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What are you saying, exactly?
Originally posted by KSigMason
Fact remains, there is no worshiping of Lucifer or Satan within Freemasonry.
Originally posted by Saurus
There is only one Creator (the Supreme Being).
Whaterever you call the Creator, it is still the same supreme being.
Even if Masons did believe that the Bible lied and the Creator is called Satan, it is still the Creator.
Since you worship the Creator, and Masons worship the Creator, even if you called the Creator God, and Masons called him Satan, we would still be Worshiping the same God, right. (If you call a horse a dog, it is still a horse).
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
The concept of Satan was purely a Christian creation. There was no legend or myth of a fallen angel who presides in Hell until the Christian era and it was not fully codified until 1213 in the Fourth Lateran Council.
The word Lucifer equalling Satan was a Miltonian mistranslation in a novel from the Medieval period and was not even believed to represent Satan when the New Testament was written.
Originally posted by Erbal
Who is professing to be monotheistic and how did they profess they are monotheistic?
I'm not a Mason but I am under the impression a few things take place for Masons initiated into regular Freemasonry... please correct me if my "common knowledge" information is inaccurate.
When you are initiated into Regular Freemasonry, you are not asked specifics about your faith beyond whether or not you believe in a God. It's not good "Masonic etiquette" for Masons to ask each other about their individual faith, that is between them and their God. As long as you claim to believe in God or a Supreme Being, that is good enough to fulfill that requirement for regular Masonry.
So who is professing to be monotheistic and how do they profess it?
And my question remains unanswered... I will repeat the question, for clarity. (I know, it's getting old, but no one is willing to answer the simple question)
Why does being required to BELIEVE in a Supreme Being mean you cannot WORSHIP anything less than a Supreme Being?
You attacked my reading comprehension more than once...
As far as I have seen, you have not even attempted to explain why "Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)", you have only explained why Lucifer/Satan is not a Supreme Being.
Do you understand my question?
Originally posted by arpgme
I know, but despite the origins of the character some may still believe him to be The Supreme Creator just as Christians/Jews believe Yahweh (Jehovah - God of Moses) to be the supreme creator even though he started off as a lesser god by The Ancient Canaanites.
I don't know what YOU mean by worship.
Worship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power or being
I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "Lucifer or Satan."
I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "within Freemasonry."
Originally posted by arpgme
That is what Luciferianism is, believing that Lucifer is the real Supreme God.
Originally posted by Erbal
I don't know what YOU mean by worship.
Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
That is what Luciferianism is, believing that Lucifer is the real Supreme God.
Originally posted by Saurus
Originally posted by Erbal
I don't know what YOU mean by worship.
If worshiping a lesser being is possible, then permit me to answer your question with another question, which is probably easier than explaining my thoughts...
Many Christian churches authorize supplication, prayer and veneration of heavenly beings, angels, and saints. Is this worship?
Then, if Lucifer/Satan is a fallen angel, then how is Christianty any different to people who worship Lucifer. Christians just worship different Angels.
edit on 9/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Who is professing to be monotheistic and how did they profess they are monotheistic?
The topic is in regards Masons so that is who would have to profess to be monotheistic.
I'm not a Mason but I am under the impression a few things take place for Masons initiated into regular Freemasonry... please correct me if my "common knowledge" information is inaccurate.
When you are initiated into Regular Freemasonry, you are not asked specifics about your faith beyond whether or not you believe in a God. It's not good "Masonic etiquette" for Masons to ask each other about their individual faith, that is between them and their God. As long as you claim to believe in God or a Supreme Being, that is good enough to fulfill that requirement for regular Masonry.
So who is professing to be monotheistic and how do they profess it?
Because the defintion of a Supreme Being is one of omnipotence, to declare belief in a Supreme Being makes one automatically Monotheistic.
And my question remains unanswered... I will repeat the question, for clarity. (I know, it's getting old, but no one is willing to answer the simple question)
Why does being required to BELIEVE in a Supreme Being mean you cannot WORSHIP anything less than a Supreme Being?
How can belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism) allow you to worship anything else?
You attacked my reading comprehension more than once...
I apologized, if you do not wish to accept it that is the extent of what I can do.
As far as I have seen, you have not even attempted to explain why "Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)", you have only explained why Lucifer/Satan is not a Supreme Being.
Do you understand my question?
I think it is extremely simplistic, Lucifer (in the Christian historicla context) is at best a demi-God, Masons must have a belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism), worship of anything but God is not Monotheisim but Polytheisim.
Originally posted by Erbal
Everyone has their own definitions of what God is, especially before entering into Freemasonry. All they ask about your views on faith and God is if you believe in God.
