Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The concept of Satan pre-dates Christianity to Judaism. We see in the Book of Genesis where Jacob wrestles with an Angel - The Jewish explanation is that Jacob was wrestling with Satan.

The concept of a ruler of Hell (Satan) does not exsit in the Hebrew Bible. Please show me in the original Hebrew where the Jews had a concept of Satan. Please do not confuse Hebrew ha-satan with the Christian Satan. They two are not even remotely similar.

Originally posted by Heros_son
Lucifer is known to as "The light bearer" in freemasonry

Here

A random post on an internet forum is not a source. You will find no mention of Lucifer in Masonic ritual so the premise is erroneous.

Originally posted by shamanix2012
I bring it up because I experienced it first hand, and there is a possibility that SOME masons do worship Lucifer, Satan, ( the name doesn't matter, their actions do ). I wasn't trying to offend you, just putting another perspective here.

Then they would not be considered Masons owing to the fact that they lied when applying for membership as by the defintion I gave you Lucifer is not supreme and cannot be thought of as a Supreme Being.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


that is all i wanted an agreement on..... and i hope every other person can agree with this..

and frankly... i dont think any other thing is important to be touched upon other than knowin to love the true god, and in trusting that he will make everything ok..

because us talking about what we feel satan is, or what the devil or is what masonic teachings really are for, or even the political talk, and also about what you are going to do today, or all the subjects that can be talked about! any of that load of gibberish.. it truly is not worth any of our time as mankind, but we are still stuck on thinking and talking about it all....

the truth is that we ALL, need to focus on loving and trusting god, and theres a gut feeling in me that is telling me times are going to change and in this near future, more than ever before for our mindkind, do we need to start focusing on loving GOD, and trusting GOD.. and not to worry how things are going to turn out! because it will all be fine, and this devil, or evil that is out there, whatever you want to believe it is.... is not going to be apart of our lives! non of it!...

unless you want it to be.. in that case.. im sorry hahaha

but yeah.... are there any disagreements on this post of mine?

Originally posted by willrush
...and theres a gut feeling in me that is telling me times are going to change and in this near future...

Time are always changing, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Change is unavoidable, change is good, change brings challenges and surmounting challenges is one of the best attributes of the human race.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

 

Ignoring the obvious mistranslation of St. Jerome's 4th and 5th century conversions of the Vetus Latina and the Hebrew Bible and the subsequent misuses by Milton and Aligiehri the knowledgeable person will conclude that the word Lucifer does not refer to Satan but the planet Venus.

All regular Masons are required to have a belief in a Supreme Being, i.e. God, and the planet Venus, whom the Romans refered to as Lucifer, certainly does not qualify.

Neither does Satan, who besides being a purely Christian concept, cannot, in the historical context, be considered a 'Supreme Being'. The historical Satan of Christian mythos was created by God and is therefore subordinate to God and defacto, not 'Supreme'. Letting common sense prevail the intelligent contemplator of this topic would realize that there can only be one Supreme Being if one deigns to believe in such; only one ominscient, ominpotent and omnipresent creator of the Universe. To imply that Satan (Lucifer) is somehow on par with God is to argue that God is neither all-powerful nor supreme.

This would imply a situation where God is neither omnipotent nor unique and not worthy of the respect and adoration due to God by every Mason. It therefore becomes quite obvious why any Mason obligated to believe in God would not and could not call God by the name Lucifer or Satan.

 

I do not agree with you, Brother. God, and his definition, is subjective to the individual...not to ancient writings and concepts.

I believe in the Great Architect of the Universe...but not by your definition of God.

Originally posted by phantomjack
I do not agree with you, Brother. God, and his definition, is subjective to the individual...not to ancient writings and concepts.

Exactly my point, God is eternal, Lucifer (and Satan) is a manufactured creation of the Christian era.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


you are right!..... change is happening right in front of our face....right now, nothing is ever the same.. and i always take it as for the better... even in dark times.. there must be someone to see the light in it all ,ya know?


but what i meant by change... is that its not going to just be a physical change... but a spiritual change.. in my humble opinion....

but you are right..

nothing is going to stop for us... my belief is that even when we think its all over.. when were finished with our physical reality.. when were by the side of GOD, there are still going to be beings in the place that we are in now.

but who knows.. its all so interesting isnt it! haha

Originally posted by MaxBlack
Thanks for the thread and for taking the time to offer what few could communicate in such a brief, but such concise manner. Truly refreshing to come across. Thanks again.

