Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan), page 25

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reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 12:58 AM by KSigMason

Fact remains, there is no worshiping of Lucifer or Satan within Freemasonry.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 02:39 AM by Erbal

Originally posted by KSigMason
Fact remains, there is no worshiping of Lucifer or Satan within Freemasonry.

What are you saying, exactly?

I don't know what YOU mean by worship.
I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "Lucifer or Satan."
I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "within Freemasonry."

Can you please give a good explanation of what you are saying? Your statement really has no meaning or substance in it's current form.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 03:56 AM by arpgme

reply to post by Saurus

Originally posted by Saurus
There is only one Creator (the Supreme Being).

Whaterever you call the Creator, it is still the same supreme being.

Even if Masons did believe that the Bible lied and the Creator is called Satan, it is still the Creator.

Since you worship the Creator, and Masons worship the Creator, even if you called the Creator God, and Masons called him Satan, we would still be Worshiping the same God, right. (If you call a horse a dog, it is still a horse).

But "Supreme Creator" is a title that is APPLIED to the being that created all. Saying that Lucifer is the supreme creator creates a whole new view of reality than believing that Jesus or Allah is the Supreme creator.

You say that Freemasonry only worships "The Supreme Creator", but who that is may be a different opinion for many and some may believe it to be Lucifer or Jesus or Allah and depending on who is "The Supreme Creator" this creates a whole new view of reality...

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
The concept of Satan was purely a Christian creation. There was no legend or myth of a fallen angel who presides in Hell until the Christian era and it was not fully codified until 1213 in the Fourth Lateran Council.

The word Lucifer equalling Satan was a Miltonian mistranslation in a novel from the Medieval period and was not even believed to represent Satan when the New Testament was written.

I know, but despite the origins of the character some may still believe him to be The Supreme Creator just as Christians/Jews believe Yahweh (Jehovah - God of Moses) to be the supreme creator even though he started off as a lesser god by The Ancient Canaanites.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 06:57 AM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Who is professing to be monotheistic and how did they profess they are monotheistic?

The topic is in regards Masons so that is who would have to profess to be monotheistic.

I'm not a Mason but I am under the impression a few things take place for Masons initiated into regular Freemasonry... please correct me if my "common knowledge" information is inaccurate.

When you are initiated into Regular Freemasonry, you are not asked specifics about your faith beyond whether or not you believe in a God. It's not good "Masonic etiquette" for Masons to ask each other about their individual faith, that is between them and their God. As long as you claim to believe in God or a Supreme Being, that is good enough to fulfill that requirement for regular Masonry.

So who is professing to be monotheistic and how do they profess it?

Because the defintion of a Supreme Being is one of omnipotence, to declare belief in a Supreme Being makes one automatically Monotheistic.

And my question remains unanswered... I will repeat the question, for clarity. (I know, it's getting old, but no one is willing to answer the simple question)

Why does being required to BELIEVE in a Supreme Being mean you cannot WORSHIP anything less than a Supreme Being?

How can belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism) allow you to worship anything else?

You attacked my reading comprehension more than once...

I apologized, if you do not wish to accept it that is the extent of what I can do.

As far as I have seen, you have not even attempted to explain why "Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)", you have only explained why Lucifer/Satan is not a Supreme Being.

Do you understand my question?

I think it is extremely simplistic, Lucifer (in the Christian historicla context) is at best a demi-God, Masons must have a belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism), worship of anything but God is not Monotheisim but Polytheisim.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 07:03 AM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by arpgme
I know, but despite the origins of the character some may still believe him to be The Supreme Creator just as Christians/Jews believe Yahweh (Jehovah - God of Moses) to be the supreme creator even though he started off as a lesser god by The Ancient Canaanites.

I have yet to encounter a mythology (other then Christianity) that places the character of Satan in a position of authority, let alone asrcibes him power to challenge God and rule in his own kingdom. In every mythos the character of Satan is subordinate to God and therefore not supreme.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 10:15 AM by arpgme

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

That is what Luciferianism is, believing that Lucifer is the real Supreme God.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 11:22 AM by KSigMason

reply to post by Erbal

It's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

I don't know what YOU mean by worship.

This is what I mean:

Worship: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power or being

I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "Lucifer or Satan."

I don't know what YOU refer to when you say "within Freemasonry."

This isn't my problem and I'm not going to explain it to you as your just trying to derail this thread by pestering it with these rhetorical questions. It has been explained to you in ad nauseam.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 11:40 AM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by arpgme
That is what Luciferianism is, believing that Lucifer is the real Supreme God.

