Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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reply to post by KingPanzergrenadier
 

So original. We're not the enemy. My fight is against the ignorant, the fanatics/extremists, and tyrants. If you fit into one of those categories then of course we're your enemy.

If you want to take us down, I say bring it on. Some kid behind a computer screen doesn't frighten me.




posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 10:31 PM
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Originally posted by KingPanzergrenadier
Freemasons are evil Satan worshipers! They are the enemy! Down with Freemasonry! Down with the Beast!


It is sadly futile KingPanz. The spirit of deception is huge and the truth is not revealed to them anyways unless they reach a specific allocated 33rd degree. Although it is apparent even in the lowest of levels to those of us who study the ancient mystery schools..................it is not apparent to them. I have seen the power of the enemy at work even in my father who was steeped in Master Masonry for many years.

I was fortunate enough to make acquaintence with 3 men who were ex 33rd degree Masons from different parts of the Country. They left once they discovered the truth in horror, shock and betrayal. None of them knew each other and their accounts all coincided. They wanted to meet with my father to speak with him with regards to revealing what they had discovered in hopes to shed light so that my dad could escape the great stronghold.

My father who was so entrenched and bound would have nothing of it and became infuriated wanting only to protect his brotherhood. There is a huge story here which I won't go into at this point. It is not just this example that I learned of the truth from those 3 men but there is simply so much more to this that I could never elaborate on.

The truth will be revealed and that is inevitable. Sadly...............those who defend 'their brotherhood' so fiercely will once and for all learn of the truth. In my experience many of these men are good people who have been purposefully kept from the truth. They can serve the Masons for 20 plus years without ever learing of the truth. In fact they can serve for the remainder of their lives having the truth withheld from them with ease.

Although it is obvious to one who studies symbolism and the ancient mystical schools, I don't believe it is obvious to them. This is one example of satan's most deceptive work at hand.

I wish them all emancipation and the knowledge of the truth. It is a burden in my heart because I have met many who truly and honestly don't know the truth of what they are a part of and like the rest of us many are decent folk believing that they are doing their part in society and for one another. It is a great and sorrowfull deception.

The burden is heavy indeed with great sadness and futility. Everyone is free to live the choices of their will in the end.

Ksig you need not respond to this because your on your journey and I can do nothing but respect that, which I do. I wish you the Spirit of Truth for the revealing of all deceptions in your endeavours through this world. To Networkdude, you have always been very respectfull and kind in what I have seen of your responses. Thank you, it has not gone unnoticed. I wish you both the discovery of the truth that will truly set you free.

As for my father, I saw nothing but terror and regret in his eyes when last I saw him before he died.
edit on 24-9-2012 by Egyptia because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 01:45 AM
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reply to post by Egyptia
 

What KingPanzergrenadier is talking about is nothing short of fascism. He is using propaganda and fear to coerce the destruction of a private, Constitutionally protected organization. We have done nothing wrong other than run afoul of the intolerant, extremists, and those with oppressive views.

You say there is a "spirit of deception" and yet the only deception I have come across in my time as a Freemason is from the anti's who perpetuate, cultivate, and fabricate lies to suit the needs of their fascist agenda. You say we are ignorant of these "facts" because we are not a 33rd and yet none of you are. How can you hold such arrogant views that you can justly stand there and say we're ignorant of what happens "high up" and yet yourself not be a member and know all of it? Isn't that a hypocrisy and double standard? Do you think yourself so much more superior than us? I think you do.

All anti's say they "know 33rd's" and the same old story, and yet they always fall short of proving anything. Throughout many of these threads several of us Masons have asked where in our rituals any of your accusations occur, and as of yet, we've seen nothing. Your accusations and opinions mean little as they are not facts.

Plus, there is much more to Freemasonry outside of the 33rd degree and the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.


Ksig you need not respond to this because your on your journey and I can do nothing but respect that, which I do.

With due respect, I will still respond as I am very opinionated.
edit on 25-9-2012 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 04:50 AM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09

No one cheapened the conversation but yourself. Very simple - Don't make derogatory comments. Fair is fair.


Derogatory is a whole different ball park to accusations of anti-semitism. And you know it. Cheap is cheap.