I am glad you appreciated it, thank you.

The concept of a ruler of Hell (Satan) does not exsit in the Hebrew Bible. Please show me in the original Hebrew where the Jews had a concept of Satan.

I already did. If you read the Jewish commentaries on the Book of Genesis, they describe that the Angel wrestling with Jacob is, in fact, Satan. This is just one instance. There are actually 13 specific instances of Satan ("ha-Satan") in the Old Testament.

Please do not confuse Hebrew ha-satan with the Christian Satan. They two are not even remotely similar.

Again, the concept of Satan is Jewish in origin. Judaism preceded Christianity, not the other way around.

If the Christians distorted the concept, that's no reflection on the original, intended meaning as used in Jewish tradition.

You should be very, very specific as to which "Satan" to which you are referring, because it has different meaning and interpretation to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

The secrets of the masons and there worship of satan revealed...
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43:27

59:55 - Worship bail?


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1:45

3:53
17:15
28:00

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5:10
8:00
21:00
39:00
1:33:00
1:46:00
2:12:20


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Mah Ha Bone.... What the builder ........... ohhhhhh scaryyyyyy

I'm just gonna leave it at that. Let people make up there own minds ha ha

reply to post by shamanix2012

And this has little to no relevance to Freemasonry. It is only rumor, speculation, and defamation.

Originally posted by willrush
so masons, and the religions think they believe in god, and want to, but at the same time, they believe in the wrong god, and they worship the wrong god....

How can anyone say what god another beliefs in? How do you know that I believe in the "wrong god"?

reply to post by shamanix2012

So what a family does is not indicative of Freemasonry.

reply to post by Heros_son

Lucis = Light

Anno Lucis = Year of Light

reply to post by Heros_son

No, Lucifer is Latin for "light-bearer". Nowhere in Freemasonry though does any ritual say that we follow Lucifer.

reply to post by r2d246

Bill Schnoebelen is a liar and a deceiver who fabricated his own Masonic resume so he could build some kind of credibility among the religiously intolerant to slander the Freemasons. Using his own book, his own word, here is what his life would look like:



If you believe a man like this, I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you. Those who listen to men like him deserve to be misled. During all the videos, he put out misleading or false information. I mean the guy and the hostess just completely fabricated a great deal.

At 59:55, he talks of "Baal" not "bail". There is no truth behind this claim either. Nor does he know anything of Baal and its references in the Bible.

I love he tries to pass himself off as an expert who pierced the "inner circles" of Freemasonry. He tries to use vague, general statistics, and yet he'd be hard-pressed to prove anything...including his Masonic membership. Child molestation is not something perpetuated by Freemasonry or the mythical Illuminati. The religiously intolerant and insecure will make whatever up to suit their agenda.

Billy knows about as much of Freemasonry, as he does spirituality, the Christian religion, and ancient history...absolutely nothing.

In the 3rd video, at 5:10, what is wrong with having a star in the middle of the Square & Compasses? Is the star or the number 5 not relevant to Christianity? At 8:00, I attend Lodge because I enjoy the Fellowship as well as the ritual and the history of Freemasonry.

I love how this guy says that so many terms are "Masonic". "Oriented" is not a Masonic term, to believe this is to be ignorant of the etymology of the term. At 21:00, the Masonic Lodge is oriented in imitation of King Solomon's Temple. Our entrance is in the West as it would have been with King Solomon's Temple. I do love how he tries to twist everything.

I don't know why anyone would have freaked out if a candidate said beer in the Lodge, in reality we'd probably have laughed. We do have a sense of humor (we have to to deal with the stupidity that is sometimes thrown at us by anti's).

At 1:33:00, so liberty and reason are exclusive and different? One can be reasonable (rational) and be a man of Faith. This guy is a Grade A moron. Again, he knows nothing of Templar history (or facts) or history in general.

As to the last video:

What a fascinating piece of fiction that has been cut-up and edited. Whoever authored this video cropped it so much as to manipulate information. Deceitful. Janet Wintermute is a member of a clandestine, irregular body of "Freemasonry" and she is entitled to her beliefs, but her beliefs do not constitute fact or policy of Freemasonry worldwide. Calvi and the whole P2 Lodge is irregular, clandestine, fake "freemasonry". P2 lost their charter in the 70s from the Grand Orient, which itself was not recognized until the 90s. P2 was not Freemasonry. They were a corrupt group of men not involved in the values and teachings of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by shamanix2012

 

And this has little to no relevance to Freemasonry. It is only rumor, speculation, and defamation.

