression you have been speaking for Regular Freemasonry as a whole...


I have seen none of the other Masons who post here contradict anything that I have said about being monotheistic in regards Masonry. If they did so I would retract my statement regarding this but this aspect of Masonry is consistent. Belief in God, in the context of Masonry, means monotheism.


How can you say anyone lied about a highly subjective question that was left open to their own interpretation when they are never asked follow up questions to ensure everyone is on the same page and there are no misunderstandings? It's simple; you can't know for sure they lied unless you have more information.


Someone can obviously lie and claim they are monotheistic, but as all Masons know, your are first made a Mason in your heart. Lying to gain admission and betraying other's trust is something they have to bear, they know they are not a Mason and should demit. And to be perfectly frank, their is nothing for anyone who is not monotheistic to take from Masonry's lessons, it is geared towards the monotheistic.

In regards questions, once again, because you seem to be ignoring this, the questionaire that each candidate is given prior to petitioning spells out what Supreme Being means. If they need further clarification they can ask their investigating committee. It is quite simple, belief in a Supreme Being means belief in God, one singular God.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
Are you referring to the quote by Saurus on page 26 of this thread? If not, I have no idea what you are talking about.
It wasn't a linked quote, it was simply a bare quote without a link. It did cite an unlinked source that I am unable to verify.


You obvioualy put very little effort into looking:


The following Landmarks are common to all officially adopted lists:
(1) Monotheism is the sole dogma of Freemasonry. Belief in one God is
required of every initiate, but his conception of the Supreme Being is left to his
own interpretation. Freemasonry is not concerned with theological distinctions.
This is the basis of our universality. LINK


Read that a few times and tell me that I am wrong.

One God. Singular. Not many gods and various other things to worship, one God.



posted on Oct, 13 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Erbal
So you are making claims you literally cannot support in any way other than giving your word? Great, you could have saved us both a lot of time by declaring from the start that I must take your word as gospel.


Whether you choose to believe me is your perogative, nothing has contradicted what I said.


So what happens when the Masonic oaths to protect your brothers turns into a situation where you must be intentionally misleading in order to help your brother? You get kicked out for lying?


I would never lie to help anyone in lodge and yes it is grounds for expulsion. One of the first lessons covered are being true to the laws of your country.


Come on, you can't tell me a lie in of itself is something that gets you expelled.. there must a bigger reason associated with the lie in order to expel someone or you would have 0 official Masons left. Everyone lies at some point no matter how hard they try because we are not perfect.


Lying is rather serious and goes against what we are taught. I am not talking about white lies or things of that nature but being deceptive for personal gains or advancement, lying about your details on your addmission, etc.

If you can get kicked out for drunkeness and other actions which, outside of the lodge, would probably not get you a slap on the wrist I think lying should not come as a surprise. Masons are expected to act better than this and are held to a higher standard.









 
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