Here is what the Jewish Sages have to say about this passage:

"As is apparent from the rest of the narrative, these three men were actually angels in the "guise" of men. The Hebrew word for angel, malach, means "agent"." (Stone Edition Chumash, p. 24).

Read that again - 3 men in the guise of angels. Agents of G-d. Good grief. What exactly are your academic credentials again?


I am a Professor of Ancient Near Eastern Religions. I'm guessing I'm more qualified than you.
Now, "good grief," Cookie, can you not read the transliterated Hebrew in front of you? What word sticks out like a sore thumb? Don't quote me a sage, quote me the actual passage from Genesis 18 as I have done. Can you manage that? Or do you need a sage to quote it for you?



I already explained the Orthodox Jewish interpretation of the term, Israel. Do you actually have a different interpretation, or are you going to just blindly keep repeating the term Israel to yourself in this thread for kicks and giggles?


I'm beginning to worry about you, now. Don't you remember arguing vehemently with my professional interpretation just a page back?




I don't recall you ever stating that you were a theologian by training, or even Jewish for that matter. Obviously, our interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures are vastly different. I side with the Jewish Sages, and you side with yourself.


Yes, I did state my ability to read, write and understand Hebrew as it is part of my job to be able to do so. It was also compulsory in order for me to attain my Phd, along with being able to do the same in several other ancient near eastern languages. So yes, I side with my own qualified opinion, which has obviously been seen fit to promote to Professor.

No, I am not Jewish in any way. I follow a Sumerian cthonic tradition predating Judaism by a long, long time. I am a "Satanist" to use some terminology you might understand. But not in any way that you might understand Him.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
So, in your opinion, angels are just figments of one's imagination. If that is what you believe, so be it. You don't need Josephus to justify your opinion.


I do not believe in angels, however, that is not the discussion. You wnated a Jewish scholar that disagreed, Josephus is one and he did disagree as he used the word 'vision' to describe the struggle Jacob had with his opponent.


The real question is whether you believe that Jacob/Israel is an adversary of G-d, or not an adversary.


Why do I need to believe that he is an adversary of God as that word was not used in Genesis?


Yes, but to you, this manifestation cannot be physical. It can be mental - as in a dream or vision - but not physical. I think you made that pretty clear.


No, I pointed out where other scholars interpreted this as a physical confrontation of Jacob against himself where he confronts his manifested yetzer hara and others where it is a physical conflict with God.


Yes, this is the rationalist approach. Maimonides wasn't big on mysticism.


I find the rationalist approach to be much more palatable then fighting with a fallen angel that did not even exist in the Jewish theology of the time.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Egyptia
The truth will be revealed and that is inevitable.


What 'truth' will be revealed and what does your entire anecdotal story have to do with the thread topic?



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 07:34 PM
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Derogatory is a whole different ball park to accusations of anti-semitism. And you know it. Cheap is cheap.

Let's call it both derogatory and anti-semitic. I'll quote what you said:



I'm sorry you and your sages can't understand the spiritual significance of that. I'm sorry that you and your sages didn't learn from your patriarch, because you and they can't understand the fact that even Jacob tells you this himself.

Here you trash the Jewish Sages in a quite condescending and offensive manner. Either you are very rude, or have no sense of respecting the religious beliefs of others. Either way, it wasn't kosher!



I am a Professor of Ancient Near Eastern Religions. I'm guessing I'm more qualified than you.


Professors shouldn't make assumptions without knowing facts. Did you miss that lecture? I don't see how your alleged credentials makes you more qualified than Rashi, or any of the other Jewish Sages.

And, being that you are not Jewish, and have no Jewish training or background, means that you are interpreting Holy Writ from a non-Jewish, even secular perspective.

It could get even weirder than that, because you later state your association with a belief system tied to Satanism -- so yes, we are definitely at different vantage points! Not only are you not Jewish, but you hold a belief system that is apparently completely contrary to traditional Judaism.



Now, "good grief," Cookie, can you not read the transliterated Hebrew in front of you? What word sticks out like a sore thumb? Don't quote me a sage, quote me the actual passage from Genesis 18 as I have done. Can you manage that? Or do you need a sage to quote it for you?