So experiencing something first hand is rumor, speculation and when spoken of is defamation? you people are truly lost, by all means continue on your path of false truths. If you bothered to read my posts with your blinders off, I was not defaming freemasonry, I was saying that EVERY group and organisation in society has a few bad seeds that can and will be corrupted...... guess what, that includes your beloved freemasonry as well. Just because some children light fires doesn't make every child a pyro, get it ?

If you think the masons are immune to infiltration by the dark side, you haven't thought hard enough.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The concept of Satan pre-dates Christianity to Judaism. We see in the Book of Genesis where Jacob wrestles with an Angel - The Jewish explanation is that Jacob was wrestling with Satan.

The concept of a ruler of Hell (Satan) does not exsit in the Hebrew Bible. Please show me in the original Hebrew where the Jews had a concept of Satan. Please do not confuse Hebrew ha-satan with the Christian Satan. They two are not even remotely similar.

The scape-goat, Azazel/Samael. Have you not read the old testament?

The Jews would bring two beasts to sacrifice, one to God and the other was sent into the wilderness to mock the one who sought to place themselves above God.

Scapegoat
en.wikipedia.org...

Scapegoat (i.e. "escape-goat") derives from the common English translation of the Hebrew term azazel (Hebrew: עזאזל) which occurs in Leviticus 16:8 after the prefix la- (Hebrew לַ "for").

The Tau symbol and hexagram (Solomon's seal) are all associated with Saturn the planetary body commonly associated with the devil. The hexagram is a play on the Biblical teaching of the salt of the Earth, as salt is a 3 dimensional cube while a hexagram is a 2dimensional representation of a cube.

The morning star is also the Sun. Lodges facing the East hailing the rising Sun is clear evidence of the importance of this.

You need to fact check before you post.

And this hatred towards Bill S is misdirected as he was indeed a 32nd degree mason who was to honored as a knight of freemasonry, clearly he was highly respected until defecting.

Also his associations with Mormonism is not that strange as Mormonism was founded by Freemasons.

Freemasonry is connected to wicca through the Templar's in Scottland and their association with the 'green man' (as seen in Rosalyn Chapel).

Testaments against the Templars (freemasonry's forerunners) showed the Templars to have head effigies in their temples which is heavily associated with Grail legacy.

The 1st degree of initiation has a mason-to-be dress up as a heretic would be prior to being burned at the stake during the inquisition, what would be the point of this if not to link the Craft to other interpretations of the Craft?

You would know this if you ever read commonly available literature written by Masons such as The Hiram Key or The Temple and the Lodge. Or you could always reference Albert Pike and his declaration that Masons worship Lucifer in Morals and Dogma, or masonry's greatest philosopher, Manly P Hall, who stated that when one masters masonry the seething energies of Lucifer are at their command.

I propose that after discussion with several ATS masons and those in the two major metropolis cities of my state that most masons do not know jack S about the history or meaning of their symbols, rituals, or history and so their testimony is not very reliable.

Originally posted by shamanix2012

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by shamanix2012

 

And this has little to no relevance to Freemasonry. It is only rumor, speculation, and defamation.

So experiencing something first hand is rumor, speculation and when spoken of is defamation? you people are truly lost, by all means continue on your path of false truths. If you bothered to read my posts with your blinders off, I was not defaming freemasonry, I was saying that EVERY group and organisation in society has a few bad seeds that can and will be corrupted...... guess what, that includes your beloved freemasonry as well. Just because some children light fires doesn't make every child a pyro, get it ?

If you think the masons are immune to infiltration by the dark side, you haven't thought hard enough.

Just to give you a little help here, if you were in the circle with dead cats surrounding you, what you tell would be first hand information. But since you are recounting what some girl you know who may have been sexually abused tells as her fantastic story to you is second hand information. And if you heard it from her brother, it would be third hand. See how that works?

Either way, she was pulling your leg or if that did happen, her family should have been turned over to the authorities. Nothing in masonry involves satanic, child molestation, dead cats, or Lucifer related stuff. But great story bro. Everyone loves a good satanic cat story.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli


Bill Schelnobelen was and is a fraud. There is no record of him being initiated, passed, or raised in the lodge he claims to have been. I checked myself. I found out that the lodge he claims to have been raised at was absorbed by another lodge. I called the secretary of the new lodge and asked him to check and verify Billy's credentials. I even gave him the dates I got straight from an e-mail from Bill himself. I think Bill was just hoping nobody would ever check, as long as he name dropped correctly. So a fraud he is.