That is a minority view of Luciferianism as it typically has Lucifer as unjustly expelled from Heaven (which makes him subordinate to God) and a force for good and light. The origins of Luciferianism are based in Satanism which obviously has its mythos based in Christian Theology where Satan is a fallen angel. Even the name is based on a historical mistranslation which has nothing to do with Satan.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 12:23 PM by Saurus

Originally posted by Erbal

I don't know what YOU mean by worship.

If worshiping a lesser being is possible, then permit me to answer your question with another question, which is probably easier than explaining my thoughts...

Many Christian churches authorize supplication, prayer and veneration of heavenly beings, angels, and saints. Is this worship?

Then, if Lucifer/Satan is a fallen angel, then how is Christianty any different to people who worship Lucifer. Christians just worship different Angels.

edit on 9/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 12:31 PM by Saurus

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

That is what Luciferianism is, believing that Lucifer is the real Supreme God.

No matter what you call the one God, it's still the same God, because there is only one God! Therefore, you and Luciferians worship the same God, because there is only one, and he is Supreme.

The only difference between your beliefs and Luciferian beliefs (according to your definition) is an interpretation of the nature of God.

Think about it...

edit on 9/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 02:36 PM by Erbal

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by Erbal

I don't know what YOU mean by worship.

If worshiping a lesser being is possible, then permit me to answer your question with another question, which is probably easier than explaining my thoughts...

Many Christian churches authorize supplication, prayer and veneration of heavenly beings, angels, and saints. Is this worship?

Then, if Lucifer/Satan is a fallen angel, then how is Christianty any different to people who worship Lucifer. Christians just worship different Angels.

edit on 9/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

I'm not a Christian, I can't speak for Christians and what/how they worship... but there are perhaps MILLIONS of Christian-Masons so isn't your line of questioning counter-intuitive to the OP's argument?

But I'm not the one who is standing here telling people as a fact that an entire group of people does NOT worship something specific... shouldn't the people making this claim be the ones who should define what they feel constitutes worship, so we know what they mean, exactly?

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Who is professing to be monotheistic and how did they profess they are monotheistic?

The topic is in regards Masons so that is who would have to profess to be monotheistic.

I'm not a Mason but I am under the impression a few things take place for Masons initiated into regular Freemasonry... please correct me if my "common knowledge" information is inaccurate.

When you are initiated into Regular Freemasonry, you are not asked specifics about your faith beyond whether or not you believe in a God. It's not good "Masonic etiquette" for Masons to ask each other about their individual faith, that is between them and their God. As long as you claim to believe in God or a Supreme Being, that is good enough to fulfill that requirement for regular Masonry.

So who is professing to be monotheistic and how do they profess it?

Because the defintion of a Supreme Being is one of omnipotence, to declare belief in a Supreme Being makes one automatically Monotheistic.

And my question remains unanswered... I will repeat the question, for clarity. (I know, it's getting old, but no one is willing to answer the simple question)

Why does being required to BELIEVE in a Supreme Being mean you cannot WORSHIP anything less than a Supreme Being?

How can belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism) allow you to worship anything else?

You attacked my reading comprehension more than once...

I apologized, if you do not wish to accept it that is the extent of what I can do.

As far as I have seen, you have not even attempted to explain why "Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)", you have only explained why Lucifer/Satan is not a Supreme Being.

Do you understand my question?

I think it is extremely simplistic, Lucifer (in the Christian historicla context) is at best a demi-God, Masons must have a belief in a Supreme Being (Monotheism), worship of anything but God is not Monotheisim but Polytheisim.

Everyone has their own definitions of what God is, especially before entering into Freemasonry. All they ask about your views on faith and God is if you believe in God.

HOW AND WHEN DOES A MASON PROFESS TO BEING MONOTHEISTIC?????????????????

At what point in the Masonic initiation process, or Masonic membership beyond that point, does anyone ever explicitly speak of being, or having to be, "MONOTHEISTIC?"

Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.

Stop blowing smoke. Your story is CONSTANTLY changing. And you are still refusing to answer the simple question of why your OP's argument is true and valid.

edit on 9-10-2012 by Erbal because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 03:07 PM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Everyone has their own definitions of what God is, especially before entering into Freemasonry. All they ask about your views on faith and God is if you believe in God.

HOW AND WHEN DOES A MASON PROFESS TO BEING MONOTHEISTIC?????????????????

If they answer 'yes' to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being prior to being voted upon. There are other instances during the ritual where the candidate must profess a belief in God.

At what point in the Masonic initiation process, or Masonic membership beyond that point, does anyone ever explicitly speak of being, or having to be, "MONOTHEISTIC?"

It is implied and understood that Monotheism is a requirement. I have had several candidates during the investigation ask, 'I do not believe in the Christian/Muslim/Jewish version of God, is this okay?', at which point they would be asked if they believe in a single creator, i.e. a Supreme Being. As long as they believe in a God, not plurals gods there is no issue.

Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.

We have some Hindus in our lodge and they specifically stated during the investigation that they felt that everything is a manifestation of a singular God and not individual gods with unique charateristics.

Stop blowing smoke. Your story is CONSTANTLY changing. And you are still refusing to answer the simple question of why your OP's argument is true and valid.

My story has remained consistent for close to 500 posts in this thread and I have repeatedly explained why Lucifer or Satan would not be objects of worship for a Mason.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 03:36 PM by Erbal

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Everyone has their own definitions of what God is, especially before entering into Freemasonry. All they ask about your views on faith and God is if you believe in God.

HOW AND WHEN DOES A MASON PROFESS TO BEING MONOTHEISTIC?????????????????

If they answer 'yes' to the question: Do you believe in a Supreme Being prior to being voted upon. There are other instances during the ritual where the candidate must profess a belief in God.

At what point in the Masonic initiation process, or Masonic membership beyond that point, does anyone ever explicitly speak of being, or having to be, "MONOTHEISTIC?"

It is implied and understood that Monotheism is a requirement. I have had several candidates during the investigation ask, 'I do not believe in the Christian/Muslim/Jewish version of God, is this okay?', at which point they would be asked if they believe in a single creator, i.e. a Supreme Being. As long as they believe in a God, not plurals gods there is no issue.

Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.

We have some Hindus in our lodge and they specifically stated during the investigation that they felt that everything is a manifestation of a singular God and not individual gods with unique charateristics.

Stop blowing smoke. Your story is CONSTANTLY changing. And you are still refusing to answer the simple question of why your OP's argument is true and valid.

My story has remained consistent for close to 500 posts in this thread and I have repeatedly explained why Lucifer or Satan would not be objects of worship for a Mason.

Hold up, man. Do you guys explain exactly what you mean by a Supreme Being before you ask a candidate if they believe in a Supreme Being? This implied stuff is not binding in the real world... informed consent is, and you've just admitted there is no such thing as informed consent during the initiation process.

Precisely how does saying, or agreeing to the idea, there is a single creator equate to professing monotheism, and furthermore, how does this prevent anyone from worshiping Lucifer or Satan?

It seems to me that a Freemason is the same as a non-Masons; both are capable of lying, both are capable of having their own interpretations, and both are capable of believing/worshiping whatever they want.

An honor system built upon implied but unspoken requirements without real questions being asked is no tangible screening process which removes the possibility of Lucifer/Satan worshiping. Get real. Your argument is hypothetical and lacks valid logic to support it.

Thanks for your time but unless you can fill in the blanks you still refuse to fill in, I am FORCED to conclude that your arguments are invalid.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 03:46 PM by network dude

reply to post by Erbal

There are two very, very basic ways to look at this.

Do you believe that one Supreme Being created all that is, or do you believe it was all random coincidence?
I do not wish to step into the steaming pile you keep setting down in front of Augustus, but I can see it very clearly from here. A belief in one creator is a belief in God. Those that do not believe in God and think that everything was created by chance are of the opposite belief.

Once that has been established, you can split hairs all day long about the inner workings of religion, dogma, personal responsibility, and so on, but at the very basic level of does God exist in your eyes, is all that masonry is concerned with. And once you accept that God, being the creator of all, would not/could not create a being more powerful than himself, leads you to understand the OP in it's entirety.

Have a nice day.

edit to add:
after reading your last post, I think I understand your confusion. We as people, (not just masons) assume that when asking a man if he believes in God or creator, and the man answers "yes" that he understands the implications of that question. It may be an imperfect system based on the few who have put the level of thought in it that you have, but I think we can be relatively sure that we have done a fair job in weeding out the atheists.

edit on 9-10-2012 by network dude because: added information

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 04:00 PM by Saurus

Originally posted by Erbal

Simply admitting you believe in God is not even close to professing you are monotheistic. Do you allow Hindu's into Freemasonry? Boom, that right there proves Monotheism is not a requirement at all for Freemasons.

Many Hindus (in particular, the Vedanta schools of Hindu philosophy) believe that the different deities are different manifestations of the one true God, Brahman, similar to the trinity in Christianity, except that they have more/many manifestations rather than three. Such Hindus are allowed in Freemasonry.

For example, consider the following text from the Brahma Sutra:
"There is only one God, not a second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit."
~ (Brahma Sutra)

This type of belief is acceptable for entry into Freemasonry.

there are perhaps MILLIONS of Christian-Masons so isn't your line of questioning counter-intuitive to the OP's argument?

The thing is, Christian Masons are Christian, and therefore don't worship Satan, who they consider an enemy.

Non-Christians don't believe in Satan (a Christian deity), and therefore would obviously never worship him.