3 men in the guise of angels, per the Jewish Sages. Even Matthew Henry, the world-renowned biblical commentator, states as much. Somehow, professor, your qualifications aren't adding up!



I'm beginning to worry about you, now. Don't you remember arguing vehemently with my professional interpretation just a page back?


Mumbling the word, Israel, is hardly professorial, professor.



So yes, I side with my own qualified opinion, which has obviously been seen fit to promote to Professor.


Yeah, that's not saying much, now is it? Especially on a public forum.



No, I am not Jewish in any way. I follow a Sumerian cthonic tradition predating Judaism by a long, long time. I am a "Satanist" to use some terminology you might understand. But not in any way that you might understand Him.


The truth reveals itself. Well, at least we know understand your vantage point, and why you are so vehement about criticizing and condemning the Jewish Sages! Here I am debating a Satanist! Who would have thunk?



I do not believe in angels, however, that is not the discussion.


You're just quoting people that share your belief system. Nothing wrong with that. I quoted Jewish Sages that disagreed, and support my belief system. That's called having a healthy debate, my friend.



Why do I need to believe that he is an adversary of God as that word was not used in Genesis?


The question is directed at you, personally - your personal belief system, not the Bible.

Do you personally believe that Jacob is an adversary of G-d? It's a pretty simple yes or no answer. Or maybe you want to qualify your answer, and that's fine, too.



I find the rationalist approach to be much more palatable then fighting with a fallen angel that did not even exist in the Jewish theology of the time.


I understand. There are other well-known theological approaches besides the rationalist approach to interpreting Holy Writ.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
The question is directed at you, personally - your personal belief system, not the Bible.

Do you personally believe that Jacob is an adversary of G-d? It's a pretty simple yes or no answer. Or maybe you want to qualify your answer, and that's fine, too.


Adversary in what sense? In the scope of the conversation, where we are constantly refering to the Bible, the first definition I think of is ha-satan who is refered to as 'the adversary'. If this is the case then no, I do no think Jacob is an adversary of God. If we are arguing a strictly metaphysical point then Jacob can in a way be considered an adversary of God and himself as he is not a very mroally upright person for the portion of his life leading up to the event in question.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by CodyOutlaw
 


Sorry i'm just jumping in here towards the end of your debate with CookieMonster09 but i have a question for you CodyOutlaw are you a Freemason????

Because if you are we found one Mason who worships Satan.....

Like i said in my previous post no were does it say in the official standard guide lines that Mason's must worship Satan/Lucifer when they take the official oaths on any official degree but i'm sure it has happen some place some time some where just by the mathematics of the situation and if CodyOutlaw is a Mason well there you go.






edit on 25-9-2012 by King Seesar because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 26 2012 @ 12:06 PM
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Originally posted by King Seesar
Sorry i'm just jumping in here towards the end of your debate with CookieMonster09 but i have a question for you CodyOutlaw are you a Freemason????



Originally posted by CodyOutlaw
That's great, dude.
But, I'm not a freemason.
I'm just a humble professor.
Source


Because if you are we found one Mason who worships Satan.....
But he's not, so you didn't.

Furthermore,

I'm not a Crowleyite; I serve Ningishzidda, a Cthonic deity of the Sumerian tradition (or as the Egyptians called Him, Anpu/Anubis). So, there's no "Do as thou wilt" in my religion. In fact, it's much more like, "Don't even think about doing as thou wilt, and make sure you behave impeccably." It's completely anti-hedonism. I use the term theistic Satanist, because Satan is what He became known as much later on, and it gives people a recognizable reference.when they're talking to me about it. For the faith, it was a long and personal journey, so no - I've always known where my love and loyalties lie, without doubt.
Source



posted on Sep, 26 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by JoshNorton
 



Sorry about that Josh i wasen't sure if he was or not that's why i was asking thanks for pointing that out to me.

As far as the topic gos i think it's a good thread cuts right to the slack and probably should be stickied beings it's a question that gets brought up alot in my opinion and we have a good fourm for such a debate.


Even tho CodyOutlaw is not a Mason i still stand by my statement that some where in the world at some time there has been a Freemason who worshiped Satan they probably had some theory where he was a supreme being Masonry has been around long enough that the odds would dictate this, my two cents anyway.



posted on Sep, 26 2012 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by KSigMason
 


So now anyone against Freemasonry is a fascist? >>>>


Back to the Luciferian/Satanism issue.