But forget all about that, just look at this and explain how anyone could be part of all these groups at the same time and not be a fraud looking to slander any and all for profit?


Nuff said.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
There are actually 13 specific instances of Satan ("ha-Satan") in the Old Testament.

Ha-satan is not even remotely close to the Christian version of Satan which was codified in the 13th century. In Jewish tradition ha-satan ('the accuser', 'the adversary') is not a proper noun (capitalized) it is a common noun (un-capitilized) and thus does not represent a sentient being, it is a role given by God. It is a position taken by one of Gods minions and is not, as the Christian mythos describes, a being that rivals and challenges God and is irreversibly removed from God's love. In the Old Testament ha-satan is never shown as having any authority other than what God gave it and can not act without God's permission.

Again, the concept of Satan is Jewish in origin. Judaism preceded Christianity, not the other way around.

No, the concept of a fallen angel that rules in Hell was never part of the Jewish religion. Please cite references if you feel otherwise.

If the Christians distorted the concept, that's no reflection on the original, intended meaning as used in Jewish tradition.

In Biblical Judaism nothing could be removed from God's grace. There is no concept of 'falling' away from God, God is completely omnipotent and his angels, unlike man, do not have free will. This was God's gift to man and was not shared by the angels.

You should be very, very specific as to which "Satan" to which you are referring, because it has different meaning and interpretation to Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

The concept Christian concept of Satan, as borrowed by the Mulims, is nearly the same, this is the one I refer to as it is the only one to refer to.

Originally posted by r2d246
The secrets of the masons and there worship of satan revealed...

You really need to learn to cite reputable sources, not someone who claims to be a vampire (among other things).

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The scape-goat, Azazel/Samael. Have you not read the old testament?

There is no concept of a fallen angel ruling in hell in the Old Testament. Did you read it?

The Tau symbol and hexagram (Solomon's seal) are all associated with Saturn the planetary body commonly associated with the devil.

I would like for you to explain how Solomon could have associated anything with a concept that would not be created for more than a millenia after his death.

And this hatred towards Bill S is misdirected as he was indeed a 32nd degree mason who was to honored as a knight of freemasonry, clearly he was highly respected until defecting.

Who cares about his Scottish Rite Degrees? You can get to the 32nd in a day.

Or you could always reference Albert Pike and his declaration that Masons worship Lucifer in Morals and Dogma...

Please post the quote.

...or masonry's greatest philosopher, Manly P Hall, who stated that when one masters masonry the seething energies of Lucifer are at their command.

Too bad he wrote this 30 years before becoming a Mason. Do your homework.

I propose that after discussion with several ATS masons and those in the two major metropolis cities of my state that most masons do not know jack S about the history or meaning of their symbols, rituals, or history and so their testimony is not very reliable.

Says the person who believes Bill, thinks Jews believed in Satan and does not verify his facts prior to posting them.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The concept of Satan pre-dates Christianity to Judaism. We see in the Book of Genesis where Jacob wrestles with an Angel - The Jewish explanation is that Jacob was wrestling with Satan.

The concept of a ruler of Hell (Satan) does not exsit in the Hebrew Bible. Please show me in the original Hebrew where the Jews had a concept of Satan. Please do not confuse Hebrew ha-satan with the Christian Satan. They two are not even remotely similar.

If you can't see and understand that they are one and the same, how can you so boastfully state that your "supreme god" isn't it? Don't confuse the "popular" view of Satan with the scriptural view because otherwise you will continue claiming that they are two different 'personas'. He is a liar and murderer from the beginning and both the Hebrew works and gospel of Christ declare this throughout. Insisting that they are not one and the same is just another way of calling the True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, a liar. Freemasons, in their big Olylymic production, told those with eyes to see who exactly they worship. Despite the inordinate amount of flames and destruction promised to this world, you still feel the need to appear saintly. As I watched that giant square and compass framing the rising fiery Phoenix, I couldn't help feeling sorrowful that so many former Christian men have betrayed not only themselves as Israel but that they will continue denying Christ Jesus until the bitter end. As you watch the coming destruction of your fellow countrymen, will you still keep up this charade?