So after eliminating both Christians and non-Christians, there is simply no-one left to worship Satan.

edit on 9/10/2012 by Saurus because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 05:29 PM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Hold up, man. Do you guys explain exactly what you mean by a Supreme Being before you ask a candidate if they believe in a Supreme Being?

If a prospective candidate asks for clarification, as I posted above, we most certainly do, anything else would be a disservice.

Precisely how does saying, or agreeing to the idea, there is a single creator equate to professing monotheism, and furthermore, how does this prevent anyone from worshiping Lucifer or Satan?

Once again, because by defintion a Supreme Being is ominpotent and worship of any other being other then a Supreme Being is Polytheistic.

It seems to me that a Freemason is the same as a non-Masons; both are capable of lying, both are capable of having their own interpretations, and both are capable of believing/worshiping whatever they want.

If you say so.

An honor system built upon implied but unspoken requirements without real questions being asked is no tangible screening process which removes the possibility of Lucifer/Satan worshiping. Get real. Your argument is hypothetical and lacks valid logic to support it.

My arguement is far from hypothetical and I gave real world experiences which I have personally encountered to help clarify this for you.

Thanks for your time but unless you can fill in the blanks you still refuse to fill in, I am FORCED to conclude that your arguments are invalid.

I think the real issue is that you refuse to see the simple explanation and instead opt for arguing semmantics.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 05:54 PM by Erbal

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Erbal

There are two very, very basic ways to look at this.

Do you believe that one Supreme Being created all that is, or do you believe it was all random coincidence?
I do not wish to step into the steaming pile you keep setting down in front of Augustus, but I can see it very clearly from here. A belief in one creator is a belief in God. Those that do not believe in God and think that everything was created by chance are of the opposite belief.

Once that has been established, you can split hairs all day long about the inner workings of religion, dogma, personal responsibility, and so on, but at the very basic level of does God exist in your eyes, is all that masonry is concerned with. And once you accept that God, being the creator of all, would not/could not create a being more powerful than himself, leads you to understand the OP in it's entirety.

Have a nice day.

edit to add:
after reading your last post, I think I understand your confusion. We as people, (not just masons) assume that when asking a man if he believes in God or creator, and the man answers "yes" that he understands the implications of that question. It may be an imperfect system based on the few who have put the level of thought in it that you have, but I think we can be relatively sure that we have done a fair job in weeding out the atheists.
edit on 9-10-2012 by network dude because: added information

What you are saying is all people are either monotheistic or atheistic... I feel that is a false dichotomy. There is an assortment of beliefs that are not monotheistic or atheistic in nature. Wouldn't it be more accurate and all-encompassing to say you either believe in a single Supreme Being as the creator of all that is, or you do not believe in a single Supreme Being as the creator of all that is?

If regular Freemasonry sincerely considers itself to be purely monotheistic and ONLY seeks to weed out atheists, and monotheism or atheism are not the only choices, it seems illogical to conclude regular Freemasonry is exclusively monotheistic... especially when you admit your system of weeding out people is based on assumptions and unspoken implications.

The OP's argument is completely invalid unless you can demonstrate regular Freemasonry is actively trying to maintain a purely monotheistic member base.

Does this make sense?

Also, I don't know why being monotheistic means you must accept the premise that God would not or could not create a being more powerful than himself... you simply cannot be omnipotent if you lack the ability to do even 1 specific action, right?

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 06:28 PM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
What you are saying is all people are either monotheistic or atheistic... I feel that is a false dichotomy. There is an assortment of beliefs that are not monotheistic or atheistic in nature.

I made it clear that Polytheisism also exists, just not in Masonry.

The OP's argument is completely invalid unless you can demonstrate regular Freemasonry is actively trying to maintain a purely monotheistic member base.

Regular Masonry is indeed Monotheistic and only seeks to initiate candidates that ascribe to this aspect of belief.

edit on 9-10-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 06:54 PM by Erbal

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
I made it clear that Polytheisism also exists, just not in Masonry.

Regular Masonry is indeed Monotheistic and only seeks to initiate candidates that ascribe to this aspect of belief.

Do you ask new or old initiates to explain the details of their individual and personal faith/interpretation regarding God, beyond simply asking if they believe in God, at ANY point? Is it possible for people to change faiths, or claim the wrong faith intentionally or unintentionally?

It seems like you guys are not concerned with knowing the specifics of each individuals faith and interpretations... it seems like you are making assumptions and literally have no way to confirm what you are saying right now is in fact true.

reply posted on 9-10-2012 @ 08:20 PM by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Erbal
Do you ask new or old initiates to explain the details of their individual and personal faith/interpretation regarding God, beyond simply asking if they believe in God, at ANY point?

I already explained circumstances were this occured with candidates for initiation.