The problem I have is with all the Daath (knowledge, associated with the dog star Sirius, but also the hexagram) ,I don't want to use the word worship here so, obsession. Daath refers to, or is, the omnipresence knowledge of God throughout the Sephiroth, not just in one Sephirah. This is why Daath means knowledge. Daath includes the first conscious knowledge, hokhmah, of Kether down to the last distinct and created reflection of the Sephiroth. In Binah Daath is not longer hokhmah, pure contemplation, but becomes accessible; in Binah, onto cosmological intelligence becomes the common intellection of the seven lower Sephirahs by which universal creation is conceived, constructed, and ruled. Even though Daath appears vaguely in the Kabbalistic tree it is not a Sephirah, or the eleventh Sephirah of the Sephiroth; ten Sephirahs complete the Sephiroth and Daath is the knowledge throughout.

Sephirah, plural, Sephiroth (Hebrew "emanations"), used in Kabbalistic lore the term implies a divine emanation from God; on the Tree of Life there are ten, the Sephiroth, from God.

Why would it be left out? This is where Christians (well the none fanatics) get the anti-Masonry as it does imply one fallen or not of God. It seems to be the bastard of the tree of life. The Biblical Lucifer was elevated above the other angles and was cast down for making merchandise of his knowledge and attempting to become God.

Also concerning is that it is located in what is called the Abyss. Now the Christians have been informed to be wary the angle of the abyss.

I am more concerned about masons reaching for the abyss or 'knowledge' though just one pillar as a the Dajjal who is referenced to being blind in one eye (their left eye to be particular). The specific path being splendor, strength, and intelligence . Interesting the tarot cards associated with said path are; aeon, sun, devil, hanged man, adjustment, and lovers.

Many of which can be identified in Masonic ritual. Hanged man is in the first initiation ritual of a mason before being raised by the lions grip. Freemasonic literature often speaking of the new age (aeon) and the sun does not need much expounding upon as the temples are situated east to west with the worshipful master residing in the position of the rising sun.

Now devil . . . . well, you tell me


Peace, Mercy, and Wisdom



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

I did not say that, but many that I have come across many with fascist thoughts and words. This sub-forum is filled with examples of this. I speak of freedom and your kind speaks of restriction by means of fear and coercion. The only way by which KingPanzergrenadier would get his way would be fascism, cruel, and disgusting means.


The Biblical Lucifer was elevated above the other angles and was cast down for making merchandise of his knowledge and attempting to become God.

The Biblical Lucifer was only a disgraced Babylonian King.

So you're afraid of attaining knowledge?


Many of which can be identified in Masonic ritual.

Please identify these rituals.


Freemasonic literature often speaking of the new age (aeon)...

What ritual though? What literature are you speaking of?


and the sun does not need much expounding upon as the temples are situated east to west with the worshipful master residing in the position of the rising sun.

And yet our Lodges are said to be situated in the same manner King Solomon's Temple was.



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
The Biblical Lucifer was elevated above the other angles and was cast down for making merchandise of his knowledge and attempting to become God.


There is no angel in the Bible called Lucifer. Once again, the concept of Satan was not codified until 1213 at the Fourth Lateran Council and is rather modern mythology as compared to the Bible. The entire anecdote about 'becoming God' was foreign to the writers of the Bible as the idea of a 'fallen' angel was not a belief that exisited when the Bible was written. Feel free to post the original Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew texts if you feel otherwise.

Satan (Lucifer) as a fallen angel and challenger to God is purely a Christian concept.



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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I agree. Lucifer is simply the 'light giver' in latin. It is only through a connotation with christianity that the word ever became linked with evil as it was at some pointed deemed to be another suitable name for satan, as his role as an angel before he fell was to do with giving light, perhaps tied in someway along the line with venus, the morning star which both it and lucifer mean. The connection is clear between the two. However its up for further debate which one of the two meanings masons follow



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


Azazel



Hebrew Leviticus
Main article: scapegoat

Leviticus 16:8–10 reads:

"8and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. 9And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; 10while the goat designated by lot for Azazel shall be left standing alive before the Lord, to make expiation with it and to send it off to the wilderness for Azazel."