HOW AND WHEN DOES A MASON PROFESS TO BEING MONOTHEISTIC?????????????????
At what point in the Masonic initiation process, or Masonic membership beyond that point, does anyone ever explicitly speak of being, or having to be, "MONOTHEISTIC?"
Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.
Stop blowing smoke. Your story is CONSTANTLY changing. And you are still refusing to answer the simple question of why your OP's argument is true and valid.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Erbal
Everyone has their own definitions of what God is, especially before entering into Freemasonry. All they ask about your views on faith and God is if you believe in God.
HOW AND WHEN DOES A MASON PROFESS TO BEING MONOTHEISTIC?????????????????
If they answer 'yes' to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being prior to being voted upon. There are other instances during the ritual where the candidate must profess a belief in God.
At what point in the Masonic initiation process, or Masonic membership beyond that point, does anyone ever explicitly speak of being, or having to be, "MONOTHEISTIC?"
It is implied and understood that Monotheism is a requirement. I have had several candidates during the investigation ask, 'I do not believe in the Christian/Muslim/Jewish version of God, is this okay?', at which point they would be asked if they believe in a single creator, i.e. a Supreme Being. As long as they believe in a God, not plurals gods there is no issue.
Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.
We have some Hindus in our lodge and they specifically stated during the investigation that they felt that everything is a manifestation of a singular God and not individual gods with unique charateristics.
Stop blowing smoke. Your story is CONSTANTLY changing. And you are still refusing to answer the simple question of why your OP's argument is true and valid.
My story has remained consistent for close to 500 posts in this thread and I have repeatedly explained why Lucifer or Satan would not be objects of worship for a Mason.
Originally posted by Erbal
Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.
there are perhaps MILLIONS of Christian-Masons so isn't your line of questioning counter-intuitive to the OP's argument?
Originally posted by Erbal
Hold up, man. Do you guys explain exactly what you mean by a Supreme Being before you ask a candidate if they believe in a Supreme Being?
Precisely how does saying, or agreeing to the idea, there is a single creator equate to professing monotheism, and furthermore, how does this prevent anyone from worshiping Lucifer or Satan?
It seems to me that a Freemason is the same as a non-Masons; both are capable of lying, both are capable of having their own interpretations, and both are capable of believing/worshiping whatever they want.
An honor system built upon implied but unspoken requirements without real questions being asked is no tangible screening process which removes the possibility of Lucifer/Satan worshiping. Get real. Your argument is hypothetical and lacks valid logic to support it.
Thanks for your time but unless you can fill in the blanks you still refuse to fill in, I am FORCED to conclude that your arguments are invalid.
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal
There are two very, very basic ways to look at this.
Do you believe that one Supreme Being created all that is, or do you believe it was all random coincidence?
I do not wish to step into the steaming pile you keep setting down in front of Augustus, but I can see it very clearly from here. A belief in one creator is a belief in God. Those that do not believe in God and think that everything was created by chance are of the opposite belief.
Once that has been established, you can split hairs all day long about the inner workings of religion, dogma, personal responsibility, and so on, but at the very basic level of does God exist in your eyes, is all that masonry is concerned with. And once you accept that God, being the creator of all, would not/could not create a being more powerful than himself, leads you to understand the OP in it's entirety.
Have a nice day.
edit to add:
after reading your last post, I think I understand your confusion. We as people, (not just masons) assume that when asking a man if he believes in God or creator, and the man answers "yes" that he understands the implications of that question. It may be an imperfect system based on the few who have put the level of thought in it that you have, but I think we can be relatively sure that we have done a fair job in weeding out the atheists.edit on 9-10-2012 by network dude because: added information
Originally posted by Erbal
What you are saying is all people are either monotheistic or atheistic... I feel that is a false dichotomy. There is an assortment of beliefs that are not monotheistic or atheistic in nature.
The OP's argument is completely invalid unless you can demonstrate regular Freemasonry is actively trying to maintain a purely monotheistic member base.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I made it clear that Polytheisism also exists, just not in Masonry.
Regular Masonry is indeed Monotheistic and only seeks to initiate candidates that ascribe to this aspect of belief.
Originally posted by Erbal
Do you ask new or old initiates to explain the details of their individual and personal faith/interpretation regarding God, beyond simply asking if they believe in God, at ANY point?
Is it possible for people to change faiths, or claim the wrong faith intentionally or unintentionally?
It seems like you guys are not concerned with knowing the specifics of each individuals faith and interpretations...
...it seems like you are making assumptions and literally have no way to confirm what you are saying right now is in fact true.