The ESV provides the footnote "16:8 The meaning of Azazel is uncertain; possibly the name of a place or a demon, traditionally a scapegoat; also verses 10, 26". Most scholars accept the indication of some kind of demon or deity,[6] however Judit M. Blair notes that this is an argument without supporting contemporary text evidence.[7]

Ida Zatelli (1998)[8] has suggested that the Hebrew ritual parallels pagan practice of sending a scapegoat into the desert on the occasion of a royal wedding found in two ritual texts in archives at Ebla (24th C. BC). A she-goat with a silver bracelet hung from her neck was driven forth into the wasteland of 'Alini' by the community.[9] There is no mention of an "Azazel".[10]

According to The Expositior's Bible Commentary, Azazel is the Hebrew word for scapegoat. This is the only place that the Hebrew word is found in the whole Hebrew Old Testament. It says that the Book of Enoch, (extra-biblical Jewish theological literature, dated around 200 B.C.) is full of demonology and reference to fallen angels. The EBC (Vol 2) says that this text uses late Aramaic forms for these names which indicates that The Book of Enoch most likely relies upon the Hebrew Leviticus text rather than the Leviticus text being reliant upon the Book of Enoch.[11] This Hebrew word is simply a term meaning "a goat to go away" - in other words a "scapegoat" - in verse 20-22 it describes what this accomplished by symbolically placing the sins of Israel upon the goat and then sending it to the desert and releasing it.
In Greek and later translations

The translators of the Greek Septuagint understood the Hebrew term as meaning the sent away, and read:"8and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat (Greek apompaios dat.).

9And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering; 10but the goat on which the lot of the sent away one fell shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away (Greek eis ten apompen acc.) into the wilderness."

Following the Septuagint, the Latin Vulgate,[12] Martin Luther[13] and the King James Bible also give readings such as Young's Literal Translation: 'And Aaron hath given lots over the two goats, one lot for Jehovah, and one lot for a goat of departure;'

This is rendered Za-za-e'il (the strong one against/of God), according to the Syriac Pe#ta Version, as in Qumran fragment 4Q180.[14]


And in regards to what rituals the masonic initiation of the first degree a noose is placed around the candidates neck.

The New Age Magazine (Scottish Rite)
archive.org...



I did not say that, but many that I have come across many with fascist thoughts and words. This sub-forum is filled with examples of this. I speak of freedom and your kind speaks of restriction by means of fear and coercion. The only way by which KingPanzergrenadier would get his way would be fascism, cruel, and disgusting means.


LoL since you still throw me in with the fascist lot please provide evidence otherwise you are merely throwing insults which is rather immature.



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
And in regards to what rituals the masonic initiation of the first degree a noose is placed around the candidates neck.
Not a noose. If any lodge in my state was caught tying it as a noose, they'd lose their charter pretty damned fast…



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 

I'm casting you in with the lot as you seem to be defending his position.



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Azazel


Azazel has nothing to do with Satan, what is the relevance of your post?



posted on Sep, 27 2012 @ 10:35 PM
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Masons just need to realize that they are held suspect in one way or another at one time or another by many non masons and..its their fault and they should just realize and accept it as part of being in a clandestine organization.

Most will never fully trust those who " have secrets" it bears a negative and advertising " hey I / we have secrets" and expecting everybody to just accept that is plain stupid.

Loyalty vs. popularity I have seen so many masons denounce Pike and Hall and other masons because they wrote things or practiced things that they feel just is'nt good PR for "today's" masonry...it was OK 200 years ago, 100 years ago but now not PC.

Also accept the fact not everybody is buying into the "we are not worshipping Lucifer schtick" it's too pitchy. still not believing you...just accept it.

sometimes the best way to get accepted is just come out of your closet and confess " hey we used to worship lucifer, trying to get away from that now" or just flat out fess up be a man about it.

and if you really are a "society of secrets" which is not out to gain more members, more dues money, more power then why all of the advertising, ^Gv on the backs of your cars, signs, rings, etc.... I know denial again but it is advertising to get people to ask questions, inspire curiousity, increase membership etc.






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